Why there such huge Price difference between EVE cells and CALB cells
- Thread starter Usangira
- Start date
Frank in Thailand
making mistakes so you don't have to...
Sure.
Calb is high quality, have terminals build for threaded rods (M8!) And you can hold the terminal to apply enough torque to clamp any bus-bar as tight as needed, way beyond the 3.5-4Nm is is max for Eve or Lishen.
Besides this, the casing is more expensive, better to prevent delamination.
Eve and Lishen aren't build for threads.
In fact, they leave the factory without.
China home / garage "factory" drills holes and taps... Not always straight. Or deep enough.
There is just 6.5mm drilling space.
(Aluminium is 7mm thick)
They are supposed to be laser welded, and clamped down on the sides to prevent delamination.
(Pillow)
Eve where "popular" especially their 280Ah, till they ran out.
Now Lishen 272Ah seem to be post popular.
Were sometimes CalB is offered at lower price, total cost will be higher due increased weight, from the strong casing.
Calb is high quality, have terminals build for threaded rods (M8!) And you can hold the terminal to apply enough torque to clamp any bus-bar as tight as needed, way beyond the 3.5-4Nm is is max for Eve or Lishen.
Besides this, the casing is more expensive, better to prevent delamination.
Eve and Lishen aren't build for threads.
In fact, they leave the factory without.
China home / garage "factory" drills holes and taps... Not always straight. Or deep enough.
There is just 6.5mm drilling space.
(Aluminium is 7mm thick)
They are supposed to be laser welded, and clamped down on the sides to prevent delamination.
(Pillow)
Eve where "popular" especially their 280Ah, till they ran out.
Now Lishen 272Ah seem to be post popular.
Were sometimes CalB is offered at lower price, total cost will be higher due increased weight, from the strong casing.
DLTooley
New Member
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2020
- Messages
- 157
The market is evolving. I did considerable due diligence and just went with the choice of many on this forum, Amy Wan of Luyuang - formerly with Xuba. They have quality EVE cells at a premium, which I paid.
There are a lot of reports of folks receiving misrepresented grade B product. This may make sense if you know what you are doing.
This forum is a great resource, but perhaps we need a better way of tracking product and resellers.
There are a lot of reports of folks receiving misrepresented grade B product. This may make sense if you know what you are doing.
This forum is a great resource, but perhaps we need a better way of tracking product and resellers.
This is the fact I have been looking for.....If I can get 10yrs of storage am 100% happy
Steve_S
Emperor Of Solar
Calb, Winston/Thundersky are older and larger companies for one. EVE is a "newcomer" so to speak (not really) and expanding exponentially. EVE also has new supply contracts for Tesla and other Automakers as well (just signed this year) which is forwarding the company.
Many of these companies evolved from more "specialized" and smaller cell formats while CALB & Winston always went with Big Cells... Winston especially moved forward due to their work with Yttrium Doped Cells for Cold Use applications.
All vendors claim to sell Grade-A cells - well not so much.
All vendors claim Matched Cells. again, not really.
It's the interpretation via translation that get's the goose here.
BULK Cells are what is sold by most vendors. These come from Battery Brokers, they may be "New Old Stock", "Grade Edge Case", "Production Batch Remnants". These are also cells that do not pass Matching & Batching processes.
These are most typically Voltage & IR (Internal Resistance) matched usually with something like a YR1035+ battery tester.
This is done at the Resting Storage Voltage they are received with, there is no actual testing or capacity validation.
A typical Bulk 280AH cell will test out from 250AH to 282AH total capacity, these will have "runner cells *" more often than not and you would more or less be limited to 250-270AH total capacity.
Matched & Batched (simple explanation) cells come with Cell Reports !
These are run through a set of Charge Discharge cycles at various C-Rates with volt & IR sampling every 10 minutes or so which are logged, once the test cycles are completed, the cells with mathcing IR at the respective voltages are batched together. This allows all the cells to perform uniformly within a pack, throughout their operational cycle.
They will typically test out at 282AH-295AH and you will get the full 280AH from them while only using 90% of full capacity (because they are slightly over). These will generally NOT have runners, but if they do, they will only run well above/below the normal working ranges.
NOTE: Matching & Batching process can add up to 50% Above the cost of Bulk Cells.
* Runner Cells:
These are cells that once above 3.400Vpc they will run to 3.650 and cause a HVD (Hi Volt Disconnect) while the other cells are still lower in charge thereby limiting the full pack capacity.
There are also Runner Cells on the bottom side, where once they reach 2.850Vpc +/- will discharge faster to 2.500 than the other cells. Again resulting in an LVD (Lo Volt Disconnect).
GENERALLY these will still function within the Working Voltage Range of 3.000-3.400 which is the flat voltage curve.
Using Amy Wan / Luyuan Example:
She sells both Bulk & Matched cells.
EVE 280AH Bulk cell = $91.50 USD, but EVE Factory Matched cells are $125 USD which is a Great Deal for Matched cells.
Goto the EVE Official store and see what they Retail at... note that none of these Manufacturer companies want to deal with "Retail", they have storefronts because they have to, they only really want to deal with Corporate Buyers. Individuals are too difficult for the small amounts, honestly.
I hope that helps to answer your question. Good Luck & Have Fun !
Many of these companies evolved from more "specialized" and smaller cell formats while CALB & Winston always went with Big Cells... Winston especially moved forward due to their work with Yttrium Doped Cells for Cold Use applications.
All vendors claim to sell Grade-A cells - well not so much.
All vendors claim Matched Cells. again, not really.
It's the interpretation via translation that get's the goose here.
BULK Cells are what is sold by most vendors. These come from Battery Brokers, they may be "New Old Stock", "Grade Edge Case", "Production Batch Remnants". These are also cells that do not pass Matching & Batching processes.
These are most typically Voltage & IR (Internal Resistance) matched usually with something like a YR1035+ battery tester.
This is done at the Resting Storage Voltage they are received with, there is no actual testing or capacity validation.
A typical Bulk 280AH cell will test out from 250AH to 282AH total capacity, these will have "runner cells *" more often than not and you would more or less be limited to 250-270AH total capacity.
Matched & Batched (simple explanation) cells come with Cell Reports !
These are run through a set of Charge Discharge cycles at various C-Rates with volt & IR sampling every 10 minutes or so which are logged, once the test cycles are completed, the cells with mathcing IR at the respective voltages are batched together. This allows all the cells to perform uniformly within a pack, throughout their operational cycle.
They will typically test out at 282AH-295AH and you will get the full 280AH from them while only using 90% of full capacity (because they are slightly over). These will generally NOT have runners, but if they do, they will only run well above/below the normal working ranges.
NOTE: Matching & Batching process can add up to 50% Above the cost of Bulk Cells.
* Runner Cells:
These are cells that once above 3.400Vpc they will run to 3.650 and cause a HVD (Hi Volt Disconnect) while the other cells are still lower in charge thereby limiting the full pack capacity.
There are also Runner Cells on the bottom side, where once they reach 2.850Vpc +/- will discharge faster to 2.500 than the other cells. Again resulting in an LVD (Lo Volt Disconnect).
GENERALLY these will still function within the Working Voltage Range of 3.000-3.400 which is the flat voltage curve.
Using Amy Wan / Luyuan Example:
She sells both Bulk & Matched cells.
EVE 280AH Bulk cell = $91.50 USD, but EVE Factory Matched cells are $125 USD which is a Great Deal for Matched cells.
Goto the EVE Official store and see what they Retail at... note that none of these Manufacturer companies want to deal with "Retail", they have storefronts because they have to, they only really want to deal with Corporate Buyers. Individuals are too difficult for the small amounts, honestly.
I hope that helps to answer your question. Good Luck & Have Fun !
@Steve_S gotta love that word "Cabineer" thx10^6. ur post was over 3 yrs old but so prophetic. Its only by we DIY "Shedlers" sharing hard won info that we get to stay ahead, inoculated against fake Eastern promises. We are such small beer customers in the Lifepo world that we only get the crumbs off the table via factory reject-resellers. I guess we should be grateful for that market access otherwise the Big Corps would have shut us all out long ago. We are at the dawn of 2024 and even a week is a long time in the frantic development of LAB NMH replacement tech. Lipo - Lifepo - SiB. Ive just taken delivery of 8s 18650 SiB 1.5Ah cells for testing. 6 months ago these weren't available, now they are flying them to an EU in Poland and delivery to me in 3 weeks all taxes duty etc paid £23 for 8 off. Amazing. So far these SiBs are ca half the Wh/kg of Lifepos but that is evolving. When this chemistry gets on to a repurposed Lithium production line then the cost (2x) will doubtless free fall by this time next year. For me (I am rewilding Golf carts from LAB heritage) these may well prove to be a Tsunami for the battery cart industry for the simple reasons of cost value, life 10x LAB, safety vs Lion and above all a steep/predictable Volt/SoC curve (so much easier to determine "fuel in your tank". Watch out for the "quad bike" type urban personal transport, light weight <250kg, and battery swapping packs that you carry indoors for recharging (or even pump stations that offer instant exchange or your empty pack for a full pack (Sodium Safety a big plus here).
So thats my take for 2024 - what's your prediction?
So thats my take for 2024 - what's your prediction?
Brucey
Velcro Man
Thinking we will see the new LF306K and LF560K cells which will put further price pressure on the "old stuff".
Daddy Tanuki
Emperor Of Solar
true but the nylon/plastic cased cells have proven to be robust with a lot less issues that the aluminum cased cells. part of it is the aluminum cased cells locked themselves into a case size and have not changed. if the newer cells allow for a larger cell case they might alleviate some of these issues but not all of them.
I just ordered 32 of the winston 400aH cells new form the factory.... cost more yes, worried aobut what happens 6 months down the road? nope.
Brucey
Velcro Man
Can you share your pricing? Nylon cells definitely seem to be the way to go if you can afford the price premium.
Daddy Tanuki
Emperor Of Solar
12,000 USD delivered to Japan. this CIF. (I deal with customs) it will be different for you if you are in the US , Europe etc. that's little less than twice the cost per amp hour in comparison to Eve cells by the regular vendors here on this forum as quoted to me. those were the 280 eve from Amy Wan with no enforceable warranty for anything.
Eve 280 x 32 was $4623.00 shipped to japan no customs = 8.25/amp hour
winston LYP400AHA-b 400 amp hour x 32 was 12,600 shipped straight from factory = 15.75/amp hour. one year warranty with a legal contract.
these are the winston 400 amp hour cells so in my 48 volt system this will give me 800 amp hours. They are rated from 2.8-4.0 (actually 3.8) but my plan is too run them the same as any other liFePo4 even though technically they are Lithium Yttrium which makes them a LYP batteries.
Better cold weather performance for charging and discharging is their forte. direct communications with Winston informed me that they advertise down to -40 for discharge and -25 for charging (@.2c) but best practice is for the same as lithium keep it above 5°c for long life. 7000 cycle bla bla bla. They have been selling them for over 15 years and plenty of folks out there with 10-15 year old systems in the yachting community.
I currently have 500 amp hours of CALB's but needed to increase capacity and this was the easiest safest way in my opinion. cost is an option, but at this level better to pay for the known and proven.
product details:
Daddy Tanuki
Emperor Of Solar
hold off about a month and i can give you an update on if my order went well or not. we are going into the Japanese and Chinese new years so everything is closed until about the 8th of January. i bet they do not ship until then and then 2 weeks from factory to Yokohama port and another week for me to get them clear of customs.
many thanx I didnt know about LYP cells, nor appreciate the merits of the Winston cell - bit over budget for my app but certainly a must have for a serious long term off grid installation - imagine a 20 year fit and forget (well nearly - at least not worry about Mickey Mouse kit.
I am following GWL for a Lifepo 24V pack using Elerix cells (with proper M8 threads to mount your own ss stud) - they seem a real Engineer crowd in Czechia for 10 years+ Not Mickey Mouse but still source their cells from PRC pro temp. Quite right about not having your supply risk limited to one country (especially if Ginger Hair piece gets elected). No point going Green if your Supplier can get Mean.
Daddy Tanuki
Emperor Of Solar
Honestly there are some questions about if they can actually charge at -25 but anything is better than cut off at 5 centigrade
Xepshunall
New Member
You guys are talking about some of the most expensive prismatic cells known to the DIY community. I would have thought that these prices would drop, over the years, with competition from other manufacturers including Hithium. I bought my 314Ah cells with the supplier's claim that they each do 320 or better. They're for stationary use so I expect that proper build quality will negate any concerns about physical strength of the case, of which I had never before thought. This does cause me to think about which cells are the best choice for my truck's battery cells. The best price I could get for my Hithium cells is $63.08 after tax, shipping, and Alibaba's 3% transaction fee. I find it hard to understand why so many people are avoiding these cells while I have had no luck finding bad reviews of them. It's my understanding that people believe these are 320Ah cells that are supposedly rejected for under-performing. At this price, I'm content to have over 58 kWh of LiFePo4, without breaking the bank. Total cost using two suppliers was $3,639.16, which I could come close to by buying group 29 FLA batteries for $12,630.56 at Walmart and spending about as much, in man hours, tools, and supplies, building the bank as it would cost to buy the 3x 16s BMSs and the 4s BMS using fewer supplies and tools that I already own. The big win is that I'll use far less floor space in my inverter/battery shed. Some of the cells and inverter capacity are just for keeping the cells above 70f. I read this to be the ideal ambient temperature for them.
Daddy Tanuki
Emperor Of Solar
Part of the cost is the fact that winston follows international shipping rules... the cells were marked as hazmat properly and they were packed in a fashion that pretty much precludes any damage short of a forklift actually punching through the wooden crates they came shipped in.
If a company is willing to lie on export paperwork and skimp on packing, what else are they skimping on? To each his own, I went the cheap cell route with my first order, and I will eventually have to pay to dispose of them... that will cost me more than what I saved by buying cheaper cells and I will not get even a fraction of the life I will get form the winstons.
I have received emails form them twice since I received them, one last week inquiring into the health of the cells, if there have been any issues at all, and a request for data if any do give me any issues so that they can issue a return claim for me.... In other words with my little order they are still concerned about taking care of the customer.
thats what gives a warm and fuzzy and makes me want to buy more if needed. (I don't) but if i did, i would spend the same amount of more happily.
Xepshunall
New Member
As you said, "To each his own". I'm sorry that it seems to have triggered you. I'll try to look for your angry face avatar and refrain from posting in threads where you are participating. Peace!
Daddy Tanuki
Emperor Of Solar
not triggered you took the post wrong it was simply the way I decided to go after having screwed up once trying to save, i chose a route that has lots of evidence of success (over 20 years on the Aus. markets). and they have been touching bases with me on a regular basis since then. thats customer service when there is no need for them to do it. Sorry you took it wrong.
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