Pickuptrck
NV owner builder
If you're able to post your research this far, not repeating completed works is always appreciated!
Well, it was as bad as expected
- Thread starter Pickuptrck
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Steve_S
Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
LOL, Sanity is relevant... In my case, the terrain is NOT power co friendly, being a forest is tough enough but I am also on a 1200 foot Granite Ridge above 3 joining valley's, That means working "with the rock" and that adds labour & material costs too. NO trenching for underground wires... Also, there is no residential potential beyond my place as I am surrounded by protected lands, so there would be no way for downline cost recovery.
Pickuptrck
NV owner builder
Nevermind! Didn't realize I was on roaming so I didn't see the attachments ?. Tax benefits are high on the research-needed list.
Edited below:
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Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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With insulation between 2-by-x studs on 16" centers, half the heat escapes through the wood. Thicker wall looses less than 2x4, but still half through the wood. If you double framed exterior walls with two staggered rows of 2x4 there would be no continuous conduction path at the studs, only the top and sole plates. Single on the bottom, double on the top is 4 linear feet, half what the studs are. Could put a 1" gap between the walls making it 9" thick. Only floor decking and ceiling joists would go through.
If just single wall framing, sheet insulation under or over sheathing would help. (The structure would not be as rigid with sheathing over insulation.)
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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Not a tax professional here, so check with your CPA, but I think credits are in fact available without itemizing.
Pickuptrck
NV owner builder
I was thinking the same. Definitely worth a check though. At the very least it should be considered a property upgrade to qualify for the 27.5yr spread. Most things are a 1-for-1 replacement, this is more like a new feature and being attached to the dwelling does add value unlike a power pole run. I couldn't see the IRS contradicting HUD to argue that power is a non essential, but his blurs a few line in the forum world so I'll leave it to the pros... Thanks for the spur of thought though as I was tracking credit for professional installation only.
Regarding utility power:
I ran into a similar circumstance in Washington. I lived with a Honda generator until I found a way to make the project affordable.
The power company charged a "base price" for a service drop then added all of the "extras" to complete the job. I asked how far they would make the drop at the base price. I measured in that far and set my own pole. I had them drop to the pole, weather head, meter base and service disconnect that I had provided. Once they completed the drop, I ran the balance of the run to the house underground.
I paid about $1800 to the power company and about $2000 on materials, machine rental and some hired help. Much better than $15k.
One note: to get good pricing on the pole required picking it up myself. Shipping (15 miles) was twice as much as the pole. That turned out to be one of the bigger challenges.
I ran into a similar circumstance in Washington. I lived with a Honda generator until I found a way to make the project affordable.
The power company charged a "base price" for a service drop then added all of the "extras" to complete the job. I asked how far they would make the drop at the base price. I measured in that far and set my own pole. I had them drop to the pole, weather head, meter base and service disconnect that I had provided. Once they completed the drop, I ran the balance of the run to the house underground.
I paid about $1800 to the power company and about $2000 on materials, machine rental and some hired help. Much better than $15k.
One note: to get good pricing on the pole required picking it up myself. Shipping (15 miles) was twice as much as the pole. That turned out to be one of the bigger challenges.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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We saw you in the news!
www.tampabay.com
Man arrested after I-4 power pole is found strapped to his car roof
Douglas Allen Hatley found the downed pole along the highway near the I-75 interchange and tried to sell it for scrap Monday, the Highway Patrol said.
After reading this, I believe you’re right. Good catch!
Pickuptrck
NV owner builder
"Hatley has been arrested on 48 occasions since 1971". LOL. That's impressive. In a bad way, but impressive.
We saw you in the news!
Man arrested after I-4 power pole is found strapped to his car roof
Douglas Allen Hatley found the downed pole along the highway near the I-75 interchange and tried to sell it for scrap Monday, the Highway Patrol said.
Close
Mine was twice as long
jvbutter01
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where do you get data on 2x4 boards loosing 1/2 the thermal heat of 16" on center walls? Wood is an insulator. If you have good insulation between the studs, you wont have 1/2 heat loss?
Yes doing an extra layer on your external wall is best, has anyone heard of double pane windows, or triple?
solarsimon
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If you live anywhere that gets cold you'll soon learn that wood is not an insulator. It's way better than stone, but that's about it
I don’t see any copper there. Wires, lugs etc.
Will your panel racking be just landscape timbers?
Edit: I just saw that you left those out for now. Focused on the tree (spreadsheet) and missed the forest
More coffee please
Looking forward to seeing pictures of the racking you build.
Also wish we had met when I tried unsuccessfully to get a group buy of panels together this summer from SanTanSolar to Ohio.
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jvbutter01
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Yes I am well familiar with the insulation properties of wood. the point is 1/2 of the heat is not lost through the 2" wide space between the insulation panels. That's all. Its not that inefficient. If one would use metal frame studs, then you can reduce the heat loss even further. I think we have digressed from the OP topic.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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A 2x stud is under 2" thick, about 1.5" (which helps your insulation). 16" on center, you have 14.5" fiberglass batt insulation, 1.5" wood.
If thermal conductivity of wood is 10 times that of the fiberglass insulation, half you heat would escape through each.
Insulation is usually quoted in R value, and thermal conductivity in units representing the inverse.
R value is BTU/hour lost through 1 square foot area of material 1" thick if 1 degree F temperature difference between inside and out.
(for engineering Conductivity is usually quoted as W/mK, Watts conducted per degree K (or C) through a cube 1m thick, 1m x 1m area.
thicker (Z) of course reduces conduction, and more area (larger X or Y) increases conduction.)
R-value (insulation) - Wikipedia
Table on that page shows:
High Density Fiberglass Batts R3.6 to R5
Softwood (most) R1.41
Hardwood R0.71
So using these numbers, fiberglass insulation is 7x higher R value that hardwood, 3.5x higher than softwood.
Also I read that wood conducts heat better with the grain than across it.
My "half the heat loss" figure appears close given these values.
If area of studs is 1/10th area of insulation, R value of wood in parallel with insulation is:
1/(1/(10/11*5) + 1/(1/11*1.41)) = 3.52 for softwood, a bit better than half of R5
1/(1/(10/11*5) + 1/(1/11*0.71) = 2.87 for hardwood, slightly better than half of R5
These R values are all for 1" thick wall; yours might be about 3.5" for 2x4, 5.5" for 2x6
According to the math I just did, almost half the heat is lost through the 1.5" wide space between insulation batts.
It is that inefficient. Or, fiberglass insulation is that good, approaches point of diminishing returns.
Since OP wanted to avoid losing heat through the walls, I pointed out that a thermal break to block heat through the studs could insulating value. Polyurethane is 4x better than wood, so a 1" layer over a 4" thick wall would cut loss through wood in half, reducing loss through wall (if no windows) by 25%.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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Speaking of steel studs, they are less fire resistant than wood studs (who's core remains solid longer, when steel has weakened)
Metal Studs Vs. Wood Studs: Which To Choose? - Today's Homeowner
Learn about the pros and cons of metal studs and wood studs for light framing in construction and find out which material best suits your project's needs.
innovativebuildingmaterials.com
"Steel studs are known to have a low mass, so they weaken and break easily in a fire."
"Firefighters know that steel studs will collapse even quicker than wood studs in a fire."
i.e., common sense doesn't always hold true.
Speaking of steel studs, they are less fire resistant than wood studs (who's core remains solid longer, when steel has weakened)
Metal Studs Vs. Wood Studs: Which To Choose? - Today's Homeowner
Learn about the pros and cons of metal studs and wood studs for light framing in construction and find out which material best suits your project's needs.
"Steel studs are known to have a low mass, so they weaken and break easily in a fire."
"Firefighters know that steel studs will collapse even quicker than wood studs in a fire."
i.e., common sense doesn't always hold true.
Dang! Now I'm going to have to change my entire design to use cement studs. No, I'm going with a double layer of solid concrete walls with 2" rigid foam between them.
