Why is solar so damn difficult?

[CoolWill]

Electrical wiring, both residential and commercial, is pretty standardized and doesn't change much from year to year. But solar, like computers, is obsolete before you walk out of the supplier.

 

[sunsurfer]

I've been researching solar day and night for close to a year and only just found out by accident that the victron rs450/100 which I was about to buy, is actually two 450/50 inputs and would not have worked for my needs, for example.

Not to drive your point home further but to clarify for you and others, Its actually two 450v/18amp inputs and one 100amp (12v/24/48/) output to the battery. Max watts for charging per string is 4000watts. Fuse limit per string input is 20amps(7200w). Max charging watts total will be around 5600watts or so you have head room to over panel.

The two strings are nice for shading and such though I personally don't run high power strings. I would run 5 strings with 20amp controllers instead of one big one at 100amps.

 

[1201]

what/how are you trying to use it?

It can output max 100a/5760w to the bank. It can be overpaneled/input PV up to 7000w per tracker. Each tracker, can output up to 4000w alone or 5760w combined (100a DC)

I guess there is some confusion because it says it can do 100a total and has two independent mppts so I would assume 50a per mppt but it also says up to 4000w per mppt which would mean it can output 70a from any one mppt?

 

[1201]

Not to drive your point home further but to clarify for you and others, Its actually two 450v/18amp inputs and one 100amp (12v/24/48/) output to the battery. Max watts for charging per string is 4000watts. Fuse limit per string input is 20amps(7200w). Max charging watts total will be around 5600watts or so you have head room to over panel.

So does that mean it can output 70a to battery from one mppt?

qThe two strings are nice for shading and such though I personally don't run high power strings. I would run 5 strings with 20amp controllers instead of one big one at 100amps.

Educate me, How come you don't like high power strings?

 

[sunsurfer]

So does that mean it can output 70a to battery from one mppt?

Educate me, How come you don't like high power strings?

Yes, looks like around 70a max if only one string.

To answer your second question;

LINK - Why I keep my panel strings under 1KW and under 80v

 

[cs1234]

I've done that. I used to drag race and have built engines, differentials, exhaust systems, fabrication, etc Never did transmission because I had a friend who was good at it.

That was easier than solar ?

Oddly enough, there are fewer safety rules and regulations about building/modifying a car than there are about putting a couple solar panels in your backyard. One of them weighs multiple tons and goes down the road at 100+ mph possibly mere inches from other cars, the other can start fires / electrocute you. It seems they are both potentially dangerous.. what gives?

 

[Q-Dog]

Yes I finally upgraded to a Victron charge controller (100/30) and it's a night and day difference (ha ha) compared to the PITA Renogy I had previously. Higher production I think due to super fast MPPT tracking and it just WORKS without nasty little quirks and poor design/quality. Did you DIY your battery?

I bought a couple of kits that were matched cells, bus bars and BMS. Probably paid a little more than full DIY, but only had to bolt them together and wire up the BMS.

 

[45North]

And then after you've built it all there's operating variabilities in: power demand, oblivious users, daily and seasonal sun, shade, snow, weather etc...

 

[1201]

And then after you've built it all there's operating variabilities in: power demand, oblivious users, daily and seasonal sun, shade, snow, etc...

Diversion loads, sand battery etc etc ?

 

[sunsurfer]

I wish I had a huge budget for one of them "complicated" setups.

 

[EJansen]

Yeah, I read three books on electrical and wired my house. There are hundreds of good electrical books out there. I don't know of any comprehensive books on solar

I personally just did a lot of research on the internet, a lot of reading the forums, and a bit of trial and error, but the most all-inclusive / comprehensive, at least from a code perspective on solar that I found was the Mike Holt video series - https://www.mikeholt.com/product-category-list.php?id=6

It was a little pricey, but I thought it was worth it. Even now my current setup still isn't completely up to code, but the items that aren't compliant are somewhat minor, at least to me.

 

[Balrog006]

Electrical wiring, both residential and commercial, is pretty standardized and doesn't change much from year to year. But solar, like computers, is obsolete before you walk out of the supplier.

Because electrical wiring is a mostly mature field of technology, but the rules for implementation change every 3years (code updates) and safety and “smart” tech are starting to change the maturity level to some degree, but it can still be done simply.

Solar is an evolving and rapidly advancing and changing field of tech, suppliers, equipment and implementation, it’s a fast moving river and will carry you away if you can’t get your footing and stay your course.

 

[Tomthumb62]

bought a couple of kits that were matched cells, bus bars and BMS.

Mind sharing where you bought your kits from?

 

[Nobodybusiness]

One month? That's level zero ?

But you may be a fast learner.

As someone said get good equipment

It’s definitely a lot to become familiar with and organize.
Hang in there.

 

[Samsonite801]

Oddly enough, there are fewer safety rules and regulations about building/modifying a car than there are about putting a couple solar panels in your backyard. One of them weighs multiple tons and goes down the road at 100+ mph possibly mere inches from other cars, the other can start fires / electrocute you. It seems they are both potentially dangerous.. what gives?

Are you sure about that?

Ebay faces up to $2 billion in fines over selling "rolling coal" devices

E-commerce giant allegedly allowed hundreds of thousands of products that purposely spew car fumes to be sold on its platform.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Samsonite801]

I'm no stranger to learning and diy. I built the house I'm living in with my two hands and it took a lot of planning and research - framing, electrical, HVAC , drywall, septic etc.

That was childs play compared to solar. No wonder the unsuspecting public easily falls prey to solar salespeople who are ,truly, the scum of the earth. they stand no chance. But I digress.


I've been researching solar day and night for close to a year and only just found out by accident that the victron rs450/100 which I was about to buy, is actually two 450/50 inputs and would not have worked for my needs, for example.

Solar has been the hardest thing I've ever had to learn about - ground neutral bonding, auto transformers, surge capacity, system sizing with voc and isc and parallel or series strings, over current protection electrical code , nec rules, temperature factors, mppt, ac coupling, DC coupling , zero export, inadvertent export,panel main bus rating, main breaker derating, line side taps.

Battery sizing, precharge resistors,closed loop communication, lifepo4 voltage and charging, cable protection, wire sizing, shunts, low temperature cutoff, charging rate.

Mounting rails, wire management, grounding, rapid shutdown requirements

And as if thats not bad enough- one mistake and you're blowing up expensive parts, or worse burning down your house. And even if you do everything right, the inverter might still fail and Good luck getting signature solar to actually replace anything under warranty.

Why am I even doing solar again? ??

Just wait til you start getting into quantum energy transfer (energy from the vacuum), that's when it starts getting way hard to wrap the brain around it all...

 

[SilverbackMP]

But solar, like computers, is obsolete before you walk out of the supplier.

I would argue against this. The Chinesium trend has seen new models being introduced and others products retiring about as often as some folks change underwear. The tier one folks engineer the living hell out of things and will sell the same products for a decade or more. And with some previous generation equipment working with a newer generation. It’s only a bullsh!t consumer electronic cycle if you play that game.

 

[sunsurfer]

The tier one folks engineer the living hell out of things and will sell the same products for a decade or more.

Good point. I have a Magna-sine before they changed to the new plant in Mexico and ruined it. Old design for some years (not sure how many) but dang, it was a hell of a good inverter. It may out live me. If I see any 24v/48v used come up for sell, I would pick it up. No app or blue tooth but its a work horse.

 

[zanydroid]

I would argue against this. The Chinesium trend has seen new models being introduced and others products retiring about as often as some folks change underwear. The tier one folks engineer the living hell out of things and will sell the same products for a decade or more. And with some previous generation equipment working with a newer generation. It’s only a bullsh!t consumer electronic cycle if you play that game.

What non-Chinese brands are there that are DIY-friendly and code compliant for US stationary install? Very few.

Schneider is interested in that market but not going in a direction that most folks on here will agree with.

Outback is owned by a battery company.

MidNite is not chasing that market as aggressively as the Chinese brands.

Victron doesn't care about that market.

I guess the answer is wait for UL9540 DC ESS batteries to come out, that have NRTL-reviewed operating parameters wide enough to encompass the Victron/MidNite/Outback/Schneider systems of your preference, and the problem solves itself.

 

[sun walker]

I'm in the same place, but only about several months in. Self build/ off grid etc. My original pv system was/is so simple, a few Sharp panels, a sealed lead acid, a pwm, some 10amp car fuses, & its never missed a beat. Perfect for led lighting, & a lap top.
Got some money to burn, pv's are sooo cheap, so I'll upgrade, join the modern world, some cooling ac, dump excess power to a water heater, (no more fire wet back in the summer), a small electric stove to supplement the gas & wood stove etc.

Then came the damn mppt's, what a nightmare, decent mppt's cost more than the 7.5kw pv's, & victron, parts made in China & India, assembled in India, (as far as I can tell), basically filled with some kind of epoxy, so kinda impossible to repair, I've watch video's of them catching on fire, along with almost every other cheaper brand, do not want these near my home. To confuse matters more so many fakes, Chinese brands faking Chinese brands. Epever big problem issue with lithium batts.
My favorite was Canada's https://electrodacus.com/ but my system is really too big, I'd need 9 DSSR50 (controllers), 1 for each 2 pv. Probably settle for 3 x 60w SNRE mppt, or sadly 2 victron's for the 5 year guarantee, from registered suppliers.
This is a good rant post.
If you can get to the end, with a simple no fuss basic powerful system, it will all be worth it. Huh?

 

[Supervstech]

You are comparing a task to an industry...

BELIEVE ME... "electrician" covers a LOT more than wiring a house...

SOLAR could never be "easy" understanding solar panel specs should be fairly easy...
Understanding wiring a main breaker panel should be fairly easy.

If you try to understand EVERYTHING about an industry... you are going to be quite inundated.

No race car engineer would say the task is easy...
It ain't the same as building an engine... it is understanding center of gravity, vehicle weight distribution, air pressure, fuel density management, altitude, tire composition, track conditions, clutch mechanism materials and disintegration management, track rule comprehension, speed aerodynamics, downforce, bolt loading and stretch, material fatigue and SOOOOOOOO MANY more factors I assure you, SOLAR comprehension for a residence would be child's play.

I have worked in HVAC for 40 years... I was trained by my grandfather who started in 1946, and my father who took over the company in 84... to say I have experience in HVAC is an understatement... I dont know 20% I'd guess of the ENTIRE field. I learn more every day.
I have always worked with electrical... my skills with it qualified me to add electrical licensing to the company. I have finally gained the full unlimited license after going through special electrical license requirements for hvac fields, bumping that to limited electrical then finally unlimited over the decades...
I could wire a house to code in my sleep... bit there are so many aspects to the code, KNOWING even RESIDENTIAL electrical is mind boggling difficult.

Afci, gfci, grounding, bonding, ocp, fuses, ampacity, derating, conduit, wire fill, wire types, box design, panelboards, I could go on and on about what I do know... but BELIEVE ME, it is ALL difficult outside the basics.

You can understand a part of any industry... you could easily comprehend the needs of say a solar generator, and the specs of charging and using that.

Bump that up to the solar needs of powering completely everything a modern home with a fully loaded 200A panel house? Yeah... there is indeed a lot to learn. And a lot of pitfalls that experience gets you understanding.

 

[JJJJ]

Scale is an important consideration.

I started small. After considerable study I ordered my batteries. Slow boat was the only option at the time so it gave me more time to study.

I read and reviewed other builds on this forum. There is a lot to look at and learn from.

My system is only a 3k 24 volt system which powers certain items on a separate wiring system than the grid.

I was fortunate because my vendor at the time had an engineer who was able to listen to what I was trying to do and provided a scematic.

As I went through each phase of the build I would bounce it off the members of this forum. The feedback was invaluable. Albeit it stung at times like the time I used the wrong size lugs but it was priceless!

What I love is the creative side of this process. This is not a one size fits all process. As you indicated there are a lot of options out there. I can see how that could be overwhelming but on the other side a part of me finds it exciting. An opportunity to learn.

My next project is going to be a portable power station. It will incorporate what I have learned and give me a chance to play with new components.

Don't get me wrong. I didn't whip things together the first time. I lost track of the number of times I took apart and reassembled my first battery until I got what I wanted and needed. If you look at the hardiboard on my build there are empty holes showing how components were moved around to allow for a better configuration. In my book that is OK. I'm not planning on posting this in a magazine. When all is said and done it works nicely for the stage it is in as a UPS and solar addition is in the plan for 2024.

Yes it is possible to build everything as once, but as you stated there is a lot. It can be done.

Starting small and adding on has value. Some start by powering a shed or garage. They then take this experience to move on to bigger builds.

 

[mvonw]

Its all the level of abstraction you understand a system/subject at. I’m a moron and completely designed and installed my system. It’s been flawless for two years.

 

[1201]

Just wait til you start getting into quantum energy transfer (energy from the vacuum), that's when it starts getting way hard to wrap the brain around it all...

My brain is not ready for that ?.

 

[Q-Dog]

Mind sharing where you bought your kits from?

I bought one from here. Am happy with the performance ... unfortunately they had a price increase since I bought mine. https://www.treelinepowersystems.com/24V-LiFePO4-Batteries_c_26.html