Victron IP22 charging voltage with Wattcycle battery?

[Northman]

Hi,

I'm new to Lithium batteries and I've got a Victron IP22 charger and Wattcycle "12V 100Ah Group 24 LiFePO4 Battery with Bluetooth for Trolling Motors."

With the Victron in its default Li program and charging in the Absorption mode it displays (via bluetooth) 14.2V. However when I measure the voltage with a variety of different meters I get 13.9-14V.
With the Victron putting out only 14V, will this Wattcycle battery be properly charged?

Thanks!

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Hi,

I'm new to Lithium batteries and I've got a Victron IP22 charger and Wattcycle "12V 100Ah Group 24 LiFePO4 Battery with Bluetooth for Trolling Motors."

With the Victron in its default Li program and charging in the Absorption mode it displays (via bluetooth) 14.2V. However when I measure the voltage with a variety of different meters I get 13.9-14V.

You're seeing losses between the charger and battery terminals. Wire length, gauge and connection quality all contribute to a loss in voltage between the charger and battery terminals.

With the Victron putting out only 14V, will this Wattcycle battery be properly charged?

The Victron is putting out 14.2V. The battery is receiving 14.0V after losing voltage in the wiring/connections.

As the current decreases, the voltage drop will lessen. Eventually , the battery and charger will read the same when current is very low.

Lastly, an LFP battery can get to 99%+ SoC @ 13.6V (LONG absorption period) and 100% for sure at 13.8V with a less long absorption period.

 

[Northman]

That makes sense.
Next time I charge I'll check the voltage at the charger too and see what that says.
The cables are 6 gauge and 18" long.
Thanks again.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

That makes sense.
Next time I charge I'll check the voltage at the charger too and see what that says.
The cables are 6 gauge and 18" long.
Thanks again.

How are the connections made? Alligator clips (terrible)? Ring terminals (good)? Are the connections tight and crimps solid?

 

[Northman]

Yes, they are the terrible Alligator clips and I believe when I grab hold of the battery terminal/Alligator clip assembly, I *might* even be able to feel a little heat from the resistance between the terminal and clip. As these are my first Lithium batteries I'm trying to make sure they get treated just right and just wanting to make sure the bms gets the voltage it needs at the end to balance the cells.

This is the first charge out of the box before I place these two 100Ah Wattcycle batteries in parallel in a truck camper.
They'll be in a Lance truck camper with a 1) Victron DC-DC charger 2) Victron MPPT charge controller with 440W of solar and 3) a Victron 500A Shunt and display.

So far I'm really liking these Victron components. Install and set up seemed easy and they all bluetooth very nicely.

With my set up is there any advantage to be had by utilizing the "advanced" mode of the Victron and changing any of the default charging parameters? --One item I've noticed so far is when I leave my CTEK charger on the truck batteries I have to change the DC-DC charger setting to "zero output" current so that the camper LI batteries don't receive current during this time.

I wish these Wattcycle's had a easy off/on lid or something similar so I could see the insides and take a few measurements while charging is going on.

 

[Q-Dog]

With my set up is there any advantage to be had by utilizing the "advanced" mode of the Victron and changing any of the default charging parameters?

Only if you have issues, or if the battery's recommended charging parameters don't match what the charger does.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Yes, they are the terrible Alligator clips and I believe when I grab hold of the battery terminal/Alligator clip assembly, I *might* even be able to feel a little heat from the resistance between the terminal and clip. As these are my first Lithium batteries I'm trying to make sure they get treated just right and just wanting to make sure the bms gets the voltage it needs at the end to balance the cells.

That's almost certainly the source of the voltage drop. Again, as battery voltage approaches absorption voltage, current reduces and voltage delta decreases.

This is the first charge out of the box before I place these two 100Ah Wattcycle batteries in parallel in a truck camper.
They'll be in a Lance truck camper with a 1) Victron DC-DC charger 2) Victron MPPT charge controller with 440W of solar and 3) a Victron 500A Shunt and display.

So far I'm really liking these Victron components. Install and set up seemed easy and they all bluetooth very nicely.

Once you have everything in place, setup a VE.Smart bluetooth network between the shunt, MPPT and DC-DC (if you get the Orion XS).

The shunt will feed the eligible chargers voltage and current data.

EDIT: IP22 can be part of the VE.Smart network, and will suffer less effects of voltage drop as it will raise it's output voltage based on the shunt measurement rather than its own measurement.

 

[mikefitz]

s when I leave my CTEK charger on the truck batteries I have to change the DC-DC charger setting to "zero output" current so that the camper LI batteries don't receive current during this time.

The Victron DC to DC charger is enabled by an Increase in starter battery volts. Normally this increase is due to engine running and alternator charging. You cannot alter settings without loosing charging by engine.
What you can do is disable DC to DC charging by using 'ignition on' voltage with the H and L control pins on the Orion. Find a voltage that becomes live when the ignition is on, wire this to the H pin, ( perhaps add a 1 amp In line fuse just in case).

 

[Northman]

The Victron DC to DC charger is enabled by an Increase in starter battery volts. Normally this increase is due to engine running and alternator charging. You cannot alter settings without loosing charging by engine.
What you can do is disable DC to DC charging by using 'ignition on' voltage with the H and L control pins on the Orion. Find a voltage that becomes live when the ignition is on, wire this to the H pin, ( perhaps add a 1 amp In line fuse just in case).
View attachment 274647

And I forgot to add that when I take my truck out of storage and off the CTEK charger, I change the DC-DC charger settings to allow charging of the truck camper batteries. But the above solutions you provide are better and I'll implement one of them.
Thanks.

 

[Northman]

That's almost certainly the source of the voltage drop. Again, as battery voltage approaches absorption voltage, current reduces and voltage delta decreases.





Once you have everything in place, setup a VE.Smart bluetooth network between the shunt, MPPT and DC-DC (if you get the Orion XS).

The shunt will feed the eligible chargers voltage and current data.

EDIT: IP22 can be part of the VE.Smart network, and will suffer less effects of voltage drop as it will raise it's output voltage based on the shunt measurement rather than its own measurement.

Thanks for that. I just noticed the VE Smart Network and I do have the Orion so everything should talk to each other.

 

[Northman]

One other question came up. The Wattcycle manual calls for charging with 14.6V. The IP22 charges at 14.2V. Should I change the charge settings to reflect what's called for in the battery manual?

 

[Q-Dog]

One other question came up. The Wattcycle manual calls for charging with 14.6V. The IP22 charges at 14.2V. Should I change the charge settings to reflect what's called for in the battery manual?

In my opinion, 14.6 is too high. The Victron preset LiFePO4 settings work well.

 

[BoonieBasher]

Hi,

I'm new to Lithium batteries and I've got a Victron IP22 charger and Wattcycle "12V 100Ah Group 24 LiFePO4 Battery with Bluetooth for Trolling Motors."

With the Victron in its default Li program and charging in the Absorption mode it displays (via bluetooth) 14.2V. However when I measure the voltage with a variety of different meters I get 13.9-14V.
With the Victron putting out only 14V, will this Wattcycle battery be properly charged?

Thanks!

Same scenario with WC 300ah, new IP22/30. 1st time charge. 18", 6 ga, ring terminals.
13.5v charge. Verified 13.5v at IP22 terminals (LiPo mode).

I confirmed via email with WC 14.6v is what they want. "We recommend 14.6v, which is better for the batteries".
I see nothing in advanced or elsewhere to change that rate.

Shot on the right is battery 1 graph complete , off Bulk. 2nd graph is battery in progress.

I know my new Progressive Dynamics RV LiPo converter puts out 14.6v

Edit: Brand new IP22 stays at 13.5v at the output terminals, regardless of Mode setting. Amps are 29+.
Example: 13.57v on "High (14.7V)"

 

[mikefitz]

"We recommend 14.6v, which is better for the batteries

Not quite true.

Edit: Brand new IP22 stays at 13.5v at the output terminals, regardless of Mode setting. Amps are 29+.
Example: 13.57v on "High (14.7V)"

When you set a absorption charge voltage, in this example 14.7 volts, its a 'target' voltage the battery will reach when it's fully charged.
During most of the charge cycle with lithium batteries the battery volts will be in the region of 13.0 to 13.6 volts.
There is no need to use high charge volts, the Victron default is OK.

 

[Q-Dog]

Same scenario with WC 300ah, new IP22/30. 1st time charge. 18", 6 ga, ring terminals.
13.5v charge. Verified 13.5v at IP22 terminals (LiPo mode).

I confirmed via email with WC 14.6v is what they want. "We recommend 14.6v, which is better for the batteries".
I see nothing in advanced or elsewhere to change that rate.

Shot on the right is battery 1 graph complete , off Bulk. 2nd graph is battery in progress.

I know my new Progressive Dynamics RV LiPo converter puts out 14.6v

Edit: Brand new IP22 stays at 13.5v at the output terminals, regardless of Mode setting. Amps are 29+.
Example: 13.57v on "High (14.7V)"

Look at your second screen shot on Cycle 2. Down at the bottom you have "Vstart" and "Vend" which represent the battery voltage when the charging started and when the charging ended. Vend says the battery was at 14.21 volts when the charging was stopped.

 

[BoonieBasher]

Thanks gents. I'll relax. Don't know what I don't know.

14.2/0a this morning in ABS mode.

 

[Q-Dog]

I feel like 14.6 is a little high for every day charging of a LiFePO4. Do what the mfg says, as long as it works.

Victron default LiFePO4 absorption is 14.2 volts ... works fine for me.

 

[amigapower]

Same scenario with WC 300ah, new IP22/30. 1st time charge. 18", 6 ga, ring terminals.
13.5v charge. Verified 13.5v at IP22 terminals (LiPo mode).

I confirmed via email with WC 14.6v is what they want. "We recommend 14.6v, which is better for the batteries".
I see nothing in advanced or elsewhere to change that rate.

Shot on the right is battery 1 graph complete , off Bulk. 2nd graph is battery in progress.

I know my new Progressive Dynamics RV LiPo converter puts out 14.6v

Edit: Brand new IP22 stays at 13.5v at the output terminals, regardless of Mode setting. Amps are 29+.
Example: 13.57v on "High (14.7V)"

Check the BMS in the Wattcycle to see if you have a cell or two that is coming up above 3.65 volts before the rest of the battery does. If any cell goes above 3.65 volts (approx,) the BMS will shut the charging current off for the whole battery.

Use the BMS Meta app version 1.1.5 to see the individual cell voltages.

One solar site I checked mentioned that they would return any new battery that showed a cell differential greater than 0.1 volt at full charge.

I had one battery that consistently had two cells that were always high when compared to the rest, (cell differential between highest and lowest was about 0.24 volts,) and the battery would 'trip off' at around a total of 14 volts and not allow any further charging. I had to take apart the battery and manually balance the cells. (The Wattcycle mini 100ah units are actually screwed together, and can be taken apart relatively easily. The screws are covered with plastic plugs.) After that was complete, I fully cycled the battery several times and it then would go up to 14.5 or so before the charge 'switch' on the BMS cut off the charging current.

Practically, it really didn't make much difference to how much energy was stored in that battery. (I think it took two hours at 500 ma to bring up the 'low' cells, so that works out to around 1% of total capacity regained.)

In my case, I'm running four strings in parallel made up of two 12v in series, (total of 400 ah at 24v,) so if one battery in a string 'tripped off' then the other battery in that string might not get fully charged either, since the current for that string is interrupted by the battery that was 'high.'

BTW, I balanced my cells using the resistor method. You clip in a resistor across the 'high cells,' and let it drain them off while in turn charging the whole battery at a current level matching what the resistor is drawing. My 'resistor' is a 150 watt 120v incandescent light bulb. It was pulling about 500ma across two cells, and about 350 when placed across one cell. Tungsten light bulbs work great for this kind of stuff, because the more current they draw, the hotter the filament gets which drives up the value of the 'resistance' making it somewhat self regulating. That allows you to clip it across a different number of cells without getting the current levels too far out of whack. Using a regular resistor would double the current draw going from one cell to two, and triple the current draw if you went across three cells. and you'd have to find ones large enough that could dissipate the heat generated.

BE CAREFUL messing around inside one of these batteries. If you short across a cell, things can go 'bang!' in a hurry. The BMS won't protect you from high currents if you short out individual cells or across the battery itself, and these cells can produce A LOT OF CURRENT.

 

[BoonieBasher]

Check the BMS in the Wattcycle to see if you have a cell or two that is coming up above 3.65 volts before the rest of the battery does. If any cell goes above 3.65 volts (approx,) the BMS will shut the charging current off for the whole battery.

Use the BMS Meta app version 1.1.5 to see the individual cell voltages.

One solar site I checked mentioned that they would return any new battery that showed a cell differential greater than 0.1 volt at full charge.

I had one battery that consistently had two cells that were always high when compared to the rest, (cell differential between highest and lowest was about 0.24 volts,) and the battery would 'trip off' at around a total of 14 volts and not allow any further charging. I had to take apart the battery and manually balance the cells. (The Wattcycle mini 100ah units are actually screwed together, and can be taken apart relatively easily. The screws are covered with plastic plugs.) After that was complete, I fully cycled the battery several times and it then would go up to 14.5 or so before the charge 'switch' on the BMS cut off the charging current.

Practically, it really didn't make much difference to how much energy was stored in that battery. (I think it took two hours at 500 ma to bring up the 'low' cells, so that works out to around 1% of total capacity regained.)

In my case, I'm running four strings in parallel made up of two 12v in series, (total of 400 ah at 24v,) so if one battery in a string 'tripped off' then the other battery in that string might not get fully charged either, since the current for that string is interrupted by the battery that was 'high.'

BTW, I balanced my cells using the resistor method. You clip in a resistor across the 'high cells,' and let it drain them off while in turn charging the whole battery at a current level matching what the resistor is drawing. My 'resistor' is a 150 watt 120v incandescent light bulb. It was pulling about 500ma across two cells, and about 350 when placed across one cell. Tungsten light bulbs work great for this kind of stuff, because the more current they draw, the hotter the filament gets which drives up the value of the 'resistance' making it somewhat self regulating. That allows you to clip it across a different number of cells without getting the current levels too far out of whack. Using a regular resistor would double the current draw going from one cell to two, and triple the current draw if you went across three cells. and you'd have to find ones large enough that could dissipate the heat generated.

BE CAREFUL messing around inside one of these batteries. If you short across a cell, things can go 'bang!' in a hurry. The BMS won't protect you from high currents if you short out individual cells or across the battery itself, and these cells can produce A LOT OF CURRENT.

Was a non-issue for me. Dumb batteries, not BT and misunderstanding of the charger function.