Will EV's make electricity expensive? Need good answer.

12VoltInstalls

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Did you work out how much you would spend on Petro ? You'll find that the petro cost more than the electrons.
Yes, but a new petro car can be had ~US$18- $22K, a Chevy electric econobox is $32K, and a tesla $45K+

Since people- foolishly or not- elect to select things based on a monthly outlay (payment) and often neglect the fuel and maintenance costs facts, reality, and theory may not coincide while wishful thinking, hope, and willful ignorance may coincide…
 

dweick

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Sorry if you think I'm attacking you. But, I very much have to drive far more than 50 miles per day. You need to start with the numbers, not rosy predictions. 90% of the problems I see on this site is people never doing the math first before they start building something.

You are not going to get a 20A/120V charger. They might not even be made. They make it a 12A standard for a reason, and that is so the standard EV user can simply plug directly into a wall socket. It's for simplicity, not performance. Your typical household socket will not handle 20A, so they do not make them that way. Maybe you only drive less than 50 miles per day, but in California a lot of regular folks have double that every day. 1.4kWh out of the wall might not get you there.

Getting a 20A+ 240V charging circuit installed in your house is also doable, but not going to be cheap. On solar, it's going to be very hard. I'd guess that my solar system is likely to be larger than about 95% of the other posters here, and I would be very hard-pressed to run a 240V charger for very long.
Average daily mileage in the US is about 30 miles and modern EVs are doing at least 3 mi/kWh (Model 3 is closer to 4 mi/kWh). There is no 12A "standard", the standard for 120V outlets is 15A and 20A which mean 12A and 16A charging rates. Most modern homes have a 20A 120V outlet in the garage. You want to start with real facts don't claim "you are not going to get a 20A/120V charger" and "they might not even be made". Every Tesla has a charger that comes with it that can be used at 20A and 120V (using a 30A outlet) but I assume you meant a 20A 120V outlet and they will work with those to at the usual 80% of circuit rating (16A).
 

wattmatters

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Did you work out how much you would spend on Petro ?
I wasn't so much concerned with the cost of the energy nor doing the cost comparison with my ICEV. I was just interested in how much electrical energy it would require relative to our current home consumption. At ~15% it's not that much and well within the capacity of my existing PV systems to support the majority of an Ev's energy demand. That figure could be out by 1/3rd either way and the answer is still the same.

But since you bring up the savings....

For us an equivalent EV to our ICEV loses the $ equation comfortably.

ICEV energy: 900 litres of diesel/year @ $1.70/l = $1530/year
EV energy: 3200 kWh/year @ $0.076/kWh = $243/year
Energy saving: $1287/year or $107/month

Maintenance: Let's call it $800/year less for the EV (it's less than that based on the scheduled servicing but let's go with that)
= $67/month saving

So I'm ahead by $174/month on energy and maintenance.

Insurance is quite a bit more for the EV (I've done the quotes) but let's ignore that. But hey, let's err on the side of being very generous and say I'm $200/month better off due to the lower operating costs of the equivalent EV to my ICEV.

That's great!

However it pales into insignificance compared with extra depreciation on the higher purchase price of the equivalent EV (zero EV incentives here). This extra depreciation cost is ~$600/month. Ouch.

IOW I'd be $400/month in the toilet.

Depreciation is the single biggest cost of vehicle ownership, at least it is here, hence the much higher purchase price of EVs where I am does not make them particularly attractive options.

The purchase cost differential needs to drop quite a long way. I'd need the equivalent EV to be less than 10% more expensive than the ICEV. At the moment it's close to double the price.
 

time2roll

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$600 a month EXTRA depreciation is $43,200 over six years. Are you sure you are comparing similar vehicles?
 

NwCali

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Yes, but a new petro car can be had ~US$18- $22K, a Chevy electric econobox is $32K, and a tesla $45K+
I'm going down a different path on this...

If you make enough to pay taxes that EV in my State might come out to around $23,000. So, the rich folks can pay poor folks prices.

Even worse is you can get big "rebates" on solar if your that rich person, and charge you'r EV for free (or even make money on it)...
 
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wattmatters

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EVs are really expensive here.
I should add there are cheaper EVs but at an equivalent price I get a lot less car. I'm not rushing out to buy an unproven Chinese rust bucket (and a lot of the Chinese brands sold here do have bad rust issues due to the type of steel and forming processes used).

Now a smaller car with less load carrying capacity may suit us in future but even with smaller cars the price differential is still staggering.

e.g. here a petrol Kona is half the price of an EV Kona. Half the price. You just can't make that sort of difference back in energy + service costs.

Oh, I should add, in some states here there is an EV road user tax. It's not high at 2.5c/km so ~$375/year added to the EV operational costs.

This is purportedly to make up for loss of fuel excise. They kind of gloss over the fact that EVs typically incur a range of much higher taxes on purchase. e.g. because they are more expensive, many of them incur an extra luxury car tax that their petrol equivalent doesn't. And the GST is also much larger because the price is higher. But don't get between a State Premier and a bucket of cash.

I have to laugh at all the EV articles here that put forward the total cost of ownership equation to show EVs are cheaper but universally fail to mention depreciation.
 

Supervstech

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Average daily mileage in the US is about 30 miles and modern EVs are doing at least 3 mi/kWh (Model 3 is closer to 4 mi/kWh). There is no 12A "standard", the standard for 120V outlets is 15A and 20A which mean 12A and 16A charging rates. Most modern homes have a 20A 120V outlet in the garage. You want to start with real facts don't claim "you are not going to get a 20A/120V charger" and "they might not even be made". Every Tesla has a charger that comes with it that can be used at 20A and 120V (using a 30A outlet) but I assume you meant a 20A 120V outlet and they will work with those to at the usual 80% of circuit rating (16A).
Actually… every Tesla includes a charger that can operate at up to 16A 120V, OR 16A 240V… 1920W/3840W or, 3mph to 28mph charging… none will operate at 20A120V they do pull 20 or so amps of 240v if connected to a 14-50 outlet like an RV50 amp socket.
 

MattiFin

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Yes that is a safe assumption. The J1772 protocol makes sure the car is connected before any power is applied. As @MattiFin mentioned above the EVSE is just a glorified contactor but it does have a handshaking routine that also matches the capacity of the circuit to tell the on-board charger how many Amps to draw. He must have an impressive junk box of parts that he could put one of those together in an hour or two.:)
IIRC level 2 charging was pretty easy, one resistor value tells maximum cable current and 1khz pwm signal from wall box tells the car how much power it is allowed to draw.
Connector itself would be hardest to find in junk box but you could make your own with a lathe and couple of sticks of hot glue in a pinch 🤪
 

JoJa15

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Yes, but a new petro car can be had ~US$18- $22K, a Chevy electric econobox is $32K, and a tesla $45K+

Since people- foolishly or not- elect to select things based on a monthly outlay (payment) and often neglect the fuel and maintenance costs facts, reality, and theory may not coincide while wishful thinking, hope, and willful ignorance may coincide…
Average cost of a vehicle (petrol and Electric) in September 2021 was $45,031
A tesla may cost $45k+ but in many areas they have rebates that range anywhere from $4k to $12k cutting that price significantly. In the US if the federal rebates come through that could increase the rebates by another $5k - $10k.
 

time2roll

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Average cost of a vehicle (petrol and Electric) in September 2021 was $45,031
A tesla may cost $45k+ but in many areas they have rebates that range anywhere from $4k to $12k cutting that price significantly. In the US if the federal rebates come through that could increase the rebates by another $5k - $10k.
Yes and skip the FSD, fancy wheels and performance package.
 

dweick

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Actually… every Tesla includes a charger that can operate at up to 16A 120V, OR 16A 240V… 1920W/3840W or, 3mph to 28mph charging… none will operate at 20A120V they do pull 20 or so amps of 240v if connected to a 14-50 outlet like an RV50 amp socket.
My Tesla can charge from a 15A 120V outlet, a 20A 120V outlet or a 30A 120V outlet. All at 80% of the rated circuit capacity, (12/16/24A). Using the Tesla Mobile Connector Gen 2 that comes with every Tesla and the adapter for the particular receptacle I want to plug into. The most common RV'rs would run across is the TT-30, have one in a carport at my parent's home, they used it to plug their RV in when parked there, works fine with my Tesla too.

The charger is fully capable of charging at 20A as well (from that 30A outlet). Just manually set the charge level to 20A, though the EVSE is happy to draw 24A from that 30A outlet.

Saying none will operate at 20A is simply not true. The unit is perfectly capable of operating at up to 24A at 120V (30A 120V receptacle).

It is also not true they will only operate at only 20a plugged into a 14-50, I have a 14-50 in my garage and it pulls 32A @ 240V.

I haven't tested it but it likely also works with a 120V 50A circuit at the full capacity of the charger, 32A
 
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Supervstech

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My Tesla can charge from a 15A 120V outlet, a 20A 120V outlet or a 30A 120V outlet. All at 80% of the rated circuit capacity, (12/16/24A). Using the Tesla Mobile Connector Gen 2 that comes with every Tesla and the adapter for the particular receptacle I want to plug into. The most common RV'rs would run across is the TT-30, have one in a carport at my parent's home, they used it to plug their RV in when parked there, works fine with my Tesla too.

The charger is fully capable of charging at 20A as well (from that 30A outlet). Just manually set the charge level to 20A, though the EVSE is happy to draw 24A from that 30A outlet.

Saying none will operate at 20A is simply not true. The unit is perfectly capable of operating at up to 24A at 120V (30A 120V receptacle).

It is also not true they will only operate at only 20a plugged into a 14-50, I have a 14-50 in my garage and it pulls 32A @ 240V.

I haven't tested it but it likely also works with a 120V 50A circuit at the full capacity of the charger, 32A
Interesting.
I have installed a lot of charging outlets for tesla owners, I will let them know this.
Thanks!
 
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