They are both the same technology. But making lead acid batteries is easy peasy, for example like a tortilla. Making a lithium battery is like making a croissant. A lithium has tons of layers and if you mess anything up it ruins the whole thing
What 280's do I buy from Amy?
- Thread starter waxmo
- Start date
Thanks Bob. I think I get your tortilla croissant comparison. Correct me if I'm wrong. The whole idea is to get as much surface area of the Anode and Cathode exposed in the electrolyte soup. More surface area, more election flow. I'm guessing a prismatic cell has a folding ribbon design of anode cathode. A cyndrical cell uses a spiral method. Yes, I now understand the manufacturing complexity of these cell is much greater than I assumed. That would account for a much higher rejection rate in manufacturing. I have never torn apart a lead acid battery. I think the composition is lead, zinc and sulphuric acid. Is the lead and zinc also intertwined through out the electrolyte to increase surface area in a lead acid battery? Makes sense, since they are low melting point moldable metals.
BatteryNut
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Have you ever heard of the term "metrology"? And millions of transistors? Try BILLIONS. Do you think processors are made by little machines placing tiny nanometer scale transistors on a circuit board? You might want to look up VLSI and modern lithography, and maybe peruse KLA-Tencor's product portfolio.
As far as your question on why there are so few commercial scale prismatic LiFeO4 cell manufacturers in the US, well, there are a lot of reasons:
1) significant initial capital investment = high barrier of entry
2) institutional momentum and capital recovery of existing Li-Ion operations
3) significant focus on EV, along with the baggage that comes with the auto industry
4) corporate outlook points to disruptive battery technology coming to market in the next 5 years, so lack of interest to invest and compete in a market with mature products and dominant players
But really, your real question is why there are so few (if any) US sourced battery choices that fit within YOUR budget and needs, and the truth is you, and people like you, don't matter. Prime cells get eaten up by EV manufacturers, electronics manufacturers, industrial/utility scale energy storage solutions, and entities who can cut multi million dollar checks to sustain a non-trivial production run. How large do you think the market for DIY LiFeO4 battery bank is?
Look at the attached screenshots of the 2020 DOE report and try to see where you fit.
Attachments
TLDR: Us diy'ers are riding the coat tails of power grid storage
Steve_S
Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
It's funny but somehow people think that every single cell get's tested when the things come out of the machinery like Bullets from a .30CAL GPMG. The cells are sampled during production runs, they pull out random cells and seriously test them. Some bad batches & cells get through.
CASE IN POINT - LG & Chevy Bolt ! They are recalling ALL of the Bolts and replacing ALL Of the battery packs because SOME had folded separators, some had torn tabs and both conditions resulted in runaway thermal events. This damage happened During Production, Internal to the machines, and was NOT CAUGHT by Sampling Tests, Those BTW Are POUCH Li-Ion cells.
If they catch flaws During Batches, they can & often pull the Batch if there is a serious error. Some goto Recycle (if that bad) and the rest can end up in Grey Market B or worse graded. Battery Brokers scoop these up and flog them off.
LFP Licenses are locked till 2022 and then Global Production can occur. Note IP Rights. Part of that was covered here: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/l...ns-affecting-auto-industry.25549/#post-301877
LFP produced in Canada ! Yes, already started https://volthium.com/en/
LFP and any Lithium is NOTHING like Lead or Alkaline batteries in ANY way. There is no comparison.
CASE IN POINT - LG & Chevy Bolt ! They are recalling ALL of the Bolts and replacing ALL Of the battery packs because SOME had folded separators, some had torn tabs and both conditions resulted in runaway thermal events. This damage happened During Production, Internal to the machines, and was NOT CAUGHT by Sampling Tests, Those BTW Are POUCH Li-Ion cells.
If they catch flaws During Batches, they can & often pull the Batch if there is a serious error. Some goto Recycle (if that bad) and the rest can end up in Grey Market B or worse graded. Battery Brokers scoop these up and flog them off.
LFP Licenses are locked till 2022 and then Global Production can occur. Note IP Rights. Part of that was covered here: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/l...ns-affecting-auto-industry.25549/#post-301877
LFP produced in Canada ! Yes, already started https://volthium.com/en/
LFP and any Lithium is NOTHING like Lead or Alkaline batteries in ANY way. There is no comparison.
I'm sorry Batterynut. I thought modern day processors had millions/billions of transistors placed on a silicon wafers by tiny tiny little robotic arms. My bad
It blows my mind what happened in the world of computers. In 1979, my first job, I sold a computer about the size of a washer and dryer for $25k. It had 32k of hand wound core memory, and 5mb of removable disc storage and a 12 inch monochrome. I don't believe we included a chair.
Your 4 points on barriers that exist to the entry in the battery market is brilliant. The USA should have got in battery storage market years ago. We sold our sole to China, and now they control vast quantities of rare earth elements. Yes I understand Lithium iron phosphate is "old" technology and the DIY market is miniscule.
It blows my mind what happened in the world of computers. In 1979, my first job, I sold a computer about the size of a washer and dryer for $25k. It had 32k of hand wound core memory, and 5mb of removable disc storage and a 12 inch monochrome. I don't believe we included a chair.
Your 4 points on barriers that exist to the entry in the battery market is brilliant. The USA should have got in battery storage market years ago. We sold our sole to China, and now they control vast quantities of rare earth elements. Yes I understand Lithium iron phosphate is "old" technology and the DIY market is miniscule.
Yes SteveS my comparison of these cells to lead acid was stupid. The do have in common a anode/cathode electrolyte design, but the lithium cell is much more complex. I'm learning O Great Masters. That's why I'm here. To learn. I appreciate your help and tolerance.
Short_Shot
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This whole statement leads me to believe you don't actually know anything about how they're made and that your comments on what can or should be, can be ignored.
If it's so simple please feel free to start production. After all, folks in India build lead acid batteries on the side of the road, and it's "the same concept" right?
Short_Shot
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RobertGreen
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I'm curious which specific types of chemistries/tech are being looked at for this next wave?
BatteryNut
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QuantumScape, Solid Power, sodium. These are the immediate ones that come to mind.
Pierre
Somewhere down South
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I concur. a Friend of mine here did a group buy from Amy - 210 cells of 280Ah , A grade , all matched with test certificates. Took about 2 months from order to delivery . Group is very happy and busy with 2nd group buy. Go Amy !Amy Wan,
Luyuan Tech on Alibaba,
Shenzhen Luyuan Technology Co., Ltd. - Lifepo4 battery, LTO battery
Shenzhen Luyuan Technology Co., Ltd., Experts in Manufacturing and Exporting Lifepo4 battery, LTO battery and 0 more Products.szluyuan.en.alibaba.com
For a Proper Quote, you must open a Chat or Messenger session and give her the shipping addrtess. The Quote Guesstimator is way out of whack.
EvilChuck
New Member
Volthium might have designed/developed/created/etc… the product but they certainly don’t « produced » them. Their lead time is a gimme as far as provenance goes. I also highly doubt they have produced the BMS (w/bluetooth support, etc..). The fact remains it is an excellent product but on the pricy side for a diyer. I have had some written/vocal exchanges with them a few months back and I was impressed by their presentation. I live in Quebec, so I can’t be against my « tribe ». ?
Steve_S
Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
You know, if your in Montreal, I'd call up Lion Electric (Bus & Truck company) and inquire if they have a Canadian source for the cells they use. I do believe they use LFP and NMC ? ... Never know, sure as hell can't hurt to ask. There may be other possibilities too.... wink, wink, nudge, nudge, eh whut. hehehe
