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Victron 250/(70,85,100) SCC question

Yes, I have already mentioned on the forum that I am completely new to solar and have only taken in interest in it in the last few months. So I fully acknowledge that I have little understanding of how PV works. That is why I was asking questions about how many bare wires I could cram into a Victron charge controller.

On one side you acknowledge your own ignorance, yet on the other side, you think you know enough to put forth something similar to: "surely somebody has figured this thing out by now, it's easy/simple."

You're forming opinions and approaching design using expertise you don't have.

You're also making design decisions based on what YOU think is best rather than those with experience... including the manufacturers.

The easy/simple thing is to do it right rather than try to come up with some janky and potentially unreliable solution.

5S6P requires ZERO intervention on your part. EVER. The only time it ever matters is the day you connect the array - just don't hook it up backwards. Done.

The key word here being "majority" of their rated voltage. Shouldn't we also take into account line losses (perhaps ~3%)

Again, this is where your ignorance manifests. There are ZERO line losses at Voc. For there to be losses, current MUST flow. If no current is flowing, you get 100% of Voc.

on an array totaling 223.32 VOC, that would amount to a decrease of 6.7 volts, no? That would bring the array down to 216.62 volts, which allows for a nice 15% margin before hitting the 250 V figure.

As line losses don't happen, the above is irrelevant.

In any case, I think some are missing the point. I could theoretically run 30 panels (6S5P) with the 250/100 without any issue for probably at least the next 7 or 8 months, and not have to worry about any possibility of extreme cold weather. That gives me plenty of time to find a bargain on another charge controller if I decide to go that route, and plenty of time to re-configure my strings/array before winter cold arrives.

The point is you are a self-admitted newb making a poor design choice, and are actively resisting the advice of those with greater experience than you INCLUDING the manufacturers, the NEC, etc.

As I already said before, the reason for paralleling multiple strings is because I expect to not have all the panels facing the sun at the same time, and there are time when certain groups of panels are partially shaded during the day.

Which is stronger argument for 5S6P vs. 6S5P.

So, I expect when you take into account *ALL* the factors, such as line losses, shading, not all panels facing the same direction hitting the sun at the same time,

The above have no/little influence.

the fact that coldest temps in my area are most often *overnight* temps when it is DARK, and there is no light on the panels, and by the time the sun comes up, and a significant amount of light hits the panels, it typically warms up above freezing,

Have you actually confirmed this with data? The coldest time of any 24 hour period is usually the instant before dawn.

This is my weather station 10 day forecast:

1740499379858.png

These lows are within minutes of each day's sunrise. They occur when it transitions from a shaded to a white background - sunrise.

Your climate may vary, but the above is fairly typical.

I think I just might be okay

This sounds REALLY confident.

staying under 250 V with 6 in series, except for the occasional situation perhaps a few days per year, when it might stay cold and clear in the 20s all day long. That is a cross that bridge when you come to it kind of thing.

No. It's an active decision to make a bad design. Period. Those with more experience, the manufacturer, AND the NEC are saying:

"don't do this"

You're saying:

"I know better. I'm doing this anyway"

I have several months to learn and experiment and measure the panel voltages before it will get cold enough to have to worry about it.

IMHO, you have not demonstrated an actual willingness to learn. Good luck.
 
Humans suck at automated tasks.
Your going to remember in 10 months to watch the weather every day and adjust accordingly? What happens when you get an early cold snap and poof there goes the scc.
Removing panels in winter when you need all the power you can get is silly.
Do it right so you ( or someone else) don't have to think about it.
So, your solution is run only 25 panels off the SCC instead of 30, and lose 5 panels of output throughout most of the entire year, all because there might be a few cold days in the 20s now and again? I think it has been several years since we've been in the teens or single digits. We did have a handful of clear sunny days this winter where it dipped into the 20s.

Like I said, since by the time I get around to hooking up anywhere close to 30 panels, the cold months will have passed, so I will have plenty of time to explore the most simple and effective method of dealing with running 30 panels off of one 250/100 in cold weather.

As I said, it wouldn't really bother me all that much to re-configure my array slightly a bit for the colder few months of the year.
 
On one side you acknowledge your own ignorance, yet on the other side, you think you know enough to put forth something similar to: "surely somebody has figured this thing out by now, it's easy/simple."

Oh, I have gladly acknowledged my ignorance on multiple occasions. Now, when are you going to acknowledge your arrogance? You come across as a total know-it-all. Your way or the highway, end of discussion. Don't question the great waffle man. I already acknowledged that nothing is yet definite, and I appreciated your suggestion of 5S6P, I will seriously take it into consideration. But you just can't let it go, you have to be a zealot, and insist everyone immediately bow to your expertise.

I will be sure not to ask you any more questions, ok? You could learn a thing or two from other members like Brucey, who have a much more patient and tolerant approach.
 
Oh, I have gladly acknowledged my ignorance on multiple occasions.

Acknowledging it isn't enough. You need to accept it and work from that foundation. I'm ignorant about a LOT of stuff. I don't assume I know better than those that are less ignorant than me.

Now, when are you going to acknowledge your arrogance? You come across as a total know-it-all. Your way or the highway, end of discussion. Don't question the great waffle man.

@ricardocello linked that for me.

I already acknowledged that nothing is yet definite, and I appreciated your suggestion of 5S6P, I will seriously take it into consideration. But you just can't let it go, you have to be a zealot, and insist everyone immediately bow to your expertise.

My expertise comes from my own solo experience with off-grid systems, manufacturer recommendations/specifications, my incomplete understanding of the NEC, and the interactions with folks on a DIY Solar forum spanning 30K+ posts over a nearly 5 year span, where I learned a LOT from others as well.

I will be sure not to ask you any more questions, ok?

Much obliged. As I will continue to respond to bad design choices, you may want to block me.

You could learn a thing or two from other members like Brucey, who have a much more patient and tolerant approach.

You set the stage here:

That's more like it! Instead of just saying no, giving me other interesting possibilities and scenarios to consider.

We're all grown-ups here. You should work on not taking blunt data-based advice personally.
 
We're all grown-ups here. You should work on not taking blunt data-based advice personally.

Your advice never even bothered to take into consideration any of the circumstances unique to my personal situation. Your advice was based on all sorts of assumptions. No matter the varying circumstances, you make it sound as if I will go over 250 V no matter what, as long as it's below freezing. I could even cover all 30 panels in blankets, and I'm sure you will insist I will still end up over 250 volts somehow, frying the charge controller.

Since you are so smart, and know so much, please tell us what would happen to the (nominal) voltage of 216.62 VOC of 30 panels in a 6S5P configuration if I covered one of the 30 panels with a blanket. Then tell us what the voltage of the panels would be if I covered two. Then, if you would be so kind as to bestow your vast knowledge upon us, tell us if 10 panels were covered, and 20, and 30.

If I cover all 30 panels with blankets, I will still certainly go over 250V in sub-freezing weather? If I measure the voltage of the array after dark, after the sun sets, they will be putting out 250V all night long in the dark?
 
Your advice never even bothered to take into consideration any of the circumstances unique to my personal situation.

Because you have not shared those circumstances, nor can I possibly know them. Your personal situation/circumstances are not particularly relevant. You have given equipment and conditions. There are rules, best practices, good and bad designs. Your feelings don't influence these.

Your advice was based on all sorts of assumptions. No matter the varying circumstances, you make it sound as if I will go over 250 V no matter what, as long as it's below freezing. I could even cover all 30 panels in blankets, and I'm sure you will insist I will still end up over 250 volts somehow, frying the charge controller.

You seem to be having an emotional reaction. I don't see any question marks, but I see a lot of assumptions.

I can respond with, why in the name of all that is holy would you design and install a system that MIGHT need you to cover one or more panels with a blanket when there are scores of other solutions available?

Since you are so smart, and know so much, please tell us what would happen to the (nominal) voltage of 216.62 VOC of 30 panels in a 6S5P configuration if I covered one of the 30 panels with a blanket. Then tell us what the voltage of the panels would be if I covered two. Then, if you would be so kind as to bestow your vast knowledge upon us, tell us if 10 panels were covered, and 20, and 30.

You said you wouldn't ask me anymore questions, and I don't see any question marks at the ends of sentences, so I assume the above is emotional and rhetorical rather than a sincere approach to meaningful exchange.

If I cover all 30 panels with blankets, I will still certainly go over 250V in sub-freezing weather? If I measure the voltage of the array after dark, after the sun sets, they will be putting out 250V all night long in the dark?

Ah. Two question marks. We seem to be revisiting the last two paragraphs but in a different and insincere fashion.

I will repeat: Why in the name of all that is holy would you design and install a system that MIGHT need you to cover one or more panels with a blanket when there are scores of other solutions available?
 
Because electricity doesn't care about any of that.

Mr. Eggo, (or is it Ego?) said: "LIGHT gives voltage."

According to my admittedly simple brain, I would also take that to mean, that if a panel is deprived of light, it would not put out voltage. Now, specifically how much light is required to produce enough voltage to reach 250 Volts from 6 panels in series, I am unable to determine. That's why I was trying to determine if there was a feasible way to temporarily deprive some of the panels of light, to lower the voltage below 250V in sub-freezing weather. Of course, that could be quite the hassle if you have to do that for multiple strings. But I am curious as to if it could be done, nonetheless. After all, I may not even end up deploying 30 panels, but I like to know all my options before deciding on a course of action.
 
I will repeat: Why in the name of all that is holy would you design and install a system that MIGHT need you to cover one or more panels with a blanket when there are scores of other solutions available?
I only saw two possible solutions (not scores) mentioned by you. 5S6P instead of 6S5P (which I thank you for, and will consider), or go buy some other charge controller like a Midnite (quite pricey, I imagine?). I don't want to do that, as I already ordered a Victron 250/100 (not the Tr, but the one with the MC4 connectors), and it was a reasonable $368 plus tax.

So, I likely will make use of the 250/100 whether it be with 9, 12, 18, 25, or 30 panels, and I think it will work out well for a reasonable price.

I am fully aware that one can easily come up with all sorts of solutions by just throwing money at a design. The strategy is to make this solar project relatively inexpensive, but still a system with quality components, not necessarily the simplest or easiest, which is easy to achieve if you just spend more $$$.

It only gets into the twenties a few or a handful of days per year, and never weeks on end. The weather forecasters always tell us a few days in advance when it's going to be cold. I can't remember any time it becoming unexpectedly cold without any warning from the weather people.
 
OK, as per usually - Eggo is being a dick, but it doesn't seem you are listening to the advice - I assume that is because you lack the experience and context to get it.... and that is why you are here -- to learn --- We don't do flame wars, or pissing matches - we should all be trying to help and be polite about it... and if someone is out of line you report the post and a moderator will take care of the issue.


Lemme take a stab at it...

If you exceed 250v on that MPPT for even a few minutes it will let the magic blue smoke out and it will stop functioning. Expensive to replace.

So you either use the chart he posted above to figure the amount below you need to target or you can take the temperature coefficient from the panel datasheet and do the math. Both require you to lookup your all-time low temperature at your location, because if you do it wrong you can bet there will be a cold snap and out comes the smoke...



Also note - altitude plays a part in things if you are much more than a thousand foot above sea level... in my case my 335w panels put out 430w on a 32f clear day because I live at 9000ft....

Now - you can over-panel to a point - this means putting your extra panels in parallel to your existing strings - but with the same number in series as the other string... since the MPPT just draws as much as it can use you will probably clip and loose partial power from it at some point but no magic smoke comes out.... There is also in the manual a list for the maximum amount of over-paneling you can do or it lets the smoke out.

Also, in the manual it has a maximum amount of wattage you will be able to put out no matter what ... So you can over-panel a good, something like 20% or so and after that anything you add will not get you any benefit.

So, you can use the 250/100 and diddle around the strings for the max parallel/series combination, but you will likely have to split the strings up on separate MPPT.... In my case (I am still designing), I will have 22 panels on one MPPT and the other 8~10 on another MPPT that is smaller... Sure I could buy two of the large MPPT, but I don't see the reason to spend the extra $$.... so my current plan is the 250/100 and a 150/70 ....both will work fine and if there is a sunny day out when it is -15 I won't fry anything.
 
I only saw two possible solutions (not scores) mentioned by you. 5S6P instead of 6S5P (which I thank you for, and will consider), or go buy some other charge controller like a Midnite (quite pricey, I imagine?). I don't want to do that, as I already ordered a Victron 250/100 (not the Tr, but the one with the MC4 connectors), and it was a reasonable $368 plus tax.

Where did you get it at that price?

Yet another argument for 5S6P if you like symmetry - 2P on each MC4.

So, I likely will make use of the 250/100 whether it be with 9, 12, 18, 25, or 30 panels, and I think it will work out well for a reasonable price.

I am fully aware that one can easily come up with all sorts of solutions by just throwing money at a design.


500V controller cheaper than the typical price of a Victron.

The strategy is to make this solar project relatively inexpensive, but still a system with quality components, not necessarily the simplest or easiest, which is easy to achieve if you just spend more $$$.

Quality = money.

It only gets into the twenties a few or a handful of days per year, and never weeks on end. The weather forecasters always tell us a few days in advance when it's going to be cold. I can't remember any time it becoming unexpectedly cold without any warning from the weather people.

You don't use what you remember/perceive. You use the record low temperature over the last 30 years in your weather reporting region. 30 years is the timeframe for these records when it comes to weather data. Some sites may note much older values as the record high/low, but these are not considered relevant unless in the 30 year timeframe.
 
The reason I went with the 250/100 over the eg4 is the mqtt that victron sends out from the cerbo gx. This allows me to monitor EVERY victron solar controller I ever add anywhere to home assistant effortlessly.

EG4 as far as I can tell won't talk to squat monitoring wise. It will talk to the batteries but I don't want it doing that.

So for me the victron scc are a bargain over the EG4 product even though they cost almost twice as much.

I can change any setting I want including what is consider "full" charge wise. This allows the ai to tailor the charging to give me max charge and max power as needed when heavy loads are on the inverters. Love it.

Also the ai can spot problems early on from the way things are running and notify me to fix it and it can protect things from overheating and other problems.
 
The reason I went with the 250/100 over the eg4 is the mqtt that victron sends out from the cerbo gx. This allows me to monitor EVERY victron solar controller I ever add anywhere to home assistant effortlessly.

EG4 as far as I can tell won't talk to squat monitoring wise. It will talk to the batteries but I don't want it doing that.

So for me the victron scc are a bargain over the EG4 product even though they cost almost twice as much.

Especially at $368!!! Where TF?


I can change any setting I want including what is consider "full" charge wise. This allows the ai to tailor the charging to give me max charge and max power as needed when heavy loads are on the inverters. Love it.

Also the ai can spot problems early on from the way things are running and notify me to fix it and it can protect things from overheating and other problems.

Wait... wut? ai?

Home assistant?
 
I will be sure not to ask you any more questions, ok? You could learn a thing or two from other members like Brucey, who have a much more patient and tolerant approach.

Eggos just trying to save you from destroying a costly piece of equipment, just like everyone else here.

Please share where you got a 250/100 for $368, was that used? Cheapest I know from quality Victron dealer is current connected for $567 after logging in.
 
Eggos just trying to save you from destroying a costly piece of equipment, just like everyone else here.

Please share where you got a 250/100 for $368, was that used? Cheapest I know from quality Victron dealer is current connected for $567 after logging in.
Yeah, it's not the SmartSolar but the (older?) BlueSolar model. Which is fine by me, because I heard that the built-in bluetooth on the SmartSolar has a poor range, so I intend to add the bluetooth dongle with much better range. I also have a couple smaller Victron inverters that I can plug-in the bluetooth dongle to configure. The 150/45 I have is the SmartSolar model, which I will likely hook up to the 3-6 panels I will place on the back deck. That shorter bluetooth range will work better. So, I may not have gotten the nicest unit, but $367.99 + tax seems reasonable, and hopefully will get the job done.

I did finally order a few batteries last night (Dr. Prepare 12V 100Ah on Temu, for $102.25 a piece), so I will shortly be able to begin deploying a large number of panels and hook them up to the Victron SCCs.

Not to worry, it's 60 degrees right now. I don't think it will be getting into the twenties until the end of the year. I will hook up 6 panels in series and monitor the voltage under different temp conditions, just to satisfy my curiosity.

I also have another pallet (36) 405W panels that is scheduled to be delivered within the hour. The power was also out for nearly 10 hours yesterday, so I have been quite busy.
 

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If you exceed 250v on that MPPT for even a few minutes it will let the magic blue smoke out and it will stop functioning. Expensive to replace.
Then it seems like a stupid design on Victron's part. They should have at least a 5% tolerance built-in, so if someone miscalculates and goes a hair over 250V for a brief period, it shouldn't fry the unit.

So you either use the chart he posted above to figure the amount below you need to target or you can take the temperature coefficient from the panel datasheet and do the math.
According to his chart, there was a range. It said a factor of 1.12 equated to 22F to 31F. 6 panels in series at 37.23 VOC totals 223.38. Multiply that times 1.12 and you get 250.1856. So, I don't know what factors comprise the difference between 22F and 31F.
Both require you to lookup your all-time low temperature at your location, because if you do it wrong you can bet there will be a cold snap and out comes the smoke...

Also note - altitude plays a part in things if you are much more than a thousand foot above sea level... in my case my 335w panels put out 430w on a 32f clear day because I live at 9000ft....
It's never gotten below zero, but on rare occasions, it can drop into the teens. Most years it doesn't go below the 20s. I am a few hundred feet above sea level. I don't know how to sort out all this complicated info. If someone wants to take a stab, have at it.

Open Circuit Voltage (Voc) .... 37.23V
Short Circuit Current (Isc) ... 13.87A

Temperature Characteristics
Nominal Module Operating Temperature (NMOT) .... 42 ± 2 °C
Nominal Cell Operating Temperature ....... 45 ± 2 °C
Temperature Coefficient of Pmax ....... -0.36%/°C
Temperature Coefficient of Voc ........ -0.304%/°C
Temperature Coefficient of Isc ........ 0.050%/°C
 
Then it seems like a stupid design on Victron's part. They should have at least a 5% tolerance built-in, so if someone miscalculates and goes a hair over 250V for a brief period, it shouldn't fry the unit.


According to his chart, there was a range. It said a factor of 1.12 equated to 22F to 31F. 6 panels in series at 37.23 VOC totals 223.38. Multiply that times 1.12 and you get 250.1856. So, I don't know what factors comprise the difference between 22F and 31F.

It's never gotten below zero, but on rare occasions, it can drop into the teens. Most years it doesn't go below the 20s. I am a few hundred feet above sea level. I don't know how to sort out all this complicated info. If someone wants to take a stab, have at it.

Open Circuit Voltage (Voc) .... 37.23V
Short Circuit Current (Isc) ... 13.87A

Temperature Characteristics
Nominal Module Operating Temperature (NMOT) .... 42 ± 2 °C
Nominal Cell Operating Temperature ....... 45 ± 2 °C
Temperature Coefficient of Pmax ....... -0.36%/°C
Temperature Coefficient of Voc ........ -0.304%/°C
Temperature Coefficient of Isc ........ 0.050%/°C
 
Yeah, it's not the SmartSolar but the (older?) BlueSolar model.

So where did you get it?????? Since I have a GX device, I really have no need for BT, and I don't find a significant price difference between them... like maybe $20.

Which is fine by me, because I heard that the built-in bluetooth on the SmartSolar has a poor range, so I intend to add the bluetooth dongle with much better range.

Neither is true. The only Victron product with consistently bad BT is the smartshunt due to the radio's proximity to the shunt, which is moving current and generating a magnetic field that interferes with the BT signal. 10' is a pretty good range for a smartshunt.

On my smartsolar 250/100, I can get about 50' as long as the shipping container door is open.

I also have a couple smaller Victron inverters that I can plug-in the bluetooth dongle to configure.

If it's the VE.Direct bluetooth smart dongle, and you have VE.Direct capable small inverters, yes. If they are VE.Bus inverters, the only way to program them is the MK3-USB adapter or VRM.


The 150/45 I have is the SmartSolar model, which I will likely hook up to the 3-6 panels I will place on the back deck. That shorter bluetooth range will work better. So, I may not have gotten the nicest unit, but $367.99 + tax seems reasonable, and hopefully will get the job done.

If you buy the right size Victron MPPT, you'll always be happy.

I did finally order a few batteries last night (Dr. Prepare 12V 100Ah on Temu, for $102.25 a piece), so I will shortly be able to begin deploying a large number of panels and hook them up to the Victron SCCs.

You've expressed an interest in getting quality components. Consider that neither Dr. Prepare or Temu are sources where one expects quality.

Not to worry, it's 60 degrees right now. I don't think it will be getting into the twenties until the end of the year. I will hook up 6 panels in series and monitor the voltage under different temp conditions, just to satisfy my curiosity.

ONE advantage of the smartsolar MPPT is they will store 46 days worth of trends history in their BT module memory. The bluesolar with BT dongle do not.

I also have another pallet (36) 405W panels that is scheduled to be delivered within the hour.

Noice!

The power was also out for nearly 10 hours yesterday, so I have been quite busy.

Ouch! House was without internet for about 4 hours... I think my kids thought they were going to die.
 

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