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Victron Orion 30 amp B to B Charger

Brockley

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May 11, 2021
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Can anyone tell me why this charger fades after around 20 minutes and the charge drops to about 26 amps/hr? Also can anyone provide a wiring diagram to show how to run another unit in parallel in order to make up the loss? Thanks.
 
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Please define "fade".

Assuming you mean charge current drops off, I can think of a couple of possibilities.
1. The battery is nearly full and the current drops off as the charger goes into absorption mode.
2. The DC2DC charger is working very hard and throttling itself on thermal overload.
Both hypothesis are easy to test.
 
Can anyone tell me why this charger fades after around 20 minutes and the charge drops to about 26 amps/hr?
a, it gets hot, perhaps due to install ( no cooling air flow) and reduces power to protect itself.
b, the battery takes less power as it charges depending on state of charge ( normal with lead acid).
c, volt drops between the alternator and unit causes the unit to work harder, gets hot.
d, the Orion at 30 A output will take up to 40 A input current, the alternator and cables may not be able to provide without a significant volt drop.
show how to run another unit in parallel
No need for a diagram connect the inputs in parallel and the outputs in parallel. Two units in parallel may take 80 amps input current. Ensure the system can provide this.

The Orion with passive cooling runs hot, some installs use forced air flow over the heatsink using computer fans.
Most of the battery to battery DC chargers on the market tend to suffer from this issue.

Mike
 
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Thanks smoothJoey and mikefitz. To explain further, by ‘fade’ I mean the charge current drops to 25-26 amps/hr which impacts greatly during the winter when very little solar is available. I know that cabling and altinator are up to a second unit, but the only reason so far that looks close is cooling/airflow? The unit is under a seat which is boxed in. The lifepo4 battery is along side it and it shows a temperature of 18 degrees centigrade. The unit does feel hot to the touch so is it possible that it fades due to the unit getting hot? Would mounting it on an aluminium plate help?

As for no need for a diagram to demonstrate two of these units being joined together, I trawled Victron literature and YouTube and found nothing close to satisfy my ineptitude? I’m able to build a Lifepo4 battery, top balance it and capacity test it all courtesy of YouTube, yet I’m still not capable of joining two of these b to b charges in parallel without detailed drawings, pictures and direction.

Any help greatly appreciated.

Mike.
 
Sorry the batteries internal sensor showed 18.7 degrees centigrade while the engine was running.
 
. The unit does feel hot to the touch so is it possible that it fades due to the unit getting hot? Would mounting it on an aluminium plate help?

That lets me think the dc charger itself gets too hot and throttles.

Easy to test: open the box, make sure there is sufficient airflow and add a fan and see if that makes any difference.
The Victrons are known to get pretty hot, so decent airflow is required or it will throttle
 
I’m still not capable of joining two of these b to b charges in parallel without detailed drawings, pictures and direction.
That's a bit sad.
You have connected a single Orion B2B between the engine battery and the service battery following the Victron literature.
With the additional unit, repeat what you have installed so far, an identical copy of the cables and connections.
Would mounting it on an aluminium plate help?
Not if its boxed in. The unit needs good air flow. Your issue with reducing output current is 100% due to the unit overheating.

Mike
 
Thanks guys, I have been kindly supplied with a detailed wiring diagram to help me fit another unit, but from what you are saying the heat problem might become worse?

The space I have the unit in is covered over the top with a removable seat and sliding door to access the space below the seat, so I’ll try removing them and possibly fit a fan to see if that helps before buying another unit, seems silly to do that if I can’t control the heat of the pre-existing unit.

Thanks again guys, Mike.
 
Guess what guys, I decided to remove all surroundings away from the Orion unit (plenty of airflow with an outside temp of 7degrees centigrade). When the unit kicked in I was getting 29.8 amps which I could live with and drove for an hour stopping occasionally to check things out without stopping the engine. First thing I noticed was a gradual drop in in charging amperage which after 25 minutes settled at about 25 amps! I turned off all 12v electrics before starting the test.

After about 20 minutes I stopped and noticed that the unit was very hot to touch. Your comments about throttling came to mind but it’s been a cold day and I made sure that there was plenty of ventilation.

I paid an auto electrician to initially fit this unit and I know it was new to him. I’ve posted some photos, any ideas anyone as to why this is happening? I was thinking about fitting another unit in parallel to try and sort the shortfall but the overheating pre-existing unit worries me?935ECA1E-EC7A-48A3-A82C-DC589DB15139.jpeg132E8613-8988-496F-AD01-CA8A8CF72447.jpegE48E4D3F-89F3-48E2-9CFB-41FC723E7067.jpeg
 
Outside temp doesnt really matter if there isn't sufficient airflow, it will eventually heat up anyway

for testing, do you have an old 12V fan (computer fan, old power supply or so)
Tywrap/McGuyver it so it forces air through the back fins of the Orion and see if it makes any difference. If so, you can figure out a more neat setup, but it will confirm weather it's throttling due to heat or not

Ow and just to verify: The batterie does actually accept charge and isn't already full or at a high SOC? That would also explain throttling, if it's 99% full or so you won't get full amps.
Make sure you've at least 10-20Ah or so to charge... 13.5V does look pretty full to me to be honest..
 
Thanks again guys, struggling to maintain our battery at around 65/70% with no solar, (12v 4s lifepo4 battery). I’m Lucky to pull 25 amps/hr after 25 minutes with this Victron 12-12/30 b to b smart charger. It was hot to touch after 20 minutes. 15.5 v is high for lifepo4?
 
15.5 v is high for lifepo4?
Yes it is 900mv out of spec high.
14.6 is the absolute highest voltage you should ever see on a 12 volt nominal LFP battery.
A battery charged to 14.6 has to have cells that are perfectly balanced.
When the charge is terminated the voltage will settle to ~13.6 volts within a day at rest.
I hope you meant 13.5 volts.
 
I think we’re at cross purposes here guys, I showed you a picture of the Polinovel app for my battery. It reads 13.5v not 15.5? The reason I wanted folk to see the snap of this app was to see the amps while the engine is running and how they settle to 25 ish per hour after being given plenty of ventilation. My Victron 12-12/30 Orion b to b charger is underperforming by 5a/h and the unit remains very hot to touch after 20-25 minutes.

Any ideas guys?
 
I can’t figure out why the Orion is getting so hot while charging, the cables don’t seem to be too hot, maybe the guy who installed it has done something wrong?
 
For 60 C temp wire, 10 AWG is the minimum size based off ampacity. I could be wrong, but that wire looks smaller than that. 30 amps at 12 volts would have a bit of loss with a longer run. Not sure if the run is long though. Would that make the Victron hotter? Not sure.

Also would not hurt to re-torque the Victron connections. I’ve had those wires settle after the initial installation.

Not an electrician, but a single wire in a negative to me implies frame grounding, which I THOUGHT was not recommended for 30 amp charging.

I see many things connected to a single terminal. I have used busbars for that instead of stacking three things on a terminal. Some items state how many can be stacked on a single terminal.
 
Thanks for replying, the thin wires at the bottom of the picture may be misleading, they go to a 12v thermostat and only serve to activate a 10 amp heater pad below the battery if the temperature ever dropped below 5 degrees centigrade. The wires going into the Orion look about as big as you could possibly fit into the terminals?
 
I think those wires look 10 AWG to me, but I have no perspective could very well be 6 AWG. The terminals are supposed to take up to 6 AWG:


If this were a longer run, like 30’ to a battery and alternator, I’d definitely want the thicker wire. Don’t know if using 10 AWG versus 6 AWG would make a difference with heating.

I see a similar drop in power for a 15 amp Victron SCC when I leave it in the sun and it gets hot. Goes from 15 amps to 12 amps. That overheat protection is not in any of their tech data, but it does throttle back when hot to save the device.
 
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