JohnWilliams
New Member
for the certificate, hot off the press. Any one noticed any new units. Assuming they will have a different SKU.
John
Victron 48/5000/70-95 has achieved UL1741 conformity
- Thread starter JohnWilliams
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for the certificate, hot off the press. Any one noticed any new units. Assuming they will have a different SKU.
John
Adam De Lay
Solar Wizard
I'm guessing this only applies to new units after 1/24/25?
ricardocello
Watching and Learning
I'm guessing only for the new SKU, whenever those make it into the sales channel.
Brucey
Velcro Man
So now both the Quattro and the Multiplus II 5000/48 have UL 1741. Awesome. Hopefully both will be available soon.
Edit: I doubt older units will be retroactively UL. The 3000/48 needed to be redesigned to provide a larger wiring compartment.
Edit: I doubt older units will be retroactively UL. The 3000/48 needed to be redesigned to provide a larger wiring compartment.
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I wonder if the discounts for the non UL will be sprinkled around to move out old stock.
Or will the UL be priced higher?
Brucey
Velcro Man
Iirc the difference between ul and non ul 3k were within $40 bucks or so.
Wire box is pretty big on mine...picked it up in October from Current connected. Not worried about UL for my place.
In agreement, the inverter is rated for 5000VA and operating a load with 0.8PF would yield 4000W. However, the cert. specifies 33A AC which yields 3960VA (just under 4000) at 120V AC. The cert. specification for output current is not specific to any PF and is therefore assumed to be 1.0 (unity). To get 5000VA you would need 41.7A RMS AC.
To state this in another way; For the 5kVA Multiplus II feeding a purely resistive load (PF = 1.0) will it deliver 5000W? If so, then it must be delivering; 5000 / 120 = 41.67A RMS.
It is interesting to compare the certificates. The Quattro's, here:
were done by Intertek, and lists 3 of the Quattro's without listing specs.
The Multiplus IIs were done by LabTest and the 3000/48 is here:
and seems to indicate a fuller set of specs than the 5000/48
The 5000/48 is here, also done by LabTest, but lists the shorter set of specs.
Comments:
1. Interesting that Victron is using different labs for similar equipment. I wonder what the business decision was there.
2. The combined Quattro certificate must be a reissue, as there was a time when not all 3 of the Quattro's listed there were UL.
3. The lack of fuller specs on the 5000/48 certificate raises questions as to what was tested for UL, particularly since the 3000/48 was the same lab. If there is no reason not to, if I were Victron, I'd ask them to put the full specs or no specs to avoid confusion.
I'm probably nitpicking.
were done by Intertek, and lists 3 of the Quattro's without listing specs.
The Multiplus IIs were done by LabTest and the 3000/48 is here:
and seems to indicate a fuller set of specs than the 5000/48
The 5000/48 is here, also done by LabTest, but lists the shorter set of specs.
Comments:
1. Interesting that Victron is using different labs for similar equipment. I wonder what the business decision was there.
2. The combined Quattro certificate must be a reissue, as there was a time when not all 3 of the Quattro's listed there were UL.
3. The lack of fuller specs on the 5000/48 certificate raises questions as to what was tested for UL, particularly since the 3000/48 was the same lab. If there is no reason not to, if I were Victron, I'd ask them to put the full specs or no specs to avoid confusion.
I'm probably nitpicking.
Brucey
Velcro Man
That is an excellent point. There are various versions of ul1741.
In my particular area, equipment must simply be "ul listed". Base ul1741 is an older spec, otherwise known as IEEE Std. 1547-2018 (2nd ed.). But good enough for this use case.
However, if I want to gridtie with my utility I would need equipment listed under ul1741-sb, which supersedes ul1741-SA, which came after 2nd edition. Many jurisdictions may now require 1741-SB.
I think one of the reasons Victron is slow on getting these approvals is because the requirements are a constantly changing game of musical chairs, oh good you got this level of approval heres another bunch of requirements....
From what I can see there's no real difference between those approvals in terms of what code enforcement will accept. The manufacturer is free to choose from any approved NRTL testing facility may just be case of which facility has the availability.
ricardocello
Watching and Learning
Having dealt with test labs in my real work, I can tell you it was likely driven by schedule and cost. Nothing unusual about that.
The certificates are just a summary statement for the full test report, which we will likely not get to see.
But I agree, you would think they would be similar from the same lab.
ricardocello
Watching and Learning
I've watched Victron try to support UK and EU certifications for grid codes.
Seems like every country has a bunch of changing requirements.
Yes, they cover the IEC standards, but individual countries have different requirements.
Like Belgium having two legs of 3-phase delta going to some houses (no neutral). Victron can't do that.
I don't think UL 1741-SA and SB are particularly worse. In fact, my impression is that the UK (G99) is far worse.
But I'm only watching from afar.
Two years ago, I was waiting on the 3000/48 UL for my barn. It came and I ordered it a few weeks after it showed up in Current Connected 's stock
For my house, I'm not yet ready to order, but now I will probably go with 2x MPII 5000/48s UL when I am ready.
For my house, I'm not yet ready to order, but now I will probably go with 2x MPII 5000/48s UL when I am ready.
1201
Net zero
I don't know if anyone has ever tested this. I know I've watched videos , I think it was one from @Adam De Lay , where two 48/5000s had the overload light come on around 8kw.
@ricardocello do you know of any tests of the continuous power capability of any victron at pf 1.0?
ricardocello
Watching and Learning
Not that I can remember. But my memory isn't what it used to be.
For me to test this in the house, I would need everyone to clear out while I perform the test, which isn't likely to happen.
However, the test would go like this since I am using ESS (dual 5k Quattros):
- Run hot water full-blast for 10 minutes to let out the heated water from the water tank
- Turn off all breakers except for the ~6 kW water heater
- Add resistive heaters plugged in to dedicated circuits to get up to approximately 10 kW of resistive load
- See if the Quattros overload and when
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1201
Net zero
I love how simple the internals of the unit are!
Perhaps one lab is not yet qualified to do certification of newer standard editions. The Intertek cert is for UL1741 3rd ed. while the Labtest cert is for UL1741 2nd ed. The 3rd ed. is now required by some juridictions.
Also, it appears the certs are for off-grid usage only. For grid-tied usage (optional part of UL1741), the certs would have to list UL1741 Supplement SB compliance.
Brucey
Velcro Man
Yes it was never expected that these ul approvals would allow for Victrons to do grid sell etc. There is simply no US grid code option for them. But they do work well with fronius grid tie inverters so it's possible to use them together in a fashion.
1201
Net zero
I don't think it would be that difficult. Most continuous residential large loads that I know of are high pf, above. 95 so simply loading the system down would achieve a high pf.Not that I can remember. But my memory isn't what it used to be.
For me to test this in the house, I would need everyone to clear out while I perform the test, which isn't likely to happen.
However, the test would go like this since I am using ESS (dual 5k Quattros):
- Run hot water full-blast for 10 minutes to let out the heated water from the water tank
- Turn off all breakers except for the ~6 kW water heater
- Add resistive heaters plugged in to dedicated circuits to get up to approximately 10 kW of resistive load
- See if the Quattros overload and when
For the water heater, you could turn off the breaker for a couple of hours and just use hot water normally. When you turn it back on it will run for a while
Yes, there is a very large empty volume in the bottom of the 5kVA 48V Multiplus II UL unit. I would add as many large Aluminum electrolytic capacitors in there across the 48V input bus that would fit without severely blocking airflow. On one of the reviews (Current Connected) commented on not even being able to see any input capacitors under the heatsink. This will create very large low and high frequency ripple currents in the DC input cables all the way back to the battery. Also, causing stray "H" field radiated emissions and possibly interfere with other parts of the system or radios. Additionally, the poor caps (must be small if there are any) that are in the inverter input are very likely getting beat up with 120Hz ripple current far exceeding their rating. This will become a maintenance item for frequent re-capping the inverter. Other markets for military or aerospace applications have stringent requirements for input and output conducted emissions. I would be curious what Victron's expected life would be for these capacitors?
Brucey
Velcro Man
These have a 5 year warranty and you can pay 10% to bump that up to 10 years (or buy from current connected). So somewhere well beyond 10 years?
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