Whole home off-grid build

[jeeptj12]

I'm looking to build an off-grid system to power our house and farm. My power company does not allow solar to be connected to the grid so we have no choice but to go completely off-grid. I currently have a sub panel with generator hook up in our barn just off the house. It back feeds my main panel in the house. I was going to run the solar the same way I do the gas generator and manually turn off my main grid breaker and back feed the home panel from my barn sub panel.

My average electric usage is 50kwh/day.

I was looking at the system from signature solar in the link below. I was thinking about running two of these systems. The cost seems to be the best bang for the buck. However, it appears the AC amp output of two 6000xp inverters is not enough to run the whole house. The only inverter I can find that would possibly handle the loads of a whole house is the Growatt 12000T. It looks like I would need two. However, reviews seem to be mixed on their reliability.

Complete Off-Grid Solar Kit EG4 6000XP | 8000W PV Input | 6000W Output | 48V 280Ah | 14.3kWh | WallMount Indoor Battery + Up To 7200W PV Solar

Complete Off-Grid Solar Kit: EG4 6000XP, 8000W PV Input, 6000W Output, 48V 280Ah, 14.3kWh Wall-Mount Battery, and Up to 7200W PV Solar Power.

signaturesolar.com

Any thoughts?

 

[Steve_S]

240VAC Split Phase @ 100A = 24,000W @ Inverter without correction for losses & inefficiencies.
50kWh a day is a LOT of juice ! Assuming you want 3 days Autonomy (no solar/gen input - battery only) that is 150kWh of battery.
1 48V/100AH Battery has 5,120WH or 5.1kWh (150kWh ÷ 5kWh = 30 pcs)
The Solar Array(s) required to generate 50kWh per day will be HUGE _AND_ remember you have to account for the worst generation periods such as December where you "might" get 6 hours of so-so Sunshine.

RULE 1) It is FAR CHEAPER to Conserve than it is to Generate & Store.
Get rid of Grandma's Fridge that you inherited that only cools your beer !
Look at your ENERGY PIGS ! Fridge/Freezer, AC System, Cookstove , heating etc...
Do a full & proper assessment of your power usage BEFORE doing anything more... Work out what your "Critical/Essentials" are to live (summer or winter) then work out wants & would likes

 

[Mattb4]

I'm looking to build an off-grid system to power our house and farm. My power company does not allow solar to be connected to the grid so we have no choice but to go completely off-grid. I currently have a sub panel with generator hook up in our barn just off the house. It back feeds my main panel in the house. I was going to run the solar the same way I do the gas generator and manually turn off my main grid breaker and back feed the home panel from my barn sub panel.

My average electric usage is 50kwh/day.

I was looking at the system from signature solar in the link below. I was thinking about running two of these systems. The cost seems to be the best bang for the buck. However, it appears the AC amp output of two 6000xp inverters is not enough to run the whole house. The only inverter I can find that would possibly handle the loads of a whole house is the Growatt 12000T. It looks like I would need two. However, reviews seem to be mixed on their reliability.

Complete Off-Grid Solar Kit EG4 6000XP | 8000W PV Input | 6000W Output | 48V 280Ah | 14.3kWh | WallMount Indoor Battery + Up To 7200W PV Solar

Complete Off-Grid Solar Kit: EG4 6000XP, 8000W PV Input, 6000W Output, 48V 280Ah, 14.3kWh Wall-Mount Battery, and Up to 7200W PV Solar Power.

signaturesolar.com

Any thoughts?

Going completely Off grid may be a bit tough to accomplish with this much load required. Have you considered an approach where you take some loads off grid and leave grid as backup?

 

[Sergio95050]

Or use diesel generator during "so-so" days.

 

[jeeptj12]

Mattb: I did but it seems like a lot more work, and a lot more money to do so. It was also more invasive with putting all the equipment in a very small pantry.

Sergio: The so-so days, I will flip back from the grid.

 

[DIYrich]

I'm looking to build an off-grid system to power our house and farm. My power company does not allow solar to be connected to the grid so we have no choice but to go completely off-grid.

If the inverter can't export to the grid, then the utility shouldn't have a say, like the 6000xp.

In any case, for backup power, get battery chargers that you power from the grid. That would be plan b. Plan c is generator. Chargerverter takes grid power, and can also clean up generator power.

I was looking at the system from signature solar in the link below. I was thinking about running two of these systems. The cost seems to be the best bang for the buck. However, it appears the AC amp output of two 6000xp inverters is not enough to run the whole house.

You can parallel up to 16 6000xp.

 

[NC_hydro]

Go with a larger battery like a 300Ah Trophy, and look at the new The One AIO from Midnite Solar. If you're off grid you don't want to rely on a beta box (Eg4) unless you absolutely can't afford anything else. If you're up for it you could do DIY LFP and cut your cost on the most expensive item in the build. If you can afford it, look at Midnite or Victron inverters or the Yellow ones

 

[SilverbackMP]

I find it hard to believe a power company would have an issue with non exporting inverters that just use the grid as source. Maybe check on this?

 

[SilverbackMP]

As far as equipment? Lowest tier I would consider would be EG4 with Victron, Schneider, or SMA being much preferred. I will likely go Victron with a second system once I max the 100A available from my SMA system. Likely with SMA AC coupled inverters (which I have a plethora) added to the Victron mix (no solar charge converters used).

The “more” off grid one is, the more I think quality matters. There’s no calling the power company if the lights go out.

 

[Madcodger]

As others have noted, when people say their power company "won't allow solar" they usually have a misunderstanding. In most cases, you can PASS THROUGH grid power and use an inverter that doesn't export power back to the grid. Having a good understanding of the differences in inverters is important when speaking to the power company.

As for the inverter and other equipment to use, I disagree with some of the comments above, and that represents a real "conversion" for me. I just made the decision to go with an EG4 system in a new, totally off grid build (no utility connection), even though I already own a Victron system at my current home (generally considered top of the line), have never had a moment of trouble from it, have been thrilled with its performance, and preached it was totally worth it in the past (much like what you're reading here), And yes, I can afford to install Victron in my new place, but am actively electing not to do it. So, why did I buy something else, this time? Perceived value for money.

Some new AIO units (EG4 being a great example) are offering so much for such a reasonable price, that I'm willing to gamble on longevity / reliability (the only thing we don't know about them, at this point). I can purchase three 6000XP units - more than I need - for much less than I can purchase a single Victron inverter and SCC, plus related extra (necessary) equipment. If one unit goes kaput, I'm still in good shape while it's being repaired. If two go kaput at the same time, I'm limping but still functioning. I'd have to have all three fail simultaneously to have the same result as having just one Victron component fail. The odds just don't favor that happening, as I see it.

So, I went in a very different direction on brands, compared to some of the advice you're receiving. Will I regret it? I hope not, but maybe. Time is the only way we're going to know. Watch for reports from this test subject, but it may be years before we get a verdict. As I see it, this is kinda the same situation as the introduction of Japanese vehicles, years ago. People kept saying they were junk, and maybe some were, but they generally proved to be a great value. Ya look at your cards and you place your bet... Time will tell.

 

[Steve_S]

Points of consideration:
- A - Certifications as required by Insurance Co's, Electrical code inspections etc...
1) Age of company and how long it has been doing business.
2) Support for the hardware - warranties & repair history - upgrades (firmware)
3) Software support & integration with related goodies such as AIO - Inverter/Charger - Solar Controllers etc
4) Will equipment be compatible to other products ! IE replacing or Adding a new SCC or Other to be compatible with existing goodies.
5) Ability to interact with 3rd Party devices/products.

ALL of the above are well covered by VICTRON and VERY FEW others and they have been at it since 1975.

 

[SilverbackMP]

Points of consideration:
- A - Certifications as required by Insurance Co's, Electrical code inspections etc...
1) Age of company and how long it has been doing business.
2) Support for the hardware - warranties & repair history - upgrades (firmware)
3) Software support & integration with related goodies such as AIO - Inverter/Charger - Solar Controllers etc
4) Will equipment be compatible to other products ! IE replacing or Adding a new SCC or Other to be compatible with existing goodies.
5) Ability to interact with 3rd Party devices/products.

ALL of the above are well covered by VICTRON and VERY FEW others and they have been at it since 1975.

#4 is huge. These lower budget all-in-ones seem to change models about as often as I change underwear with little in the way of compatibility between models.

Good luck getting an inverter repaired or replaced to go with others you may have in your stack when they were offered three or four product cycles earlier.

“Technology advances so fast….”

Bullshit; these aren’t gaming computers. Personally I don’t want to be jacking with my power delivery every year or three.

I don’t want a “minimally viable product” being my primary power. EG4 miiiiiight have sorted some of these issues, but let’s see if they can keep the same product on the shelf for a year or three.

MidNite might be another to keep an eye on.

 

[ksmithaz1]

50KWH/day is nothing. I roll 120 in July on a regular basis. I jammed just under 100 last week.

Get a nice transfer switch 100A or better, Solar to the switch primary, Grid to the switch secondary, common to your load panel, you are now "off grid". Hook the genny to the AIO for when times are bad. Can point to switch when inspecting.

You need a handle on your peak demand to determine how much inverter output you need. What is your current service at your house (100A?) IMNSHO, you will want enough inverter to handle your peak demand whatever it is. If you can drop a recording ammeter of some description on your primary input for a week or so and get a handle on your peak demand.
You can parallel various inverters to scale your amperage output up to whatever your demand needs. Example: Demand peaks at ~60A/240V? You would need something like 3xEG4 6000XP = 240v@75A.

This handles your electrical demand, now you need to produce and store some actual electricity. You need to size out your panels & batteries to fit your climate profile and tolerance for running the generator/switching to the grid. Build this to scale up as you purchase more equipment. I'd start with at least 8000W of panels, and 30KWH of batteries. You can add panels or battery after you start getting a baseline on how well that level keeps you off grid, and your monetary pain threshold. I'm guessing the minimal I've described will be pretty close to handling everything under reasonably optimal sun conditions. The closer you want to be to 100% solar the more expensive it gets for each percent. I would probably want to run for a year or two with the grid as my primary backup to get a feel of how often/much I might need to run my genny when the solar goes south.

Good Luck,

 

[ksmithaz1]

If I was building a new house, on dirt, I would put in hyper-efficient appliances and AC units and ... Given a 50KWH/day load, I see very little ROI on replacing any, I'd just build out for demand. Once you start running, if you find that you have some appliance, an older HVAC or something that needs replacement that will tip you over some threshold, then go for it.

 

[schmenkee]

240VAC Split Phase @ 100A = 24,000W @ Inverter without correction for losses & inefficiencies.
50kWh a day is a LOT of juice ! Assuming you want 3 days Autonomy (no solar/gen input - battery only) that is 150kWh of battery.
1 48V/100AH Battery has 5,120WH or 5.1kWh (150kWh ÷ 5kWh = 30 pcs)
The Solar Array(s) required to generate 50kWh per day will be HUGE _AND_ remember you have to account for the worst generation periods such as December where you "might" get 6 hours of so-so Sunshine.

RULE 1) It is FAR CHEAPER to Conserve than it is to Generate & Store.
Get rid of Grandma's Fridge that you inherited that only cools your beer !
Look at your ENERGY PIGS ! Fridge/Freezer, AC System, Cookstove , heating etc...
Do a full & proper assessment of your power usage BEFORE doing anything more... Work out what your "Critical/Essentials" are to live (summer or winter) then work out wants & would likes

With new gaskets and wiring, those Grandma's Fridges will outlive all of us here. Seriously though. If they are a pre-1960s model without auto defrost, they have the same energy usage as modern plastic refrigerators. Cheaper than getting new one that breaks in 7 years.

 

[jeeptj12]

50KWH/day is nothing. I roll 120 in July on a regular basis. I jammed just under 100 last week.

Get a nice transfer switch 100A or better, Solar to the switch primary, Grid to the switch secondary, common to your load panel, you are now "off grid". Hook the genny to the AIO for when times are bad. Can point to switch when inspecting.

You need a handle on your peak demand to determine how much inverter output you need. What is your current service at your house (100A?) IMNSHO, you will want enough inverter to handle your peak demand whatever it is. If you can drop a recording ammeter of some description on your primary input for a week or so and get a handle on your peak demand.
You can parallel various inverters to scale your amperage output up to whatever your demand needs. Example: Demand peaks at ~60A/240V? You would need something like 3xEG4 6000XP = 240v@75A.

This handles your electrical demand, now you need to produce and store some actual electricity. You need to size out your panels & batteries to fit your climate profile and tolerance for running the generator/switching to the grid. Build this to scale up as you purchase more equipment. I'd start with at least 8000W of panels, and 30KWH of batteries. You can add panels or battery after you start getting a baseline on how well that level keeps you off grid, and your monetary pain threshold. I'm guessing the minimal I've described will be pretty close to handling everything under reasonably optimal sun conditions. The closer you want to be to 100% solar the more expensive it gets for each percent. I would probably want to run for a year or two with the grid as my primary backup to get a feel of how often/much I might need to run my genny when the solar goes south.

Good Luck,

I have 200A service. Signature Solar first stated 4 6000XP's but then came back with the 18kw inverter. I haven't been impressed with the sales team. I can imagine what the support looks like.

I was planning to start with 30kwh and at least 10kw of panels.

 

[jeeptj12]

As others have noted, when people say their power company "won't allow solar" they usually have a misunderstanding. In most cases, you can PASS THROUGH grid power and use an inverter that doesn't export power back to the grid. Having a good understanding of the differences in inverters is important when speaking to the power company.

As for the inverter and other equipment to use, I disagree with some of the comments above, and that represents a real "conversion" for me. I just made the decision to go with an EG4 system in a new, totally off grid build (no utility connection), even though I already own a Victron system at my current home (generally considered top of the line), have never had a moment of trouble from it, have been thrilled with its performance, and preached it was totally worth it in the past (much like what you're reading here), And yes, I can afford to install Victron in my new place, but am actively electing not to do it. So, why did I buy something else, this time? Perceived value for money.

Some new AIO units (EG4 being a great example) are offering so much for such a reasonable price, that I'm willing to gamble on longevity / reliability (the only thing we don't know about them, at this point). I can purchase three 6000XP units - more than I need - for much less than I can purchase a single Victron inverter and SCC, plus related extra (necessary) equipment. If one unit goes kaput, I'm still in good shape while it's being repaired. If two go kaput at the same time, I'm limping but still functioning. I'd have to have all three fail simultaneously to have the same result as having just one Victron component fail. The odds just don't favor that happening, as I see it.

So, I went in a very different direction on brands, compared to some of the advice you're receiving. Will I regret it? I hope not, but maybe. Time is the only way we're going to know. Watch for reports from this test subject, but it may be years before we get a verdict. As I see it, this is kinda the same situation as the introduction of Japanese vehicles, years ago. People kept saying they were junk, and maybe some were, but they generally proved to be a great value. Ya look at your cards and you place your bet... Time will tell.

I understand I can pass through with an inverter. However, my home (where the main breaker panel is) is small and is all shaded. I have to put my panels and house all the hardware in my barn. I already have a generator hookup in a subpanel with a line run from the barn to the house. I felt it was cheaper and easier to do that given the constraints in my home to house the solar equipment.

 

[SenileOldGit]

Points of consideration:
- A - Certifications as required by Insurance Co's, Electrical code inspections etc...
1) Age of company and how long it has been doing business.
2) Support for the hardware - warranties & repair history - upgrades (firmware)
3) Software support & integration with related goodies such as AIO - Inverter/Charger - Solar Controllers etc
4) Will equipment be compatible to other products ! IE replacing or Adding a new SCC or Other to be compatible with existing goodies.
5) Ability to interact with 3rd Party devices/products.

ALL of the above are well covered by VICTRON and VERY FEW others and they have been at it since 1975.

Signs of the usual desparation from a Victron owner...
There are MILLIONS of Voltronic inverters sold every year, why isn't this forum flooded with people saying that theirs isn't working properly?


To the original poster - you just need All In One inverters that don't export, you can parallel up to nine rebranded Voltronic units, they can't export to the grid, so your electricity company shouldn't have any problem with them. So you don't need to go off grid, you can still use mains electricity at the same time as using the inverters.

 

[new off grid]

I'm looking to build an off-grid system to power our house and farm. My power company does not allow solar to be connected to the grid so we have no choice but to go completely off-grid. I currently have a sub panel with generator hook up in our barn just off the house. It back feeds my main panel in the house. I was going to run the solar the same way I do the gas generator and manually turn off my main grid breaker and back feed the home panel from my barn sub panel.

My average electric usage is 50kwh/day.

I was looking at the system from signature solar in the link below. I was thinking about running two of these systems. The cost seems to be the best bang for the buck. However, it appears the AC amp output of two 6000xp inverters is not enough to run the whole house. The only inverter I can find that would possibly handle the loads of a whole house is the Growatt 12000T. It looks like I would need two. However, reviews seem to be mixed on their reliability.

Complete Off-Grid Solar Kit EG4 6000XP | 8000W PV Input | 6000W Output | 48V 280Ah | 14.3kWh | WallMount Indoor Battery + Up To 7200W PV Solar

Complete Off-Grid Solar Kit: EG4 6000XP, 8000W PV Input, 6000W Output, 48V 280Ah, 14.3kWh Wall-Mount Battery, and Up to 7200W PV Solar Power.

signaturesolar.com

Any thoughts?

I'm not an expert, but based on my 5 years off grid and using avg 35kwh/day
this is my suggestion for your needs
. 10-11 k solar panel
. 10-12k split phase inverter
. 25-35kwh batt bank
depends on where you live, that may change

 

[Sergio95050]

depends on where you live, that may change

Let's compare to your location. Where is it ?

 

[Johneb]

Wha

240VAC Split Phase @ 100A = 24,000W @ Inverter without correction for losses & inefficiencies.
50kWh a day is a LOT of juice ! Assuming you want 3 days Autonomy (no solar/gen input - battery only) that is 150kWh of battery.
1 48V/100AH Battery has 5,120WH or 5.1kWh (150kWh ÷ 5kWh = 30 pcs)
The Solar Array(s) required to generate 50kWh per day will be HUGE _AND_ remember you have to account for the worst generation periods such as December where you "might" get 6 hours of so-so Sunshine.

RULE 1) It is FAR CHEAPER to Conserve than it is to Generate & Store.
Get rid of Grandma's Fridge that you inherited that only cools your beer !
Look at your ENERGY PIGS ! Fridge/Freezer, AC System, Cookstove , heating etc...
Do a full & proper assessment of your power usage BEFORE doing anything more... Work out what your "Critical/Essentials" are to live (summer or winter) then work out wants & would likes

What he said! Do this first.

 

[serene_badlands]

I'm looking to build an off-grid system to power our house and farm. My power company does not allow solar to be connected to the grid so we have no choice but to go completely off-grid. I currently have a sub panel with generator hook up in our barn just off the house. It back feeds my main panel in the house. I was going to run the solar the same way I do the gas generator and manually turn off my main grid breaker and back feed the home panel from my barn sub panel.

My average electric usage is 50kwh/day.

I was looking at the system from signature solar in the link below. I was thinking about running two of these systems. The cost seems to be the best bang for the buck. However, it appears the AC amp output of two 6000xp inverters is not enough to run the whole house. The only inverter I can find that would possibly handle the loads of a whole house is the Growatt 12000T. It looks like I would need two. However, reviews seem to be mixed on their reliability.

Complete Off-Grid Solar Kit EG4 6000XP | 8000W PV Input | 6000W Output | 48V 280Ah | 14.3kWh | WallMount Indoor Battery + Up To 7200W PV Solar

Complete Off-Grid Solar Kit: EG4 6000XP, 8000W PV Input, 6000W Output, 48V 280Ah, 14.3kWh Wall-Mount Battery, and Up to 7200W PV Solar Power.

signaturesolar.com

Any thoughts?

Would it be a safe assumption that you have a couple EVs?

A solar array with zero-export can likely offset a fair bit of your consumption without the need for batteries...unless the majority of your draw is from plugging in EVs at night. You just adjust the settings of your inverter, so you don't backed to the grid.

If you do go the off-grid route, keep in mind that the EG4 inverters have a built-in load-shedding feature that can cut power supplied to a subpanel with greedy, non-essential loads (e.g. hot tub) when batteries drain below a certain percentage. This can decrease the size of your battery bank considerably at the cost of luxuries.

Lastly, since you're in Delaware, the batteries will likely have to be housed in an environment that stays above freezing, ideally about 40ºF to function properly in the Winter months. This becomes a bigger limitation the farther North you go...and is a PITA for folks up in Maine for instance.

 

[Luk88]

I'm not an expert, but based on my 5 years off grid and using avg 35kwh/day
this is my suggestion for your needs
. 10-11 k solar panel
. 10-12k split phase inverter
. 25-35kwh batt bank
depends on where you live, that may change

It doesn't seem much...
My use is in the region of 22kWh per day, I have 14kW of solar and 45kWh of battery (soon 60kWh hopefully). And just a week ago my battery was middling around 50% when we got two days in a row of very bad weather. My array was making between 400~700W for most of the day only.

 

[Bluedog225]

I have 200A service. Signature Solar first stated 4 6000XP's but then came back with the 18kw inverter. I haven't been impressed with the sales team. I can imagine what the support looks like.

I was planning to start with 30kwh and at least 10kw of panels.

It would be good to do some more research on vendors. Some are better than others. Some savings are not worth having.

 

[serene_badlands]

It doesn't seem much...
My use is in the region of 22kWh per day, I have 14kW of solar and 45kWh of battery (soon 60kWh hopefully). And just a week ago my battery was middling around 50% when we got two days in a row of very bad weather. My array was making between 400~700W for most of the day only.

Agreed, seems undersized if you're actually trying to go off-grid.