I have had my underground water line freeze only 1 time in 15 years but don't want it again. This winter has the vibe of being a bad one. I shut the place down in Nov and drain everything I can but I fear there is a low spot in the 100 ft run and that's what may freeze cause it doesn't drain there maybe. Ideally the back siphon down the well carries most all of the water in the line back down the well after shutoff but I can't be sure. If there is say 2 gallons stuck in there after everything ,what can I do to make it freeze proof? Is there a totally non glycol solution that is harmless that might mingle with the leftover water and keep it from freezing. It's about 5 ft down. The year it did freeze I was hauling water until May before it thawed...
water freeze issue
- Thread starter e67
- Start date
wpns
Solar Joules are catch and release
There are nontoxic antifreeze solutions for marine and RV use.
Sweet Tatorman
Subsistence farmer and Sweetpotato Evangelist
If the line is fairly small diameter and the low spot is not too great of a downward dip relative to the rest of the line, you might have success blowing it out with compressed air.
Ethylene Glycol is toxic, but Propylene Glycol is fine to use (it's used in foods, cosmetics, etc.).
Also: most lines that burst when frozen do not do so because of the expanding ice itself, but because the expanding ice increases the pressure in the lines and this increased pressure causes the burst. If you leave space (no pressure, mostly empty) the chances of a burst pipe or fitting decreases dramatically.
Also: most lines that burst when frozen do not do so because of the expanding ice itself, but because the expanding ice increases the pressure in the lines and this increased pressure causes the burst. If you leave space (no pressure, mostly empty) the chances of a burst pipe or fitting decreases dramatically.
SunDave
Solar Wizard
It might not be the best solution for the OP situation, but if you go slow and learn the process, but this is the way to go for a proper job that will work every year. Good for seasonal cabins, etc. This way you also only need "RV\Marine Antifreeze" (the pink stuff) in the drains/p-traps and never in the potable water system. The largest systems I have blown out have 2" lines. Still used an oil-free dewalt air compressor like this https://www.dewalt.com/product/dxcm20020us/20-gal-xtreme-quiet-2-stage-oil-free-air-compressor. Just took a while.
General gameplan for those interested:
- Make sure your air compressor is a oil-free type so you don't introduce oil into the lines.
- Go to the hardware store and mess with fittings until you have made an air compressor (whatever variety end you use) to a regular garden hose adapter.
- Shut off any water heaters, coffee makers plumbed in, etc. first. You don't want to have elements heating the air.
- Drain everything by gravity before adding air.
- Either add an spot specifically for blowing out the lines, or some use an outdoor spigot or pressure tank to hook up to.
- Crack one water valve somewhere in the system just barely open, and leave this open the whole time. That way you can't ever fully over-pressurize your plumbing.
- Before opening any lines, start up the compressor and regulate it to something like 50 psi. Don't attempt to adjust this after you open the valve between your air compressor and what you are blowing out. You could damage your plumbing. The pressure WILL drop on the regulated tank when you open the connection between them but that's ok.
- Remove aerators and shower heads if possible. Use a rag draped over the fixtures as you open them to protect surrounding items and walls. One by one, open each fixture. Hot, then cold. It's best to cycle through all the fixtures several times to make sure the lines are clear. On faucets that don't have separate hot and cold taps, cycle between the hot and cold side of the swing, then the middle. You are looking for them to clear almost completely. Should be just air by the time you are fully done. Especially on a small building.
- If you have toilets, get a water key ready if needed to shut off the valve behind the toilet in a moment. Flush the toilet, then let the water line move air until it is just spitting air. Close the toilet water valve. Use a wet/dry vac to clear water from the top tank and the bowl. Have the RV antifreeze handy since the sewer gas will come up the toilet unless you add the antifreeze back to the bowl. Use plenty because it will evaporate over time.
- To clear washing machines, run part of cycle on warm (so you are using both hot and cold lines). Once it has been just air for a while and not water, they can be shut off, then start the drain\spin cycle.
- Fill any floor drains, p-traps, and even the drains behind washers with RV antifreeze.
Let me know if you have any questions.
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SunDave
Solar Wizard
Hi. While true in some cases, gravity can be a bugger. The left over water usually finds the low point over time, and sits in a valve or some constrained area. There are a lot of dips in the plumbing built right into systems that are not specifically designed to be winterized. Water goes to sink shutoffs, then back up to faucet. Water goes to toilet shut-off, then back up to the tank. Water heater drain valves are on the bottom. You get the idea.
The whole discussion revolves around how cold is cold as well
so for many, good enough may very well be good enough.
Hi. While true in some cases, gravity can be a bugger. The left over water usually finds the low point over time, and sits in a valve or some constrained area. There are a lot of dips in the plumbing built right into systems that are not specifically designed to be winterized. Water goes to sink shutoffs, then back up to faucet. Water goes to toilet shut-off, then back up to the tank. Water heater drain valves are on the bottom. You get the idea.
The whole discussion revolves around how cold is cold as well
You can also hook up a compressor to the water line and blow it out. That's what I do when it gets cold and I'm not around.
DC_Ripple
Solar Addict
If this is something you will do often (or repeatable each season), consider adding a connection for a compressor with a ball valve cutoff. You can then connect the compressor easily any time you want.
Even a simple schrader valve will work.
Even a simple schrader valve will work.
Living the Dream
New Member
If you have mixing (tempering cartridges) in fixtures pull them. I can’t count how many of our clients forget this step. The potential downside is pretty $$$.
SunDave
Solar Wizard
Hi. Thank you for the info. I don't do this now, and have not yet had a problem, but I want to learn it. It's possible that the resort I'm working on doesn't have any.
Just to be clear, you don't mean mixing as in fixtures that have both hot and cold in one handle, but rather the tempering/mixing cartridges so a shower or other fixture can only get so hot right?
Also, compressed air cannot clear them because they don't open up to "mix" until a certain temperature has been reached?
DC_Ripple
Solar Addict
Also, compressed air cannot clear them because they don't open up to "mix" until a certain temperature has been reached?
Correct.
See picture here:
Correct.
See picture here:
SunDave
Solar Wizard
Similar in thought to the setup I rigged up. I instead made an adapter hose for the air compressor, that way it works with each building I work on. Goes from my air fitting on the oil-less compressor to a short wash machine hose. That way I can rig it up about anywhere. On the large buildings, I also added a regular hose spigot right where I need it, and also added some to the large pipes at the lowest point of the building. It's a bugger blowing water from a 2" pipe back up and out a spigot somewhere. Better to work with gravity, even when using air to clear a system.
Nice to be able to gravity drain the bulk water first.
Thanks for all your insight.
SunDave
Solar Wizard
There are also ways to insulate the line. Leaves, blankets made specifically for it, piling snow on it, if it does snow. If you make a wide band of any extra insulating material over top of the line, the ground below it should be able to retain more heat from below. Not perfect, but it may be an extra step that helps. Around here sometimes people pile leaves over the lines running to septic tanks.
The RV antifreeze (pink) solution may help you, or a bit of compressed air if you can find a way to rig it up.
If it's a short run and a constant pain, you could re-trench the line lower when the good season comes again, or dig in and bury some insulation for a more permanent solution.
Just some ideas.
Living the Dream
New Member
We have found that water in any type of cartridge (especially downstairs fixtures) stands a chance of water migrating into a shower valve or a tub valve and freezing. This applies to tempering or nontempering cartrige valves. Even if they are left in the open position to drain, it's "ghost water" a substantial number that aren’t pulled develop leaks or worse. We just usually pull them put them in a safe place for the winter and apply a little lube come spring for optimal results. Side note, many of our clients are pretty remote and it is sometimes a several hour round trip to get to their place of residence. Many of them actually needed a bit of lube in the first place as they do get stiff from sitting.
All good solutions for an annoying problem, of course, the best solution is to dig a deeper trench and get the pipe below the frost line.
Living the Dream
New Member
Another easy trick....is to put a layer of foam board a foot or so over a sufficiently deep water or sewage line. Cheap insurance (our area has made it mandatory) to keep heat in the ground. High vehicle traffic areas, and plowed areas tend to have a much deeper frost line than normal. A city water department I'm familiar with had to do this in several hi traffic intersections when the water lines would sometimes freeze deeper than 12'.
seneysolar
24V
You can lay closed cell 2" foam on the ground in full sheets. Just set a couple rocks on them. It will keep the frost out of the ground. I had a house i had to do that with, once it snows you cant see them anyways. Just pick them up in the spring and use them next year. Snow is a good insulation too, so let it build up, try not to walk or pack it down where your water is.
Tulex
Solar Wizard
Fill it with Vodka. The party in spring is awesome.
Tulex
Solar Wizard
I have a line from my house to my detached garage. Every year I just disconnect it in the house and blow it out.
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