What price is fair for used cells?

[Sverige]

A guy near me is selling 16 x Lishen 272Ah cells for around $83 each. These Lishens normally capacity test at around 280Ah, so comparable to Eve LF280k, but I think rated for only 3,500 cycles but 1C discharge. Eve is 6,000 cycles at 0.5C discharge I think.

They’ve been in use (so he tells me) since winter 21/22, so just over one year of real use. I’ve seen these cells for $100 each plus shipping direct from China recently, but these “new“ cells are likely exactly the same “made in 2020” Lishen batch which these used cells come from. Certainly when I recently bought 4 Lishen 272S from a “reliable“ seller (Qishou) they arrived with 2020 date codes on the QR sticker.

So it comes down to what’s a fair discount from new price for cells used for 15-18 months? If he bought them in 2021 he certainly paid more than current prices, maybe 25-30% more, so I understand he likely thinks the price he’s offering is great.

The cells have had a JK BMS with max voltage 3.4V/cell on them so should not have ever seen an overcharge and in a 16S config it’s unlikely they’ve been discharged at high currents, so I’m tempted, even though strictly speaking I don’t need more cells. But can you ever have too much battery in offgrid? ?

 

[HarryN]

I would not pay more than 20 - 25% of the price of what you can buy for new. Including taxes and shipping though.

 

[rodrick]

No shipping no vat already balanced as long as they have been treated rite sounds good ( more power Scotty )

 

[Mattb4]

The price you may consider fair is not necessarily the price the Seller thinks is fair. You can offer a lower price but try to avoid arguing the point if turned down. Nothing worse than dealing with a person that thinks they need to educate you on what you should be asking for an item you are attempting to sell.

Since you do not need them (as you mention ) than move along.

 

[HRTKD]

Seems expensive for used cells. But I haven't shopped for new cells lately.

 

[houseofancients]

depends a bit on the cycles they went through..
seller should be able to send a screenshot of that directly from the bms..

1-200 cycles = 70% current cell price
200 - 500 cycles = 60% current cell proce

more is 40% of current cell price..
at least that is what i would do

 

[SamDeleted]

It does seem a little high , I'd move on

 

[Sverige]

depends a bit on the cycles they went through..
seller should be able to send a screenshot of that directly from the bms..

1-200 cycles = 70% current cell price
200 - 500 cycles = 60% current cell proce

more is 40% of current cell price..
at least that is what i would do

I’ve just realised he’s actually put a bms screenshot in the listing. 72 cycles, not much. Can this be faked, or is it reliable?

also, 19592Ah cycle capacity- how do I interpret that? If I divide it by 16 it’s 1225, so it can’t be the total pack capacity of a 16S pack ?

I don’t know the JK BMS at all. Is that the one which is preferred these days or is it JBD which is thought to be better?

 

[rodrick]

A 16s battery with 272 cells will be about 14kw I don’t think the bms is correct on Ah but 72 cycles isn’t much if it’s the original bms used on the battery

 

[SeaGal]

My take on it, for what it's worth, is buying used cells is a gamble - you are totally relying on the seller's honesty and the price will have to reflect the gamble element of it.

My first question if meeting face-to-face would be 'why are they for sale' and gauge how they answer you? As you say, no one is likely to have too many cells, and it is unlikely (s)he thought "I'm giving up on solar as electricity is so cheap these days" .

Regarding cycle count... I'd assume that the value could be reset by some means or another - people have been doing that with car odometers for years.

Other considerations are...
a) there's nothing to prevent a user swapping to a replacement BMS during the life of the cells.
b) who knows whether the seller connected up the cells to do a top balance initially and got it wrong and charged them to 4V each?
c) who knows whether the seller didn't think (s)he needed a BMS initially, and charged them up at -10 degrees C, then half-way through winter (about 72 cycles ago) decided to buy a BMS... Then thought, I'm not going to risk these cells next winter, so will sell them on?
d) you say "JK BMS with max voltage 3.4V/cell on them", but the screen-shot shows otherwise.

I know I'm cynical and there's a 99% chance they're just fine and a genuine reason for sale.... but it's a gamble IMHO. ??

 

[Sverige]

My take on it, for what it's worth, is buying used cells is a gamble - you are totally relying on the seller's honesty and the price will have to reflect the gamble element of it.

My first question if meeting face-to-face would be 'why are they for sale' and gauge how they answer you? As you say, no one is likely to have too many cells, and it is unlikely (s)he thought "I'm giving up on solar as electricity is so cheap these days" .

Regarding cycle count... I'd assume that the value could be reset by some means or another - people have been doing that with car odometers for years.

Other considerations are...
a) there's nothing to prevent a user swapping to a replacement BMS during the life of the cells.
b) who knows whether the seller connected up the cells to do a top balance initially and got it wrong and charged them to 4V each?
c) who knows whether the seller didn't think (s)he needed a BMS initially, and charged them up at -10 degrees C, then half-way through winter (about 72 cycles ago) decided to buy a BMS... Then thought, I'm not going to risk these cells next winter, so will sell them on?
d) you say "JK BMS with max voltage 3.4V/cell on them", but the screen-shot shows otherwise.

I know I'm cynical and there's a 99% chance they're just fine and a genuine reason for sale.... but it's a gamble IMHO. ??

You make good points of course, some of which I’d thought about, but your mention of low temp charging has made me ponder. I guess I’d need to see where he has them installed and consider whether it might be below freezing in winter.

His excuse for selling was that he’s building himself a new battery with a skoda enyaq pack, which gave me some reassurance as it seems legit as a reason as it would be much higher capacity than he currently has, and if he’s someone to take on that kind of project he likely knows enough to have not abused these Lishen cells.

point (d) he said in the listing he’d been running them with a 3.4V max but lifted the limit to check how the balance was, then took the shot to illustrate.

 

[SeaGal]

His excuse for selling was that he’s building himself a new battery with a skoda enyaq pack, which gave me some reassurance as it seems legit as a reason as it would be much higher capacity than he currently has, and if he’s someone to take on that kind of project he likely knows enough to have not abused these Lishen cells.

Sounds quite genuine then... not sure someone would make that up. As for charging at low temp, a BMS should prevent that if one was attached, obviously.

If he's quite near and willing for you to come and see them, could be worth a punt?

 

[Sky-HHI]

The screenshot show the cell wire resistance for each cell, the measurments seem all over the place. My jk bms shows my cells wire resisrance very close to each other. I am not sure if this matters, just an observation. Do others with a jk bms have cell wire resistance measurment close to each other?

 

[iamrich]

also, 19592Ah cycle capacity- how do I interpret that? If I divide it by 16 it’s 1225, so it can’t be the total pack capacity of a 16S pack ?

cycle capacity is cycle count times capacity. A pretty useless measurement? 272ah x 72 = 19584ah

 

[Sverige]

cycle capacity is cycle count times capacity. A pretty useless measurement? 272ah x 72 = 19584ah

Ok thanks for clarifying. I agree it’s not much use, but good to know what it means.

 

[HRTKD]

I would be surprised if the cycle count is more than 20 on my JBD BMS that has been in place for almost three years. I have to take the state of charge down fairly low for the BMS to increment the cycle count.

 

[Sverige]

Sounds quite genuine then... not sure someone would make that up. As for charging at low temp, a BMS should prevent that if one was attached, obviously.

If he's quite near and willing for you to come and see them, could be worth a punt?

Yeah I’m thinking I might go and have a face to face chat. My hesitation is more to do with whether i actually need more cells than worries that the guy might not be genuine or the cells might be damaged in some way.

But as I’m sitting here in wall to wall sunshine I would think that way. I might feel differently in autumn when it’s only sunny once a week!

 

[Sverige]

The screenshot show the cell wire resistance for each cell, the measurments seem all over the place. My jk bms shows my cells wire resisrance very close to each other. I am not sure if this matters, just an observation. Do others with a jk bms have cell wire resistance measurment close to each other?

Thanks for the info. Maybe he has bad crimps on his monitoring wires, or he's extended them too long. I’ll check that out if I go there to look at them

 

[Sverige]

I would be surprised if the cycle count is more than 20 on my JBD BMS that has been in place for almost three years. I have to take the state of charge down fairly low for the BMS to increment the cycle count.

Ok, that’s useful to know. So it’s not a very useful indicator of real cell aging cycles then, which can comprise part cycles too.

 

[houseofancients]

Yeah I’m thinking I might go and have a face to face chat. My hesitation is more to do with whether i actually need more cells than worries that the guy might not be genuine or the cells might be damaged in some way.

But as I’m sitting here in wall to wall sunshine I would think that way. I might feel differently in autumn when it’s only sunny once a week!

there is no such thing as to many cells