Why does this inverter cost $3,300?

[Burnrate]

I'm talking about the new one on signature solar. It seems like a very nice inverter, hybrid, and has are really long surge profile.

Schneider Conext XW PRO 6.8KW Hybrid Inverter/Charger | 48V 120/240V

Signature Solar provides solar panels, off-grid solar systems, grid-tie, and hybrid systems. Quality solar inverters, bifacial solar panels, complete solar kits, solar batteries. Featuring brands such as EG4 Electronics with their solar battery, LifePower4 and EG4 LLifePower4 and EG4 LL

signaturesolar.com

Still though it is only 6.8 kw and doesn't have a charge controller. What does it have that makes it a better purchase compared to something like this: https://signaturesolar.com/growatt-240v-3kw-grid-tie-inverter/
For $920 you could get two of those with 8400 watts of solar input, it has an mppt, the two will give you 6 kw output. It seems like more stuff in a smaller package for a third of the price. What's the deal?

 

[Rednecktek]

S$c$n$e$i$d$e$r$ are "top tier" and you have to pay for the privilege. Much like A$p$p$l$e$ products that use discontinued tech for new systems and charge through the nose for it.

For the people who think Victron is too "Low Brow"? ?

 

[Supervstech]

Design and reliability I bet.
Looks like a very nice inverter.

 

[littleharbor2]

The Schneider SW 4024 is in the $1,500 range , is 120/240 split phase and charges through mains or generator. It is very competively priced alongside Outback, Magnum and others of the same class.

 

[Lost_One]

"top tier" and you have to pay for the privilege

Between top tier and the less expensive counterparts, does the rule you get what you pay for still apply? With an investment like solar I, expect something to last a decade or more, are we seeing this reliability with the lest expensive counterparts? Schneider seems to be a good product that is not too expensive when compaired to other top tier, which too makes me wonder if you get what you pay for?

 

[Koldsimer]

Reliability- You can expect 15-20 years of service from these inverters. There are lots of 20+ year old Trace systems (Trace was purchased by Schneider but design is essentially the same) still in service. Made by some very creative guys who understood the needs and wants of the off grid crowd. True pioneers and solar/electric gurus.

Surge Rating- just look at the specs. Unmatched surge capabilities.

UL listed- it can be approved for grid tie in almost any situation.

I considered several inverters that were much cheaper but i'm very happy i went with the Schneider xw pro 6848. Been problem free for two years now.

As is usually the case, you get what you pay for.

 

[Rednecktek]

Between top tier and the less expensive counterparts, does the rule you get what you pay for still apply? With an investment like solar I, expect something to last a decade or more, are we seeing this reliability with the lest expensive counterparts? Schneider seems to be a good product that is not too expensive when compaired to other top tier, which too makes me wonder if you get what you pay for?

Much like LFP batteries there's not enough history as we haven't HAD things like Growatt/MPP/Temank's for 10+ years to compare against. The other half of the equation is "How many replacements can I get for the same money?" which means if I paid $600 for my AIO instead of $2500 for $FancyNameBrand and had to replace it once in 10 years, then it's still better "value" AND I can afford it and tacos at the same time.

Sadly, there idea that "You Get What You Pay For" isn't a linear thing and many times you're just paying for the name brand and not any better performance/quality/reliability.

 

[Koldsimer]

Much like LFP batteries there's not enough history as we haven't HAD things like Growatt/MPP/Temank's for 10+ years to compare against. The other half of the equation is "How many replacements can I get for the same money?" which means if I paid $600 for my AIO instead of $2500 for $FancyNameBrand and had to replace it once in 10 years, then it's still better "value" AND I can afford it and tacos at the same time.

Agreed for the most part. Hard to tell how reliable these growatts and others will be. For those of us who live 100% off grid, the piece of mind gained from knowing you have a reliable product that HAS been proven in the field for multiple years, well, that's worth a lot. Food going bad, no ac, generator running on $4 a gallon gas- all things i want to avoid due to an inverter failure.

Sadly, there idea that "You Get What You Pay For" isn't a linear thing and many times you're just paying for the name brand and not any better performance/quality/reliability.

I would definitely say that the xw line of Schneider inverters is a top tier product. They are worth every penny.

You are right though- lots of brands making junk these days and hiding behind a name that used to be quality. Black and Decker for example.

 

[Rednecktek]

You are right though- lots of brands making junk these days and hiding behind a name that used to be quality. Black and Decker for example.

**COUGHCOUGHCRAFTSMANCOUGHCOUGH**

 

[Hedges]

Totally different functions.

The GroWatt is a "Grid Tie" inverter. Takes DC from PV and just shoves a sine wave current into the grid. Nothing else, other than some safety features.

The Schneider is an inverter/charger (without PV input, I wouldn't call it a "hybrid"), charges batteries from grid and makes AC to power loads, including starting surge. It is 120/240V split-phase.

A grid-tie inverter is a high voltage inverter, with PV voltage similar to grid, so transistors only have to carry 13.6A. Weight about 15 lbs, this one is transformerless.

Battery inverter operates at nominally 48V, makes 240Vrms, carries 180A. That's a lot more transistors. Because it is a low-frequency implementation it contains a heavy transformer. 122 lbs.

 

[Hedges]

From a single company, SMA, 6kW low frequency transformer type battery inverter Sunny Island is about $5700 msrp and 6kW transformerless grid tie inverter is about $2200.
Those two would be apples to apples comparison with the Schneider and the GroWatt fuctionality.

 

[OffGridInTheCity]

Much like LFP batteries there's not enough history as we haven't HAD things like Growatt/MPP/Temank's for 10+ years to compare against. The other half of the equation is "How many replacements can I get for the same money?" which means if I paid $600 for my AIO instead of $2500 for $FancyNameBrand and had to replace it once in 10 years, then it's still better "value" AND I can afford it and tacos at the same time.

Sadly, there idea that "You Get What You Pay For" isn't a linear thing and many times you're just paying for the name brand and not any better performance/quality/reliability.

Agree with all the comments but this one resonated with me the most.

To me there is a layer of 'I trust the experts / metal-box-all-set / interconnects-to-other-all-set' vs 'I'm DIY and will dig into the details'.

UL (home insurance more likely to cover fire) + DIY + Cheaper were my drivers. For example, I built my own 'control box', cut out slots for my own series of circuit breakers, used example wiring diagrams to figure out my own wiring. AIMS ETL 12,000w models filled the bill for me and the inverters have been 100% solid... BUT I lament the 15% loss of efficiency!. Efficiency would be one of my top issues today regardless of 'name'.

 

[Koldsimer]

Agree with all the comments but this one resonated with me the most.

To me there is a layer of 'I trust the experts / metal-box-all-set / interconnects-to-other-all-set' vs 'I'm DIY and will dig into the details'.

UL (home insurance more likely to cover fire) + DIY + Cheaper were my drivers. For example, I built my own 'control box', cut out slots for my own series of circuit breakers, used example wiring diagrams to figure out my own wiring. AIMS ETL 12,000w models filled the bill for me and the inverters have been 100% solid... BUT I lament the 15% loss of efficiency!. Efficiency would be one of my top issues today regardless of 'name'.

I believe the Schneider is 96% efficient. Another big deal i forgot to mention....

 

[MichaelK]

I have the previous model, the XW+6848. I bought it specifically for powering my 240VAC well pump. It has done that flawlessly for 5 years now. It handles the 9100W starting surge effortlessly.

 

[Warpspeed]

Reliability- You can expect 15-20 years of service from these inverters. There are lots of 20+ year old Trace systems (Trace was purchased by Schneider but design is essentially the same) still in service. Made by some very creative guys who understood the needs and wants of the off grid crowd. True pioneers and solar/electric gurus.

Surge Rating- just look at the specs. Unmatched surge capabilities.

UL listed- it can be approved for grid tie in almost any situation.

I considered several inverters that were much cheaper but i'm very happy i went with the Schneider xw pro 6848. Been problem free for two years now.

As is usually the case, you get what you pay for.

The original Trace design is really the ultimate approach for reliability and surge capability, but that comes at a very high manufacturing cost.
The Trace inverters work on a fundamentally different principle to other inverters on the market.

The problem is the large amount of copper and steel required to wind the multiple output transformers required for this design of inverter.
Customers are just not prepared to pay for that, which is why Trace went broke.
Its just not a commercially viable way to build an inverter. Technically very good, but a financial sink hole for any manufacturer.

I designed and built my own inverter using the exact same principle of combining the outputs of four low frequency square wave transformer inverters, to generate a very low distortion pure sine wave. Trace used three inverters to do this, my design uses four.
The design is free and open source on the internet if you search, and you could build your own inverter. All the information is available to do it. And I am prepared to help anyone that needs help designing and winding their own transformers.
I call it the "Warpverter".
There are now at least eighteen of these that have been successfully home built around the world, and all are in the 5Kw to 8Kw class, although there is really no practical upper power limit to what could be built. I can absolutely guarantee all of these will still be running decades from now, they are very simple and extremely robust.

If you strip and rewind your own transformers out of recycled junk transformers, the overall cost can be kept quite low, but its a lot of tedious work fabricating the transformers. Manufacturers cannot obviously use old recycled junk, but you can. If you get the required transformers professionally wound, the cost will really shock you. And that is why these inverters make an excellent home project, but are just not commercially cost competitive.

 

[BentleyJ]

I have the previous model, the XW+6848. I bought it specifically for powering my 240VAC well pump. It has done that flawlessly for 5 years now. It handles the 9100W starting surge effortlessly.

Ya, the XW+ is a beast, massive transformer runs a 4 ton A/C effortlessly.

 

[Warpspeed]

All of these Trace type inverters are beasts, and perfect for starting up really big nasty motors.

 

[littleharbor2]

Customers are just not prepared to pay for that, which is why Trace went broke.
Its just not a commercially viable way to build an inverter. Technically very good, but a financial sink hole for any manufacturer.

I have never heard this before. Did they not sell the company to Xantrex and move on to create Outback and Magnum, and ultimately Midnite Solar?

 

[12VoltInstalls]

here idea that "You Get What You Pay For" isn't a linear thing and many times you're just paying for the name brand and not any better performance/quality/reliability.

The Schneider and other glam brands… you DO get what you pay for in many aspects, particularly performance.
Quality and reliability predictions are a different matter. A Hyundai basic sedan is both reliable and quality, but performance and…shall we say “esthetics” aren’t at the level of a Lexus or Mercedes.
Both will drive you to your job at the industrial park.

With an investment like solar I, expect something to last a decade or more, are we seeing this reliability with the lest expensive counterparts

I think we are. The manufacturer performance over time for say, MPPSolar, has a track record and customer fan base as a result.
Granted I’ve only got 4 year+ window but I’ve not had a single Epever, Giandel, or the current fairly new MPPSolar actually fail. Connectors failed, a cable failed, water ingress ruined a couple 100W panels, but no electronics have died and those aren’t top-tier brandages. I did a lot of research and considering the high volume sold in the marketplace those brands have not the complaint volume of other products in the low-priced segment.

For those of us who live 100% off grid, the piece of mind gained from knowing you have a reliable product that HAS been proven in the field for multiple years, well, that's worth a lot. Food going bad, no ac, generator running on $4 a gallon gas- all things i want to avoid due to an inverter failure

I don’t have a generator and I haven’t been without power since day one. And I have peace of mind. I also have backups for charging, inverter, MC4s, and even a couple extra panels. For $2500 I could actually replace everything I have and actually upgrade. Replacing a top-tier whatsiegadget versus replacing a Giandel whatsiegadget is a remarkable difference in cost never mind holding nib backups for Justin- just in case.

It’s not that:

From a single company, SMA, 6kW low frequency transformer type battery inverter Sunny Island is about $5700 msrp and 6kW transformerless grid tie inverter is about $2200.
Those two would be apples to apples comparison with the Schneider and the GroWatt fuctionality.

…are ripoffs. They’re not.
But for some of us the calculated risk of lower-shelf whisky still gives us the obligatory hangover.

It’s like my tool box: not a snap-on in it, and the box is harbor freight, while there’s a lot of SK wrenches, old Proto, Williams, Klein stuff, Mitutoyo and Starret or two, as well as some ‘Pittsburgh,’ SK, and my old original craftsman sockets.
My paycheck from using them was identical to that which would have been received had I given away a couple years’ grocery budget for Matco or snapon.

Wise purchasing where price is not the driving factor yields affordable, usable products. Solar is no different.

 

[Warpspeed]

I have never heard this before. Did they not sell the company to Xantrex and move on to create Outback and Magnum, and ultimately Midnite Solar?

I can only pass on gossip that has probably gone through and been distorted by about ten other people. But I hear Trace had financial problems which were solved when Xantrex took over all the rights to the original Trace design. May be true, may not be true. But that is what I have heard.

Inverter reliability is a very big issue for me too. My 5kW home built multistep inverter has not missed a beat in four and a half years of continuous operation. Its been built with accessibility in mind. By raising all the guts out of its enclosure on a couple of gas struts everything comes into plain view at a good working height. Everything either unplugs or unscrews, and I can swap out circuit boars or semiconductors with just a screwdriver in minutes.

Some of the commercial inverters are a genuine horror to work on.