wattcycle bait and switch

[big-pete-007]

I am eager to hear your opinion of my first and recent transaction with wattcycle batteries..
on their website I went to the 12v 100Ah battery. there are 2 types. type 1 is the the group 24 with an advertised BMS of 100amp and type 2 is the GROUP 31 with advertised 110amp BMS. When you select the type 2 (group 31) it shows a picture of the 12v PRO version and 110amp is selected.

I purchased a type 2 (group 31) shown as PRO version with 110amp BMS.

I received a different battery than what was shown. see attached photos. I received a 12v 100Ah 100amp BMS battery that was not what was shown in the picture and not the PRO version as advertised in the image on their website.

When I contacted support, they are trying to tell me that the battery I received was the 110amp BMS version even though it says 100amp right on the side of it and event though it doesn't look anything like the image on the website.

I am curious of your thoughts of even if you have some way of helping. also, is this something worth escalating? what would you do?? I feel like I got ripped off especially when the PRO version is the exact same price.

here are some of the communications between me and their chat support. Its very confusing.

​ WattCycle-US Hi Peter, thanks for the interest in WattCycle. The difference between the 12v 100ah and the 12v 100ah Pro is mainly size and BMS. The 12V 100Ah regular(Group 24) is 10.2 x 6.6 x 8.2 inches | 23.0 lbs, the BMS is 100A. And the 12V 100Ah Pro (Group 31) is 13.0 x 6.9 x 8.7 inches | 26.0 lbs. BMS is 110A, more power output.

[td]

what is the difference between these two batteries? https://www.wattcycle.com/products/wattcycle-12v-100ah-group-31-lifepo4-battery https://www.wattcycle.com/products/...oup-24-lifepo4-battery?variant=49398132212008

[/td]​

​ WattCycle-US Sorry for late reply. Does the battery size correct?

​ WattCycle-US Hi Peter, after a further a check that there is an error on the battery sticker, the actual BMS is 110A, you can test it yourself, if you have any questions please feel free to contact us, thank you very much for pointing this out, we will correct it on the next product sticker.

[td]

I'm sorry about causing a problem but I cannot accept this battery because it's not the one I purchased. It even shows a picture on your website of the pro version and 110bms when selecting the group 31 battery. Please help

[/td]​

[td]

Peter

please don't try to convince me that this is the correct battery when it doesn't look like what's on the website and the actual side of the battery says 100amp bms. I trust you will correct the issue.. please.

[/td]​

 

[rodrick]

Put a 110 amp load on it and see if it works if not return it as defective

 

[big-pete-007]

Put a 110 amp load on it and see if it works if not return it as defective

What's the easiest way to do this without costing me money? being just a beginner I really do not have anything other than my winch to use with it.

 

[Texas-Mark]

IMO there are cheaper options out there that also have bluetooth.

That said, the 110A BMS thing probably won't make much of a difference in actual use.

 

[doc3g]

Really depends on your use. If your end goal is to be able to pull a full 110A, then it would be worth either testing or really fighting them to take it back. If it isn't much of a real-use issue, then I would ask them for some compensation for the incorrect labeling, which will probably put you closer to the price of a better-priced option.

 

[rodrick]

What's the easiest way to do this without costing me money? being just a beginner I really do not have anything other than my winch to use with it.

You will need a shunt and a large inverter then just put a load on it until you hit your target, heat guns, space heaters ect. Make a good load

 

[Texas-Mark]

I really do not have anything other than my winch to use with it.

Is that what you plan to use it for? If so, just see if it holds up under load.

 

[big-pete-007]

I thank you all for the suggestions and comments but I think you're missing the point. when selecting the battery online it shows a picture of the PRO version when the 110Amp BMS is selected as if you were going to get that battery when you make that selection. I then receive a battery that says 100amp BMS on the side and when I ask the manufacturer they say .. umm the sticker is wrong, it has a 110amp BMS in it.. wink wink.. do I need an extra 10amp to operate my winch? probably not but who knows what I will be using the battery for in the future. do I need to go buy an inverter and run my own tests to see if the battery is capable of 110amp? I just feel like I paid for one thing and got something else and when the manufacturer was confronted, they said.. heyyyy.. dont worry what the side of the battery says.. it umm really has a 110amp BMS in it.. the bottom line is that its the WRONG PRODUCT that was sent based on the images when purchasing and based on what the side of the battery specifically says.. I am planning on writing up an email to wattcycle support trying to return or swap out the battery with the one shown online when ordering. with no disrespect to anyone here the answer shouldn't be "well does it work for what you planning to use it on? if so, don't worry about it" or "run your own tests on it to confirm the sticker on the side is incorrect". You should just get what you order. I'd be curious as to what @Will Prowse has to say about this..

 

[robbob2112]

I think between this sort of thing and the 280ah vs 300ah snafu I have lost any faith in wattcycle. They seem to be trying to make good, but they keep missing the mark.

For your issue the group 24 verse 31 is just the case and foam padding.... same capacity cells.... the 100 vs 110 bms would only really matter if they actually cut off at those levels. From Will's teardown it seems like they far exceed that.

And since you are new you may not realize the BMS is just a fancy cutoff switch with a bunch of parallel MOSFETs doing the switching. For safety it is supposed to monitor the current and turnoff at max value or after a certain time at max value.

With Will's teardown and current test i wonder if the max current even applies at all.

So, make sure to put a correctly sized MRBF fuse with holder on the positive post... for the 100amp bms I use a 125amp fuse and cable to match...which exceeds the 110ah you ordered.

And later you will buy better batteries... it is addictive

 

[smcguyer]

Wattcycle... Let's see.... what's up with the 9.2 volt low voltage cutoff.... incredible this is not covered in the "teardowns" - will this kill your battery; hmmm....... typos in the manual; obviously TRUE GRADE B or REJECT cells (confirmed by the price.. duh...); BMS that cannot actually balance (too low amperage in the balance circuit for typical real world grade b conditions), no overdischarge protection; sketchy bluetooth app..; mystery BMS; incorrect clearances inside on at least one teardown; stressing components; I seriously doubt they will be in business in 2 years; 280 versus 300 ah controversy is the LEAST problematic issue here...

 

[robbob2112]

For those of us who already have one....

I am seriously thinking of replacing the BMS with something that is a known quality

 

[robbob2112]

Well, I ordered a 300a JBD BMS... since my top came popped should not be to hard to get it open again... not sure the new BMS will fit where the old one is, so may have to use a different case or add a ring to extend the top.

 

[robbob2112]

Well, no shock here - I moved the battery across the room and the lid popped off - so I guess the new BMS install will be easy.

 

[Gadwall*Drake]

I would take it as a sign, for sure!

 

[smcguyer]

Well, no shock here - I moved the battery across the room and the lid popped off - so I guess the new BMS install will be easy.

IMHO you are very lucky. I would not want any lithium battery that did not have a removable top. It's required to inspect the insides for problems; test cells with a multimeter; MANUALLY top balance each cell with a power supply- so you can do the critical top balance job better than any BMS, while simultaneously revealing important INITIAL clues on the amount of cell mismatch; and allows for future repairs, given biggest risk is BMS failure. You can very easily add some sealant and strapping to make your top waterproof and removable later on..

 

[robbob2112]

yeah - well, apparently the terminal bolt heads are rubbing the top of the cells and the wires BMS contacts the bottom side of the lib and rubs.... SOOOO if I put the lid back on it will be with a strap and a spacer to lift it up so nothing rubs...

They were concentrating so hard on making it small they forgot to allow clearance for everything.

 

[42OhmsPA]

Well, I ordered a 300a JBD BMS

Which one did you go with? I didn't know they had a 4S 300A.

 

[robbob2112]

The 4th selection on this page - model is SP04S060

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256807462627091.html

They were out of stock yesterday on

JBD Smart BMS 4~22S 8S 17S 20S 21S 100A Li-ion Lithium Battery PCB for Freeshipping - Jiabaida BMS

Jiabaida BMS JBD Smart BMS 4~22S 8S 17S 20S 21S 100A Li-ion Lithium Battery PCB With Uart Rs485. High quality better service and favorable price with free shipping. Battery Management System for NMC/Li-ion Lifepo4 battery

jiabaida-bms.com

JBD Smart BMS 4S LiFePo4 300A Balance Li-ion LiFePo4 NMC 18650 Power Bank Battery Packs Bms 3S 4S 12V With BT UART RS485 CANBUS

 

[42OhmsPA]

The 4th selection on this page - model is SP04S060

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256807462627091.html

View attachment 271829

View attachment 271828

JBD Smart BMS 4S LiFePo4 300A Balance Li-ion LiFePo4 NMC 18650 Power Bank Battery Packs Bms 3S 4S 12V With BT UART RS485 CANBUS

Nice, Thank you. I should order one of them, could come in handy for high C rate cells.

 

[robbob2112]

I've asked for a refund on my wattcycle now after the rubbing - hopping they just refund and let me keep it -- if they don't I'll order cells and use the BMS that way.


I guess this is me dipping my little toe in DIY batteries - these cells are welded and the rest of the construction looks good... the balance leads are screwed so simple to change the BMS

 

[robbob2112]

I am a whore - they offered another 12v100ah group 24 battery to keep it

So I will shorten my cables and pad the top of the cell with foam and a bit of a spacer to keep the terminal bolts from hitting... then change the BMS...

It occured to me a bolt with a thinner head or a stud/grub screw into the bottom of the terminal with a thinner nut might work to prevent impact on the cell....

 

[smcguyer]

I am a whore - they offered another 12v100ah group 24 battery to keep it

So I will shorten my cables and pad the top of the cell with foam and a bit of a spacer to keep the terminal bolts from hitting... then change the BMS...

It occured to me a bolt with a thinner head or a stud/grub screw into the bottom of the terminal with a thinner nut might work to prevent impact on the cell....

Well since the top is already open, maybe you can find a thermoelectric cooler and fiqure out a way to add a cooler to keep the battery from getting hot... I saw somewhere that a high-end battery manufacture uses a BMS to log the cycles and lifetime temps, then adjusts the warranty based on this. In other words battery life/warranty is derated for temps above say 80 degrees. Apparently Sun FUn Kits is designing a battery with hot and cold automatic temp control. This is probably where the whole industry is going? Maybe mount the entire battery in a thermoelectric beer cooler and add a thermostat...

 

[robbob2112]

it is in my office - and the new BMS has way better heat sinks... so average temp is 22c/72f

And I am thinking hard on just printing an expander ring in 2 parts (can't fit it in one on my printers) ... then just put it in between the case and the current lid. Along with shorter cables to the BMS.

 

[WattsItToYa]

Sounds good please put me down for two repair kits lol.

I’m starting to think Wattcycle should just discount these heavily and market them as a DIY kit.
Make sure they are sent with the tops completely detached and the end user can make the necessary safety mods and install a quality BMS!

 

[smcguyer]

Sounds good please put me down for two repair kits lol.

I’m starting to think Wattcycle should just discount these heavily and market them as a DIY kit.
Make sure they are sent with the tops completely detached and the end user can make the necessary safety mods and install a quality BMS!

My current assessment of the china grade b-c- reject battery industry is that every battery should have a screw down top. Are any of these companies going to exist 2 years from now? I doubt it. If I buy one, I am going to manually top balance the cells anyway with a power supply. Maybe every 6 months or so. My understanding is most cheap BMS cannot even realistically balance aged cells, as the balance amperage is too low to do the job right. So the whole design is pretty much a fail from the start. Solid cases only make sense for true Grade A batteries, with a warranty backed by a company that is going to exist for 10 years...