Where to get Grade "B" cells? How much cheaper are they?

[Ample]

I hope I'm not wearing out my welcome. I'm a new member and already this is my 4th started thread!

I'm planning to self-build a LiFePO4 battery to supplement the name-brand 100Ah one I have now.

Due to costs, I'm going to try to do it as inexpensively as I can. I'm ok with certain "deficiencies", if I can call them that, because of how I'm using them.

For example, the number of cycles. My system is in a vehicle; a campervan. I'd be hard-pressed to cycle my batteries more than 100 times a year, simply because I won't camp that frequently. A battery capable of "only" 1500 cycles would theoretically last me the better part of...20 years.

Further, I don't overly care about getting the utmost capacity. If I build a 100Ah battery and it's only capable of 90-95, I'm fine.

Other deficiencies I don't care about: cosmetics, internal resistance, and other things as mentioned in this video:

So I've looked around a bit for the mythical Grade "B" cells. But I haven't been able to find any. Where are they hiding? Does anyone have a link?

And because I haven't found any, I don't know how much cheaper they are compared to the Grade "A" ones. If there is only a small difference, I would choose the Grade "A" cells. For those who know, how much cheaper are Grade "B" cells?

On a humourous note: I think the faceless narrator of the above video is none other than the young lady who makes interesting Chinese cooking videos like this one:

Probably not, but she sounds like her!

By the way, if there are other reasons not to buy Grade "B" cells--considering my light usage--let me know. I am somewhat concerned about rumours that there is no warranty. But I'm thinking that LiFePO4 cells are not complicated things. No moving parts; no intricate pieces. Not much to go wrong, right? (Genuinely curious.)

 

[Steve_S]

Good Question. I do not recall seeing an advertisement for "Grade-B" cells by anyone. Used Cells yes but Grade-B nope. Given that due to overproduction and Covid slowdowns and subsequently warehouses stuffed full of cells there are a lot of great deals to be had right now, only bugger is shipping which slowed down considerably.

We can buy 280AH Grade-A EVE cells for $84 each + S&H and lower AH cells for even less.
Example from XUBA https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Hot-Rechargeable-3-2V-280Ah-LiFePO4_62401469185.html

• 4 PiecesUS $339.16
• Ship to United States by Express Seller's: US$252.40
• Lead Time 15 days
• Shipping time 18-25 days
• Total US$591.56

We have several Known Good Vendors that people are buying from and writing up their experiences on this forum. We also have Craig here who carries 280AH cells in the USA, I believe it's $700 for a set of 4 I believe, you'll have to search for that thread, pretty active.

Hope it helps, Good Luck.
Steve

 

[Ample]

Good Question. I do not recall seeing an advertisement for "Grade-B" cells by anyone. Used Cells yes but Grade-B nope. Given that due to overproduction and Covid slowdowns and subsequently warehouses stuffed full of cells there are a lot of great deals to be had right now, only bugger is shipping which slowed down considerably.

We can buy 280AH Grade-A EVE cells for $84 each + S&H and lower AH cells for even less.
Example from XUBA https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Hot-Rechargeable-3-2V-280Ah-LiFePO4_62401469185.html

• 4 PiecesUS $339.16
• Ship to United States by Express Seller's: US$252.40
• Lead Time 15 days
• Shipping time 18-25 days
• Total US$591.56

We have several Known Good Vendors that people are buying from and writing up their experiences on this forum. We also have Craig here who carries 280AH cells in the USA, I believe it's $700 for a set of 4 I believe, you'll have to search for that thread, pretty active.

Hope it helps, Good Luck.
Steve

Thank you, Steve! I'm a fellow Canadian and I see a number of us here getting hands-on with DIY batteries. It seems that we pay even more dearly than our American friends for shipping. I'm not in any rush and so the shipping slowdown won't affect me. But the shipping costs are jaw-dropping.

I'm encouraged by hearing you say that there are warehouses stuffed full of cells. Sadly your link shows that the prices for those 280AH batteries are much higher now. $116, USD (I presume). Unless I'm reading that page wrong.

Price aside, that'd be a battery with a humongous capacity.

 

[Steve_S]

Ahhh remember the Currency Exchange thing makes it look like more and of course with a floating $ value it doesn't help squat.

Capture taken just now. IN US Dollars (shipping destination not specified)

 

[ghostwriter66]

Totally agree with @Steve_S ... GRADE-B is now being used in commercial/residential units where the battery is NOT exposed or able to be seen very well due to the GLUT of LiiFePO4 batteries sitting in warehouses right now ..... What makes me a little worried about buying used batteries is you never know how they were used -- like a rental car -- some are used gently -- and some are used by people like me out in the Texas desert going 80 mph down roads meant for 15 ... i would though be interested in you posting what your cost savings are with wanting to go with used ... I would just be afraid of getting some mismatched cell that is going to bring everything down

 

[Rugged_B]

B-Grade does not mean its a used cell. I have been building batteries in China for 5 years now. All batteries produced in the factory are graded when new based on capacity, internal resistance etc.

 

[Rugged_B]

Oh I should add that the "A" grade tend to go to the big customers or perhaps get sent out as test samples.

 

[ghostwriter66]

B-Grade does not mean its a used cell. I have been building batteries in China for 5 years now. All batteries produced in the factory are graded when new based on capacity, internal resistance etc.

I guess i should have been more specific .. when I said they were used I meant how they got in the GRADE-B condition .. sometimes its just cosmetics .. sometimes something went a little of in manufacturing -- its not just cosmetics that makes it a GRADE-B so for me its not worth the risk unless the price is exceptional ...

 

[Forbisher]

B-Grade does not mean its a used cell. I have been building batteries in China for 5 years now. All batteries produced in the factory are graded when new based on capacity, internal resistance etc.

Interesting that you are building batteries in China.
What is your take on the LFP cells that people have been buying from China like the Xuba cells?
Would love to hear more from you on the battery business.
Does your factory have good deals on LFP cells? thanks

 

[Ampster]

Great video. I can't wait to get going with my resistance tester that arrived yesterday. Just needs a 9v battery.

 

[Ample]

Ahhh remember the Currency Exchange thing makes it look like more and of course with a floating $ value it doesn't help squat.

Capture taken just now. IN US Dollars (shipping destination not specified)
View attachment 16787

Oh I SEE! Alibaba must have figured that, coming from a Canadian IP address, I wanted the price in CAD. The page didn't explicitly say CAD unlike your page where it says US$. And further, because I didn't login (I don't have a login), it set shipping address to US and so I figured I was being quoted in USD.

Doing a rough exchange rate calculation, it seems that $84 USD is about $117 CAD. That makes me feel better. I thought you were getting preferential treatment!



Interestingly, Firefox, for some reason, shows the USD price despite the link used being the same. Maybe Firefox blocked my location.

 

[Ample]

Oh I should add that the "A" grade tend to go to the big customers or perhaps get sent out as test samples.

You triggered in me a knowing chuckle! Emphasis mine.

 

[Ample]

Interesting that you are building batteries in China.
What is your take on the LFP cells that people have been buying from China like the Xuba cells?
Would love to hear more from you on the battery business.
Does your factory have good deals on LFP cells? thanks

I am interested in the answers too if @Rugged_B can comment without compromising his position.

I'd like to add the question: how prevalent are fake cells (if prevalent at all)?

For example, I will never buy SD memory cards from anyone except authorized dealers (must be "shipped from" AND "sold by" the authorized dealer, not just "shipped from").

 

[gnubie]

Interestingly, Firefox, for some reason, shows the USD price despite the link used being the same. Maybe Firefox blocked my location.

alibaba's location detection is broken, and has been for a long time. It should be able to get a country of origin using IPv4 and IPv6 address allocations alone (most of the IP databases are reasonably accurate), but even when it explicitly shows that it knows which country I am in [via this header in the http response, Network_Info: AU_BRISBANE_4764] it still sets the country to USA by default

 

[Rugged_B]

I am interested in the answers too if @Rugged_B can comment without compromising his position.

I'd like to add the question: how prevalent are fake cells (if prevalent at all)?

For example, I will never buy SD memory cards from anyone except authorized dealers (must be "shipped from" AND "sold by" the authorized dealer, not just "shipped from").

I have my own company but work with battery manufacturers here, I've been mostly working with high C rate batteries and usually have used LiPo packs. As for LiFePO4 cells I have worked with them in the past, but for the products we made energy density was important so we used Cobalt based. Recently I have been exploring more into the energy storage market (hence why I joined the forum). I have visited a few cell manufacturers nearby in the past few weeks and will probably visit plenty more in the coming month so if anyone has questions or would like to have me document some of the visits I'm more than willing to share.

As for buying from Alibaba, its hit and miss. Most sellers are just reselling, and you have no idea as they will lie and tell you they are the manufacturer, that's why I always visit the factories I deal with and test our shipments to make sure we are getting what we order before they go into a product.

 

[Rugged_B]

I guess i should have been more specific .. when I said they were used I meant how they got in the GRADE-B condition .. sometimes its just cosmetics .. sometimes something went a little of in manufacturing -- its not just cosmetics that makes it a GRADE-B so for me its not worth the risk unless the price is exceptional ...

Manufacturing always has slight tolerances, and just as 1 example humidity can wreak havoc on lithium cell production, as large number of the factories in Guangdong humidity can cause real issues as not all the factories are INTEL style clean rooms.

Cosmetically all the factories I have worked with would discard any packs/cells that were not in good cosmetic shape, I'm sure some don't though.

 

[Rugged_B]

Interesting that you are building batteries in China.
What is your take on the LFP cells that people have been buying from China like the Xuba cells?
Would love to hear more from you on the battery business.
Does your factory have good deals on LFP cells? thanks

Sorry didn't reply directly, but touched on your questions above. LFP cells can be great here, just need to make sure you are dealing with a good manufacturer and not a trading company in most cases. I would recommend visiting the factory to make sure though.

 

[PeterBC]

Perhaps flogging a dead horse here trying to revive this thread, but I'm still interested in what the actual differences are between Grade A and B cells. With Grade A being quoted at up to 3 x the price of new Grade B .. what parameters are they better at ?

Internal Resistance ? Absolute or consistency within a batch ?
Charge Rate ?
Capacity ? Is it consistency within a batch ? How close would Grade A vrs Grade B be ?
Life Span ? Do some have significant diff design life a same cycle parameters ? Or is it just a random thing ?
Self Discharge Rate ?
Failure Rate ? What are failure rates like in the field ?
Other ?