What happened to the 24v DIY system web page?

[Tecnodave]

Here 48 volt on charge is considered to be maximum 60 volts so it is required here, We have the toughest codes in the Country. Basically California has upped the NEC by dissecting it and issuing the CEC which fine tunes the NEC.

The CEC is based on the NEC but published one year later so the NEC 2020 becomes the CEC 2021

 

[Supervstech]

NEC typically kicks in for voltages > 48VDC, which is why things like lawn/garden lighting and so forth is 48VDC.

The question is whether the AHJ and insurance company would treat a 48v nominal battery as 48V, or consider it to be closer to its true voltage of 56V. If the latter, then NEC applies.

That said, the requirement would be to protect the wiring, not necessarily in conduit, though conduit is often the easiest way to do so. This is similar to what’s required for 110/240VAC. Surface mounting Romex isn’t kosher (need to use MC), but running romex through wall cavities when properly secured is acceptable.

Protection simply means from damage. As long as surfaces are protruding beyond the cables, they are protected.
For instance, runs between stud walls are protected, runs along the surface of the studs are not.
I run into issues all the time, where electricians have run romex across the studs in attics with pull down ladders… not allowed by code. Have to be between or through studs.
But that is protection from specific issues. Attic protection is from construction or storage damage. Basement and garages need protection from sheet rockers etc… also GFCI protection.

If the battery area is in a room dedicated to batteries, with a door, the rules are less restrictive.

 

[Tecnodave]

Technically......The outer sheathing of Romex is a conduit so wiring in protected spaces can be romex but not 3 strands of THHN wire, and the Romex needs to be protected as well, running through holes in the studs and not surface mounted. Here stapling romex on studs is allowed in non occupied attic spaces but not in occupied attic spaces.
No storage in Attic with surface mounted romex, access to attic for service only.

We do have tough code interpretation, in the code itself it does state “When in dought refer to the AHJ” That leaves the determination of the installation to the AHJ.

 

[Supervstech]

Technically......The outer sheathing of Romex is a conduit so wiring in protected spaces can be romex but not 3 strands of THHN wire, and the Romex needs to be protected as well, running through holes in the studs and not surface mounted. Here stapling romex on studs is allowed in non occupied attic spaces but not in occupied attic spaces.
No storage in Attic with surface mounted romex, access to attic for service only.

We do have tough code interpretation, in the code itself it does state “When in dought refer to the AHJ” That leaves the determination of the installation to the AHJ.

Yup, what most electricians don’t realize is the attic access rule… if a ladder is needed to access the attic, wiring only needs to be protected within 3’ of the access opening… if permanent acces is built in, ALL WIRING within 7’ of the floor of the attic needs to be protected. Huge difference. And it is the reason many houses have only a hole to access the attic… not a drop down ladder.

 

[Tecnodave]

It’s all in how the code is interpreted, I can install a main box with the 200 Amp with the POCO feed in PVC-40 conduit if I do not stay the POCO feed to the mast but if i stay the POCO feed to the mast at the weather-head I must use IMC or RMC steel conduit.

 

[Tecnodave]

Yup, what most electricians don’t realize is the attic access rule… if a ladder is needed to access the attic, wiring only needs to be protected within 3’ of the access opening… if permanent acces is built in, ALL WIRING within 7’ of the floor of the attic needs to be protected. Huge difference. And it is the reason many houses have only a hole to access the attic… not a drop down ladder.

You are exactly correct on that issue, most homeowners do not realize that. And a lot of electricians, we have tough inspectors.

 

[Hedges]

Higher that (mostly) safe voltage up to 50V, e.g. battery operating up to 60V or so, exposed conductors must be covered such that a tool is required for access. That protects the Great Unwashed from their ignorance.

Romex vs. individual THHN - that will change cooling and ampacity. Would be good to have a ventilated protection solution. Cable trays?

 

[eXodus]

The question is whether the AHJ and insurance company would treat a 48v nominal battery as 48V, or consider it to be closer to its true voltage of 56V. If the latter, then NEC applies.

an insurance main job is not to pay claims and create fear that they would not pay claims for people to build safer systems.

So my assumption would be that if something happens they going to try to wiggle their way out.
If there is a threshold - no matter how small it is. There is a box on form to be checked - if they cover you till 50V and you 50.1V - your claim will be denied.

And that's not California code - that Underwriters from Insurances.
If you care about insurance coverage - build you system exactly to code.

If you can't get insurance for something - there is usually a risk involved.

 

[Tecnodave]

Higher that (mostly) safe voltage up to 50V, e.g. battery operating up to 60V or so, exposed conductors must be covered such that a tool is required for access. That protects the Great Unwashed from their ignorance.

Romex vs. individual THHN - that will change cooling and ampacity. Would be good to have a ventilated protection solution. Cable trays?

View attachment 78829

Personally I like cable trays, I do use them in my “power shack” I skirt the code by using a large old motorhome as a power shack.....it’s a vehicle, regulated by the State which trumps the county building code. To be a motorhome it must have 3 of the following 4 items......sink,stove,bed,referigerator....those have been stripped but the “motorhome“ has been certified by the State housing authority as it had an Onan generator as factory built again trumping the county building authority. By this all my power is not in my house except the essential items...

The state CDF fire marshal wanted to look and when I showed him ground rods, Arc Fault and Ground fault built in, SPD’s etc. he was happy and gave me a pass, as he sees it as a power room /battery room. he now has me look over off grid systems that are not permitted to determine system safety

 

[svsagres]

Higher that (mostly) safe voltage up to 50V, e.g. battery operating up to 60V or so, exposed conductors must be covered such that a tool is required for access. That protects the Great Unwashed from their ignorance.

Romex vs. individual THHN - that will change cooling and ampacity. Would be good to have a ventilated protection solution. Cable trays?

View attachment 78829

It all really comes down to how its implemented. At the nonprofit I work with, we have our own private hydro-electric power system. In the power house, there is 2400V delta 3 phase running through open cable trays using relatively simple insulated wire. However, said cable trays are hung a good 12’ (I forget the exact number) above the floor, and the risers from the generators and such are in steel conduit. Our local AHJ is pretty much lost for voltages higher than 440V, but accepted the safety report from our EE.

My point is realistically that as with all these questions and threads, the devil is in the details and your AHJ’s interpretation of the rules.

 

[Tecnodave]

I did a whole career at G-E, the local buildings were baffled when they saw what we were doing, but when the lead engineer signed off the installation the building authority yielded to the engineers

 

[gelmjw]

What happened to the 24v DIY system...........................​

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

What happened to the 24v DIY system...........................​

It's right there: https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/2000-watt-24v-solar-system.html

 

[gelmjw]

It's right there: https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/2000-watt-24v-solar-system.html

The discussion has drifted from its roots.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

The discussion has drifted from its roots.

Right, but it's solved. Threads don't get closed really, so they tend to start to drift off topic. It's not an issue really, just unwatch if you don't want the notifications anymore.

 

[WYtreasure]

I think that today human as reached a point of no return in destroying the planet (in human history) and it's a good time to start going smart and not overgrown way, to think "optimization". Let's be simple and realistic, reuse what can be reused and share with others that got far less and needs it, let's come back to simple human pleasures ... building a house in the woods with near nothing, experience a cold hard work day then come back in a nicely heated small house... those things, let's alternate pleasure and more difficult situations.... being in a comfort zone for too long, is really bad for us.

Damn well put

My post may seem off topic to some, I don't think it is.

 

[gelmjw]

Thanks for the new 24V video and 24V link :

$642 24V Beginner Friendly DIY Solar System: Perfect for #vanlife

Large Van/RV or small Cabin 24v System