Why, yes, DIYers can do it better

[sunshine_eggo]

Scary words

LOL... I had to go back and check what I wrote...

 

[Madcodger]

Did you not get the serial # list on the invoice or shipping bill?

I need to go back and check. They came from Current Connected so the odds are in my favor. And the installers emailed me the wiring color scheme they used last night, so that's helpful (confirmed what I thought). Not encouraging to see a post that says Tigo has trouble discovering neighboring modules, but we shall see. Hey, I needed another project (sarcasm).

 

[DPC]

That can be incredibly frustrating. There is definitely a lack of care in all trades, and despite what some say, it is distinctly different than 25 years ago. At least where I live.

The trouble is a trade is training on the job way of learning a skill....

Most employers do not want to hire people who are not fully trained to do a job.
The fear is if you train someone they will leave once they are trained so you teach new employees the bare minimum required to do their job, and wages reflect this....

SO a young person has to go to school and pay for his own training....
Then he finds a job to complete and apprenticeship...
He passes his trade exam and gets his certifications.

If his wages at this point do not match what he sees he quits.
The employer has no incentive to train him because he is expected to quit.
In the end the skill level is low in spite of the certification and wages paid out.

It takes about 10 years from start to finish to make a highly skilled person in any field.
Young people today expect to change jobs every 5 years and maybe they completely change what they do for a living that many times so they never get to be great at something, merely good enough to pas the bar.

Who is to blame for this?
The employer? No he has a business to run he cant waste time and resources on people that lack skills and will quit on him.
The Employee? No he can't waster time on employers that do not train and pay a middle class wage.

20 years ago there were plenty of people trained well enough to run a job and disposable young people to do the grunt work that this did not matter.
Now we are all getting old and retiring and no one was trained our replacements.

 

[RV8R]

The trouble is a trade is training on the job way of learning a skill....

Most employers do not want to hire people who are not fully trained to do a job.
The fear is if you train someone they will leave once they are trained so you teach new employees the bare minimum required to do their job, and wages reflect this....

SO a young person has to go to school and pay for his own training....
Then he finds a job to complete and apprenticeship...
He passes his trade exam and gets his certifications.

If his wages at this point do not match what he sees he quits.
The employer has no incentive to train him because he is expected to quit.
In the end the skill level is low in spite of the certification and wages paid out.

It takes about 10 years from start to finish to make a highly skilled person in any field.
Young people today expect to change jobs every 5 years and maybe they completely change what they do for a living that many times so they never get to be great at something, merely good enough to pas the bar.

Who is to blame for this?
The employer? No he has a business to run he cant waste time and resources on people that lack skills and will quit on him.
The Employee? No he can't waster time on employers that do not train and pay a middle class wage.

20 years ago there were plenty of people trained well enough to run a job and disposable young people to do the grunt work that this did not matter.
Now we are all getting old and retiring and no one was trained our replacements.

It’s a problem in Canada also.

Here is Mike Rowe on topic;

 

[Mike 134]

You are as old as you feel!!! Still jumping off my pickup tailgate at 68, downhill skiing with my hair on fire!! You 50 YOs sit in your rocker if it makes you feel better, I prefer not to disappear into a pile of rust like that old car in the farmer's field.

 

[TM48]

You are as old as you feel!!! Still jumping off my pickup tailgate at 68, downhill skiing with my hair on fire!! You 50 YOs sit in your rocker if it makes you feel better, I prefer not to disappear into a pile of rust like that old car in the farmer's field.

I agree. Keep moving or you won't be for long.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

take a crossbow tie a line on it and shoot across the highest part of the house. tie the far end off properly and then get (buy) a climbing harness and a grigri as you climb you snug the rope in the grigri. it will not release unless you release it. you could fall and the grigri arrester will stop you after a foot or so. (with static line) you can hang with no injury until you collect your wits and use the grigri's release to lower yourself a foot or two at a time. a grigri is probably 80 bucks for a brand name petzl or cheaper for an off brand, the static line will cost more than the arrester will so call it 250 USD for no name brand but medium quality rope, harness and a generic grigri arrester.

its a lot cheaper than any hospital visit, and 15 minutes of watching youtube will suffice to protect you form injury/death.

a smart man would play with it from a tree or a rafter in the barn to get used to it first though.

i used to do a lot fo climbing for pleasure (mountain, rock and bouldering) and for clearing trees for firewood use and what not. generic but medium quality can be found on any climbing website just make sure its got the CE or UIAA certs and that will guarantee the quality of meeting the minimum which is all you need for work like this.. worse case you are in your 80's and have frail bones you might break a collar bone if you somehow managed to fall upside down (how i have no clue) and the harness catch and flips you upright. but thats about it static line will not stretch so you will only fall as far as you have slack. if you constantly pull in the slack then you will fall the amount of slop in the harness you are wearing.... keep it snug and ensure your family jewels are between the crotch straps....it fits just like a parachute if that makes sense. and you could litterally only drop 6-8 inches as slack is taken up. you might get chaffing form the harness but thats preferable to injury.

i prefer a full harness not half though youngsters prefer those newer smaller harness's

 

[DPC]

It’s a problem in Canada also.

Here is Mike Rowe on topic;

I'm from Canada.
I see this everyday.

My employer does not spend any significant amount of money on training.
We literally break stuff and ruin things in the process of trying to understand how it functions and how to repair it.
Then they spend a fortune with the OEM to put their people in our plants to un-fucerkerize what we break.
It probably costs double than if we were just trained...

Maybe triple when you factor the cost of a contractor that costs 100 dollars an hour more than I cost.

Then there is the straight forward fraud of having imbeded contractors with a separate warehousing and surly chain.
We buy things that never existed rent stuff we never see and sometimes we rent it forever...
Then you get the payola of greased hands to get someone's son hired at that contractor to come over and do a job that pays twice than if he was a just a nepo case hire for a staff job.

All because we cant train, don't pay and hire outsiders to show us how to do our jobs.
Yes we have 2500 people doing the jobs of 22000 in 1970.
But we are indirectly paying probably more than that to outsiders because we can not train, plan and do our own work anymore.

Its in every large company today...
And always there are people skimming and scamming money out of the operations.

 

[DPC]

You are as old as you feel!!! Still jumping off my pickup tailgate at 68, downhill skiing with my hair on fire!! You 50 YOs sit in your rocker if it makes you feel better, I prefer not to disappear into a pile of rust like that old car in the farmer's field.

I'm full of asbestos, my liver and kidneys are damaged from heavy metal exposer.
I have skin problems and allergies to metals that cause sores on my body. ( commonly known as nickel rash )
I've lost about 30% of my hearing.
My joints are worn out I need plastic knuckles and a knee replacement,

I am far older than my time and I probably wont live as long as you by a wide margin.
The deal was do this job and you will be rewarded with a good pension at 55 and benefits for life.
They lied and broke the deal...

I cant jump off a tailgate or ski.

 

[CaliSunHarvester]

They lied and broke the deal

Who was this employer or what field was this?

Sorry to read that, seriously.

 

[DPC]

Who was this employer or what field was this?

Sorry to read that, seriously.

Doesn’t really matter
Employers have reneged on deals like this as long as there have been pensions and benefit plans

These things are covered in collective agreements
But there is no reason to expect your employer will not try and renegotiate things towards then end of your career
Then all those young guys that quit their jobs will sell out those old timers that fought for these things you really need when you get old.

You think we would learn
Studebaker fucked over the Packard pensioners
Algoma fucked over their pensioners
( the joke SIS limited the maintenance contractor is really name seniors in service)
Nortel fucked over their pensioners

And I will get fucked too

Мертьа рука

Translation dead hand or hand from the grave.
To fail deadly….
Opposition of fail safe
My poison pill for a lifetime of toil will be the truth.
To point where the poison is buried

Also no need to be sorry.
I’m am not unique
Show me any one that worked in heavy industry that has not been injured to some extent by what they did living

Worse are the way so many other people
Vets, firemen, first responders are treated when they fall I’ll
That’s much worse than industrial debased because we pay lip service to them in public then ignore them when they die from it in old age

 

[green mountain boys]

take a crossbow tie a line on it and shoot across the highest part of the house. tie the far end off properly and then get (buy) a climbing harness and a grigri as you climb you snug the rope in the grigri. it will not release unless you release it. you could fall and the grigri arrester will stop you after a foot or so. (with static line) you can hang with no injury until you collect your wits and use the grigri's release to lower yourself a foot or two at a time. a grigri is probably 80 bucks for a brand name petzl or cheaper for an off brand, the static line will cost more than the arrester will so call it 250 USD for no name brand but medium quality rope, harness and a generic grigri arrester.

its a lot cheaper than any hospital visit, and 15 minutes of watching youtube will suffice to protect you form injury/death.

a smart man would play with it from a tree or a rafter in the barn to get used to it first though.

i used to do a lot fo climbing for pleasure (mountain, rock and bouldering) and for clearing trees for firewood use and what not. generic but medium quality can be found on any climbing website just make sure its got the CE or UIAA certs and that will guarantee the quality of meeting the minimum which is all you need for work like this.. worse case you are in your 80's and have frail bones you might break a collar bone if you somehow managed to fall upside down (how i have no clue) and the harness catch and flips you upright. but thats about it static line will not stretch so you will only fall as far as you have slack. if you constantly pull in the slack then you will fall the amount of slop in the harness you are wearing.... keep it snug and ensure your family jewels are between the crotch straps....it fits just like a parachute if that makes sense. and you could litterally only drop 6-8 inches as slack is taken up. you might get chaffing form the harness but thats preferable to injury.

i prefer a full harness not half though youngsters prefer those newer smaller harness's

I like to use a taut line hitch or a blake's hitch with the static line and harness. Both work well. The knots replace the grigri. If you use the knots you just have to manage the heat produced in the knot. Do not decend too fast or you will damage the rope and possibly burn your hand.

 

[Bluedog225]

Yeah. I fell about 14’ onto concrete. Broke most of my spine. Wasn’t fun. Though they did give me fentanyl which was nice.

On the panels, how high up is the lowest you can reach? An IPhone duck taped to a long piece of bamboo might be able to get up there while recording. Depending on where you are, you might find one up to 30’. Most folks are fine to give you a stalk.

 

[DPC]

Yeah. I fell about 14’ onto concrete. Broke most of my spine. Wasn’t fun.

Jesus Christ....
That's an awful fall.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

I like to use a taut line hitch or a blake's hitch with the static line and harness. Both work well. The knots replace the grigri. If you use the knots you just have to manage the heat produced in the knot. Do not decend too fast or you will damage the rope and possibly burn your hand.

personally I could and have done it with a carabiner, but for an inexperienced/ casual user/person the grigri is probably safer

 

[crossy]

You are as old as you feel!!!

Or as old as the woman you feel!!

The crazy Thai woman I'm married to is 75.

I often find her up one of our mango trees putting bags over the fruit (to stop insects), ably(?) assisted by our maid who she calls the "old woman".

I've tried to persuade her to wait for our grandkids to visit (they come every week) but apparently the insects won't wait!

 

[OffGridForGood]

Employers have reneged on deals like this as long as there have been pensions and benefit plans

seen it over and over,
seems to be planned:
Let a company 'get into financial trouble'
call on governments to bail it out,
oh look - if the pension money were used to 'help' the company you may still have a job next year...but you will have to accept a pay cut...
But not the executives, no they get a big fat bonus, as the company closes the doors.
And then a new company appears later...without a collective agreement.
Like Magic.

 

[wpns]

This is a long post. Sorry. The main parts are the last two paragraphs, but I wanted to give both some thank-you's and some context. Anyway...

With once exception that I'll discuss below, I've installed every element of our 100% off grid, 13.6KW, four string, three inverter, five battery (1400 AH) system by myself. I am not an electrician or engineer, and have no formal training in any of this. I have renovated many properties over the years, but "self-taught" applies quite nicely to me when it comes to solar. @Will Prowse, @Gavin Stone, @HighTechLab, @timselectric @FilterGuy @Adam De Lay @EG4TechSolutionsTeam and many others on this forum made this possible whether they realize it or not, so THANK YOU. I've dreamed of doing this for almost 30 years, and simply could not be happier with the way our EG4 system is performing. And when I finish this post I'm going to walk over to my separate office building and try to wrap up the install of a Victron system much like the first system I ever built, three years ago, when @sunshine_eggo and others tolerated my questions and general lack of knowledge and helped me gain the confidence to build the system we have today.

The one thing I "hired out" was mounting the panels on the steep gambrel roof of our "barnpartment". I did that because 1) I didn't have a ladder that tall 2) my upper body strength is a fraction of what it was in my younger days, and 3) Mrs. Madcodger wisely reminded me that I no longer possess Wolverine-like healing powers, gravity still exists, and I might well have to face the fact that I am a mere mortal. So, fine, I reached out to the professionals.

Some friends had recently completed a commercial installation for their business (almost 50KW) and I liked the look of their install. The same company that did that (eventually) agreed to install my roof panels. While they were here I also had them install six additional panels on my office building. Because these panels are on the roof of the building and I'm a former firefighter who also wants to remain code-compliant, I ordered Tigo optimisers to handle Rapid ShutDown (RSD), thinking that this would also allow me to track the performance of individual PV panels and find the problem panel should something go wrong. And that's where I became convinced that a careful DIYer CAN often do a better, or at least more careful, job than"professionals".

You see, the key to using Tigo Optimizers is that you capture the serial number of each optimiser, and record that on a little "map" of your panel layout. They even give you little stickers to make that ridiculously easy. But did the professional, well-known, solar installation company do any of that? Did they write down even one of the serial numbers, anywhere? Well, of course they didn't. And while they were at it, they didn't record the color-coding of the RS-485 wires they connected to the TAP module up on the roof, either ( I was able to figure that out with some trial and error). So know I have a bunch of overly expensive RSD devices (at least I hope they work for that - I'll test it near the end of the day) that can't do anything for me in terms of optimization or panel monitoring.

Had I not been incredibly busy with year-end work on the day of the installation (which had been rescheduled twice), I would have done all that recording and mapping myself. I just foolishly assumed that with the size of crew they brought to the job, and their experience, they would of course handle this simple task. Well, you know what happens when you make assumptions... So, until one day in the new year when I rent a boom lift to do other work around the place and can figure out a way to capture a picture of at least one or two optimizers underneath the panels, I have a bunch of very expensive devices that aren't doing nearly as much as they're supposed to do, because I relied on professionals. The panels and conduit and wiring do look to be very well installed, so that aspect of the work appears to be very good. And I'm still glad I hired them, as the panels are up, I'm still in once piece, and Mrs. Madcodger doesn't have to cart me off to the Emergency Room, which has happened before. So, hey, professionals do have their place. But I can say that their installation is also the only element of this entire system where a problem of any size has cropped up, and it could have been prevented had they just not "gone through the motions". Anyway, I think all of this underscores the fact that DIY-ers can install their own systems, and might well do it more carefully than professionals.

Good, fast, cheap, pick one(?).

I’m with you, I do everything I can myself, farm out the stuff I’m too old to do, and try to supervise where I can.

When you tell someone what you want, and then explain it to him, and then show him, and then demonstrate, and then take him down to the woodshop, select the materials, set up the table saw, do the cut, take the piece up to the house, find and supply the double-stick tape to hold it in place until the caulking can dry, and then have it fall down 3 days later because he didn’t do the caulking step, it gets a little discouraging. Still, he was grateful for the education.