Van Life - Sleeping Above / Near Batteries Inverter etc

[BlackWaterPark]

I'd be more wary of the inverter moreso than the batteries, especially transformer based units. By their very nature, they create strong (relatively) EM fields. My inverter is a low frequency unit with a 45lb transformer in it, and it buries the needle of my Trifield T2 em/ef/rf meter within 4 feet or so. Strong magnetic fields have been linked to detrimental physiological phenomea, but generally when there are two or more EM fields which are operating in the same area, from what I've read. You might find a little research into what are known as "kreb houses" interesting, where certain houses were studied (in Germany in particular of I'm not mistaken) which had an uncanny history of high rates of cancer and other ailments, and it was found that the common thread was that they sat over or very close to crossing veins of underground water. There was also, on a related note, research into those really twisted up, super knotty, lumpy trees you see every now and again which also found a very high correlation to crossing veins of underground water, which carry electromagnetic energy (which is, I'm pretty certain, why dowsing works). I used to live in a house that way back in the yard had one of those trees, and whenever I went over and spent any amount of time next to it, I'd always feel a little nauseous...that's what got me looking into the whole matter to begin with.

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[12VoltInstalls]

especially transformer based units. By their very nature, they create strong (relatively) EM fields. My inverter is a low frequency unit with a 45lb transformer in it, and it buries the needle of my Trifield T2 em/ef/rf meter within 4 feet or so.

So then we should ask the question: is the strength of the emf you speak - of which proximity is probably not 24/7 in most circumstances- or is it a continuous exposure that would create a risk?

Between cell phones, radio, tv, data transmission, air lane monitoring, gps, wifi, alarms, power lines….. we are continually immersed in a soup bath of radiation every second of the day.

 

[BlackWaterPark]

So then we should ask the question: is the strength of the emf you speak - of which proximity is probably not 24/7 in most circumstances- or is it a continuous exposure that would create a risk?

Good question. I get the impression that, from what I've read, two emf wherein one is not significantly stronger than the other and are "travelling" in sufficiently oppositional directions, can create a twisted and entangled (for lack of a better phrase) field which could complicate things for cellular growth. I would put this impression a hair or two above conjecture though, all in all. I found the em energy that underground veins of water carry to be very interesting in correlation to various phenomena in the natural world, such as bee navigation and how a queen bee selects where the nest will be. The aforementioned dowsing is another example...when I first moved up to my now land 12 years ago, I was referred to an old timer frenchman farmer who was the go to dowser for people looking for where to place their well, and as he was right down the road, I asked if he would do that service for me, which he did. And water he found (granted, not a difficult feat in the Maine mountains, but I watched the stick rotate in his very loose grip). The funny thing that stuck out in my mind was that he couldn't wear watches with quartz piezo action, they just would stop working within a short amount of time. Surely related to his sensitivity to em, I've always thought.

Yes, we are bathed in a sea of varying frequencies of energy from sound and light waves, to rf, ef, emf, etc etc. Also, cancer rates and all manner of other ailments, especially neurological and psychological, seemed to have ramped up tremendously over the decades. Maybe it's a coincidence, maybe not... If I had to wager though, I'd hazard it's an aggregate to the problem, alongside unwise farming practices, preservatives, fallout from the plastic age, etc.

I'd go get a emf/rf meter though... It's pretty interesting to measure things and see what strengths and field areas are generated by everyday objects. I'm a sucker for meters of all sorts then again...I've got a lot of apogee gear to measure specific photon flux densities from different sources. In assessing the strength of any given field to health risks, I'm afraid there's very little consensus in the scientific community (units we are talking really obvious cause and effect in short term exposure, which we aren't) rendering your actual question unanswerable by me. It's trial and error, observation and note taking in the longitudinal by people like myself and other interested amateurs. And like my farmer friend, some people just seem to be more sensitive to it than others, so it stands to reason that some people would be more adversely effected than others.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

cancer rates and all manner of other ailments, especially neurological and psychological, seemed to have ramped up tremendously over the decades. Maybe it's a coincidence, maybe not... If I had to wager though, I'd hazard it's an aggregate to the problem, alongside unwise farming practices, preservatives, fallout from the plastic age

There’s probably a lot of correlation to several of the issues you mentioned as well as some that you didn’t. However, the psychology component I don’t think correlates is readily within those causations.

The increasing incidences of mental health issues within various groups probably doesn’t correlate in my opinion because of two primary factors: societal affectation and cultural nuances.

Just as people glom onto personal electronic devices partly due to societal pressures, Jack the Ripper had copycats, school bomb threats occur in patterns, “mass shooters” going on sprees, and waves of criminal ‘demonstrations’ occur as they are given media attention, the culture has created a familiarity within our societies of various (formerly rare) mental health disorders to where individuals ’recognize’ a symptom because they relate to it and even if a genuine illness they affect the symptomology readily. Whereas in past generations individuals had similar mental health issues but most moved past them in time. Today something like 95% of people have at least one mental health event in their lives. Past generations probably had similar percentages as well - with far fewer in the past developing long-term disability within society because society expected them to recover and victims believed they could and would recover.

The cultural nuances are the disproportionate number of cases in some contemporary cultures compared to the low occurrence in other otherwise very similar cultures elsewhere. Populations are not effected equally across similar cultures. Poor, rich, ethnicities, region- it seems random without incorporating cultural anthropology.

In developed countries the background emf is pretty much the same worldwide. So my possibly naive conclusion is that emf can’t specifically be a cause for psychological issues.

 

[SacRV]

I'd take into account the noise from your inverter. Granted it might not sound like much during the day. But at night when you want it silent may be another matter. Our's is in the closet next to the bed. I ended up adding sound damping material to the inside closet doors and that all but eliminated the sound.

https://amzn.to/3qWbzea

 

[Sirtate]

I worry about the AC equipment. Those electric fields change at 60Hz around here and can induce currents in nearby objects.
DC electrical storage is just a chemical reaction, and happens naturally in the environment. (usually leading to corrosion)

Any offgassing from the chemistry of charging/discharging a battery should be addressed. LiPO4 has minimal off gassing and gasses shouldn't build up because there is enough air exchange happening by opening doors and windows every few hours, or so.

I don't like to sleep with my inverter running, the hum may cause sleep issues, and the EM field could be bad on some level. Besides, I'm done watching TV/ surfing internet, and it's dark outside, so inside doesn't heat up much with the windows/vents open. (see battery offgassing remedies)

Fire is more of a worry for me when I go to bed. (And bugs, too!)

 

[Cajunwolf]

I'm 69 going on 70 and never have nor do I worry about any of this stuff, dang.

 

[JoeHam]

Minimal off gassing?

LiFePO4 should have zero off gassing.

I have zero concerns about the ones in my house.

 

[eXodus]

Caution when it comes to health and environmental impacts is reasonable and prudent. As you have alluded to, there is sometimes a long lag of years or decades before we come to understand the implications of some new thing. At the same time its probably not productive to let vague/undefined fears dominate your thinking, without trying to untangle and develop what is and what is not realistic/possible, and what vectors for harm may or may not exist.

With LiFePO4 for example you are talking about 'actual airborne chemicals' but my understanding (as a layman) is that unless something goes very wrong (which would require multiple simultaneous failures in a well designed system), there is no venting with LiFePO4 batteries. There should be no 'actual airborne chemicals.'

That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with erring on the side of caution, its a smart approach given limited information, if there is one thing we do in abundance on this forum, its overbuild+overthink. If you are worried about the potential for venting, you could build a battery enclosure that vents to the outside or is sealed in some way, and/or make sure there is adequate air exchange/ventilation in the living space (this is a good idea regardless).

The TL;DR is try to define the specific risks/worries then assess each of those individually rather than focusing on an amorphous idea of possible harm.

In a recent Fully charged show a battery recycling firm owner claims that he can smell they different manufacturers of batteries:

It's around minute 7.

LiFePO4 should have zero off gassing.

While that is true - even the plastic case off-gasses. I mean the cells are swelling and contracting.

One of the reasons I buy marine grade batteries (Chins, Amperetime etc.) - in air/water tight cases vs server rack batteries - is that I'm living a high humidity environment - and I'm more concerned about corroding the cells and connection between them. But now I'm also glad that potential off gassing is reduced.

 

[eXodus]

Yes, we are bathed in a sea of varying frequencies of energy from sound and light waves, to rf, ef, emf, etc etc. Also, cancer rates and all manner of other ailments, especially neurological and psychological, seemed to have ramped up tremendously over the decades. Maybe it's a coincidence, maybe not... If I had to wager though, I'd hazard it's an aggregate to the problem, alongside unwise farming practices, preservatives, fallout from the plastic age, etc.

I don't have any electronics in my Bedroom. Even keep filament lightbulbs in the sockets in that room.

Btw I studied electrical engineering once upon a time.
Lot's of RF issues are myths, but some are replicable in cell cultures and animal models. Which usually means - that a human is not immune from that, it just takes longer, just by sheer mass of cells to be impacted.

I don't like to sleep with my inverter running, the hum may cause sleep issues, and the EM field could be bad on some level. Besides, I'm done watching TV/ surfing internet, and it's dark outside, so inside doesn't heat up much with the windows/vents open. (see battery offgassing remedies)

I keep the inverter on in the Winter - to heat up the RV

 

[BlackWaterPark]

The increasing incidences of mental health issues within various groups probably doesn’t correlate in my opinion because of two primary factors: societal affectation and cultural nuances.

Psychology is greatly influenced by biology, of course, so it would be hard for me to divorce the notion entirely. Even if relegated to ancillary or more indirect roles. The magnitude to which the issue is expressed across various cultural and geographical milieu certainly and solidly supports your points for sure.

Past generations probably had similar percentages as well - with far fewer in the past developing long-term disability within society because society expected them to recover and victims believed they could and would recover.

This right here ^^^. Though it's likely impossible to validate the very first part, the rest rings resoundingly true. We can clearly see the fallout from, without getting political, the sharply upward trend in coddling and, dare I say, decline of cuffings upside the head? It probably doesn't help that discovery of new mental health ailments are often incentivised, leading me to wonder what came first in some cases...the disease or the diagnosis. There's an old saying in the esoteric realms, "where focus goes, energy flows".

One things for certain..."Progress" (and progress too) often leaves a tangled, convoluted web in it's wake.

 

[BlackWaterPark]

I'd take into account the noise from your inverter. Granted it might not sound like much during the day

Yup, depends on ones inverter. I have a 6kw (really a true 8kw 240v) inverter who's transformer is so well designed and wound that there is no audible hum whatsoever, which is rare for a LF unit. However, the 3 fans in it, which come on periodically even with low loads, are anything but quiet. When they first come in, it's not hard to imagine you're standing on the tarmac right next to a 747 getting ready for takeoff. Honestly, I'd be more annoyed about it if I wasn't so impressed with the sheer cfm power of these things. I swear they are as loud as my 12" vortex can-fans that I use to purify 26'x40' rooms by pulling the air through a 6' tall carbon filter. I'd imagine that would drive someone batty in an RV or tiny home. Conversely, the Samlex high freq inverters I've used, you would never even know they were on, even under nameplate rated loads.

 

[Yurtdweller]

Heck. Why not build yourself a faraday cage for your gear? Keeps your system's EMFs in, and protect from EMPs at the same time I live in a very small yurt, and am also very close to my batteries, inverter, charge controller, all with Bluetooth..... Oh, wait. Faraday cage would shut down the Bluetooth I guess I can always do wired monitors.

 

[Hedges]

Hello, this may sound kooky / cra cra to some… but intuitively it just seems like a bad idea to sleep directly above or near a LifeP04 battery bank and inverter etc.

You're just being paranoid.

LifeP04 meltdown in a Sprinter van ?

LiFePo4 - Catastrophic failure. Spotted on the sprinter forum today. YIKES! ? Re will it take a charge, relax… it’s a joke…

diysolarforum.com

 

[Rocksnsalt]

You're just being paranoid.

LifeP04 meltdown in a Sprinter van ?

LiFePo4 - Catastrophic failure. Spotted on the sprinter forum today. YIKES! ? Re will it take a charge, relax… it’s a joke…

diysolarforum.com

Yeah, you’re probably right.
What could possibly go wrong…

 

[Batvette]

Instinct tells me to be afraid of things that hum. Most people wont buy homes near high power transmission lines.
However with all the fear and paranoia people have long held about EMF, I dont think any real conclusions have been made about it. I do recall a case in Fresno CA at a school near such power lines where a startling number of teachers had similar rare cancers.
Does anyone know the outcome of that?
Half of me says follow the science, the truth is out there.
The other half of me realizes there would be such a financial catastrauphe for every industry involved if a link to deadly cancers was proven, would the truth come out?
The other half of me thinks, could they keep it a secret?
The other half of me.... LOL.
Heres a serious fallacy about any of the science to all this. We WILL absolutely see an increase in diagnosis and fatalities from all kinds of cancers in humans in the future, which will likely see correlations to every technology and substance imaginable. Especially by lawyers for plaintiffs seeking damages from anyone with deep pockets.
It would be foolish to believe higher diagnosis and fatalities mean people really are getting and dying from more cancers.
It just means we will be better at detecting them, determining cause of death, and that people are living long enough to get cancer in the first place and not dying from formerly uncurable or unavoidable reasons.
Consider that its only been several decades that CT scans and MRIs have been common and available. Xrays were useless in detecting almost any tumors.
Only the worst cancer deaths were ever even known about.
So in a decade when you see claims about 5g cancers or similar I would take it with some skepticism.

Edit: whats the official conclusion on EMF and cancer? Don't rule it out, but its not worth losing sleep over.

Electromagnetic Fields and Cancer

A fact sheet about research on electric and magnetic fields and studies examining their potential connection with cancer.

www.cancer.gov

 

[eXodus]

Instinct tells me to be afraid of things that hum. Most people wont buy homes near high power transmission lines.

Electric Energy flows outside of AC conductors. Called electric field:

How does electricity travel along a wire? Does it pass through the inside of the wire or along the outside of the wire?

Answer (1 of 6): Electricity is the flow of fields, NOT electrons. Current don’t exist inside the conductor. Current exists OUTSIDE the space of the conductor. Following is the electric field diagram of a single current carrying conductor. The magnetic lines of force comprises the magnetic fiel...

www.quora.com

Electrons flow inside the conductor - Energy outside

So yeah, no house close to high power AC Powerline - DC the field is much much less.

Consider that its only been several decades that CT scans and MRIs have been common and available. Xrays were useless in detecting almost any tumors.
Only the worst cancer deaths were ever even known about.

We probably all have pre-cancerous cells a few times in our life. Still being a topic of intense research. Usually our immune system is able to detect and neutralize those. That is called "The spontaneous regression of cancer" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312698/

When you get better in detecting - you also will find cancers the body would have dealt with by itself.
The crucial thing about that is - being healthy, and having a good immune system.

DC fields are by far less reaching then AC fields. As a compromise - I would say that the battery burning down would worry me more under my bed then getting EMF problems.

Mount the inverter (AC field and hum) somewhere else - put the water tank under the bed. (better for thermal management anyhow)

 

[12VoltInstalls]

would say that the battery burning down would worry me more under my bed then getting EMF problems

That’s my opinion but I’m not a scientist
Worried preppers make a lead-lined five-sided cover (bottom ventilation) to go over the top of their inverters their theory being the emf only can escape in a direction out of the living space.
My inverter was under the bed for several years with no real or imaginary shielding. Now it’s on the wall six feet from my head - still not “shielded” and I’m unconcerned.

 

[eXodus]

Worried preppers make a lead-lined five-sided

lol, really? lead is toxic as heck and that's real and proven. They outlawed my favorite solders because of lead toxicity.
You get more health effects from the lead then from the EMF you want to shield against.

I once studied electrical engineering, half a lifetime ago. EMF is a thing, and I don't have any electronics near my bedroom, my phone is far away.
And I mounted the inverter on the other side of the RV. It's probably more psychological then physical but the placebo effect is also scientific accurate. If you take medication and think you will get better, you will get better. Even when it's completely useless. (https://www.health.harvard.edu/mental-health/the-power-of-the-placebo-effect)
If you think you get sick, you will get sick.

 

[Hedges]

If your power source emits X-ray or gamma radiation, shield it with lead.
For lower frequency EM waves such as microwaves, use copper.
For low frequency magnetic fields, e.g. 60 Hz from transformer, use Mu-metal or ferrites
For infra-red and extreme heat, e.g. from combustion of lithium batteries, use asbestos inside steel (or to be more exotic, tantalum). Solid carbon can also withstand considerable heat.
For Neutrons, shield with layers of polyethylene and tungsten

If you want to pass some frequencies but block others, e.g. visible light through a window while stopping EMP or radio interference, Indium Tin Oxide on glass.
To pass visible light but block gamma or x-ray, leaded glass.
To pass visible light but block UV, amorphous glass.
To pass visible light and deep UV but have an airtight seal, use quartz glass
To pass soft X-ray, use beryllium.


Medications - I figure once you understand the placebo effect, you can get the benefit without even having to take the sugar pill.