diy solar

diy solar

Will please answer this question regarding your recent video...

I'm in the UK & frankly I'm staggered by the level of imposed state control for PV & storage in the "Land of the 'free' "
It's all in the name of "public safety". Clearly I see it to a point. But there are definitely some newer regs that appear to be design to prompt one business over another. (like the newest NEC that all LFP batteries must be UL).

With "public safety", lately I've learned to follow the money.
 
you can have a 240VAC 20A line in plain romex in the outbuilding, but any DC circuit - regardless of voltage or current - must be in metal conduit, including the 150VDC 9A circuit. Plastic conduit isn't enough.
Waitaminute, you're saying that if I want to put solar on my out building, I'm Legally Required to run the wires in a NON-Watertight conduit???

In Washington (rocking the 2020 NEC)...
In the rain...

Does that strike anyone else as particularly stupid??

And how many LiFe battery manufacturers are UL listed? I'm guessing not Chins/Ampertime/Zoom, Etc...
 
Waitaminute, you're saying that if I want to put solar on my out building, I'm Legally Required to run the wires in a NON-Watertight conduit???

In Washington (rocking the 2020 NEC)...
In the rain...

Does that strike anyone else as particularly stupid??

And how many LiFe battery manufacturers are UL listed? I'm guessing not Chins/Ampertime/Zoom, Etc...
Isn't it great to know they're looking out for our safety?
 
I was looking at the grid-tie system and it says you can't use it during outages which is funny because my primary reason for going solar is that I don't trust our government to keep the power on! :LOL:

Apparently people get sold GT PV without understanding that.

GT PV can be very economical, except in areas where utility rates are cheap. Battery based systems usually cost more than utility, because cost of battery divided by all kWh it can deliver over its cycle life usually exceeds most expensive utility rates. So battery only makes sense to have power when grid is down (at a premium price.)

If you want power for minor loads like phone/alarm/internet, cheap approach is a UPS or a hybrid with PV/batteries/AC input. You can size battery for those small loads and a day or two without power or sun.

If you want to power major loads, it gets expensive. Not just sufficient battery storage, but inverters that can supply starting surge to motors.

What I've done is to install GT PV for the purpose of supplying all my power (net metering), using inverters that perform "frequency-watts" (can be controlled by some battery inverters). Also battery inverters able to supply the house. But batteries barely big enough for one night. With grid down, major loads like A/C and laundry can run during the day (if sunny) because PV output exceeds loads; battery gets charged and excess production is curtailed to match consumption.

You can do that on a more reasonable scale with a hybrid, maybe MPP or Sol-Ark. PV array in the 1 kW to 12 kW range and a small battery, with a few protected loads fed by it.
 
What I did - established the 1st 15panels, 24v battery, inverter, and ATS... all off-grid thru the City Permit process. They required I hire an electrician, and all kinds of hoops. Thru this process I learned a whole bunch on 'codes' for this smaller system and what the inspectors cared about and didn't care about. For example - the battery was completely ignored by the city inspector, didn't care one bit.

Since then, I'm relying on UL/ETL component and the 'home owner may expand his circuits' rule - e.g. in my city, a home owner may add circuits to his house on his own. Permits are encouraged but not required. UL/ETL will help with insurance claims in the event of a fire. And since I learned the relevant codes for my city, I've followed those for all the expansion work - for example all DC wiring >48v has to be in conduit even inside the house.
 
I'm in the UK & frankly I'm staggered by the level of imposed state control for PV & storage in the "Land of the 'free' "
I have been to the UK and it is a very damp country, at least when I was there. Many parts of the US are bone dry low humidity areas. In damp humid countries it's not all that easy to start a fire with just a simple spark. In the US it is very easy for fires to start with a spark. Regulations are usually put in place based on past experience and tragedies.
I suspect that is why the US has so many electrical code regulations vs the UK.
 
Waitaminute, you're saying that if I want to put solar on my out building, I'm Legally Required to run the wires in a NON-Watertight conduit???

In Washington (rocking the 2020 NEC)...
In the rain...

Does that strike anyone else as particularly stupid??

And how many LiFe battery manufacturers are UL listed? I'm guessing not Chins/Ampertime/Zoom, Etc...
What makes you think metal conduit is necessarily non watertight?
 
View attachment 80686F.Y.I…
Not entirely accurate, because NC has adopted the 2020 commercial code, but not for residential…
If he was in the derecho, he was in Iowa most likely, probably 2 hours south of me. If that is the case, he in most likely in Cedar Rapids and Mid American Energy and Alliant control the grid in the area.

I think they are pretty strict on permitting there. In my area, one of the state fire marshall electrical inspectors lives 5 miles away. The only time he has been on my property was when a new meter and service entrance was installed. Legally he can only come on the property if a permit is applied for, so I don't ever apply for one. :cool:

In my county, we don't have zoning and there is no requirement for building permits or inspections in the rural areas of the county. I'm free to do what I want. In the small towns, some have zoning requirements, building permits and inspections but most don't. Pay 15 bucks for a building permit in a small town showing you will be 4 feet off the property line and that's it. Want electricity on the property? Call a licensed electrician and they will take care of it for you including the state inspector. Most electricians here only have the inspector out for a service panel install or a new house as the state code requires it. Adding on to your house? No inspection needed if only extending current electrical system. Most people ignore it, it was a big deal when the state adopted the code back about 12 years ago, not anymore, and I don't think the state legislature in power now wants a nanny state. As for my solar, it is load reduction, no backfeed to grid. If necessary, I could cut my house off the grid and just leave the electrical hookup for the rest of the property- commercial use.

Will all this change down the line? Most likely, the nanny state prefers to control every aspect of your life and existence anymore. It isn't bad here yet, I don't see how some can live in such a state or area. I'd be gone and go live in a cave before submitting to such an existence.
 
What makes you think metal conduit is necessarily non watertight?
I have never seen any type of conduit installed outdoors that is watertight, that is why you install low point drains and install correct wiring for wet locations.
 
I have never seen any type of conduit installed outdoors that is watertight, that is why you install low point drains and install correct wiring for wet locations.
The conduit (on the outside wall of my house) installed by an electrician that runs from the combiner boxes over to the 'entry point' under the house is water-proof. I can attest there is such a thing as waterproof outdoor metal conduit.
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The conduit (on the outside wall of my house) installed by an electrician that runs from the combiner boxes over to the 'entry point' under the house is water-proof. I can attest there is such a thing as waterproof outdoor metal conduit.
View attachment 84272

I think what he means is it's common for moisture to get inside one way or another.
In new construction we've put metal fish tape sections into drill chucks trying to get thru ice in conduit to run electrical wire.
I assume anything going into the ground or installed outdoors is going to end up with moisture in it.
 
I have never seen any type of conduit installed outdoors that is watertight, that is why you install low point drains and install correct wiring for wet locations.
Certainly not submersible, but rain tight is a thing for metal conduit.
Pvc conduit is not watertight either, if installed outdoors.
Code requires ALL outdoor conduit have W certified wiring installed. Pvc expansion and uv degradation is FAR more damaging than the weepage from raintight fittings. I ALWAYS hate to see pvc conduit run outdoors.
 
Ok so let's see, if I have a car battery in my garage, and I attach a battery charger and 12V inverter, what type of certification/listing/NEC compliance are you saying I should require? My current offgrid system is no different. Random batteries laying on the ground and a typical shelf, connected to an offgrid inverter with zero connection to the grid. Can someone please show me what part of the NEC covers this type of system?

If I connect a $100 solar panel to a $200 solar generator to charge my phone, should the inverter circuit be UL1741?

If I have a cell phone plugged into a $20 cellphone charger that uses a small solar cell to operate, do I need it to be inspected?

If you have a UPS device for backup power for your computer, does it need an inspector to come out? Would you consider this an emergency back up power source? If so, why do people not follow NEC for this? They have a whole section on how to connect a back up power system, why would it not apply for these smaller units?

I do not think there is a good definition for offgrid battery back up or solar systems. The number one issue I have found with my local ordinances is that my array has to be under 5ft so that I do not require permits. So I threw them on the ground. There is zero laws stating the difference between 1 solar panel and 10,000W of solar panels lying on the ground.

If I am using the battery charger in my offgrid inverter, you need to use the grounding conductor. Which is stated in every manual. Very important. But running a grounding rod to my offgrid panel? Why? I do not see the utility. I would prefer running it at as a floating system, and I would consider that safer.

NEC says that anything attached to the structure needs to be "listed", with the meaning of "listed" being left to the implementer of NEC but suggested as UL Listed, and pretty much every municipality for which I've looked up the codes and ordinances specify listed as UL Listed. So hanging your inverter on the wall like you do in many of your videos is against code.

I just ignore it, and do everything from the intended spirit of the NEC, but I'm fortunate that my city doesn't seem to care that I have illegal solar.

Having a generator port on your house, but then having a solar trailer is still a legit way to get around it in most places, but some have started to crack down on doing that as well.

I'm in the UK & frankly I'm staggered by the level of imposed state control for PV & storage in the "Land of the 'free' "

I'm 'Merican through and through, but virtually every aspect of most things that we think of American - like freedom, or the Internet - have been leapfrogged and done better. Other than guns (if that matters to the respective person), the UK does freedom better, and has less effective taxes than us too!

We have our unelected fourth branch of government that dictates regulations like this that get adopted and enforced by these arbitrary power trip cities and/or city inspectors.

I'm not a lawyer, but if there isn't some code or ordinance against solar panels for the purpose appearance, there is a legal precedence that solar panels are personal property - like blinds, so a municipality simply cracking down on solar panels being mounted on the roof that deliver a DC circuit and receptacle is something I'm ready to legally challenge if it comes up for me. Then have another generator receptacle, and have the inverter/battery on a wheeled cart not permanently attached to the structure.

As far as I can tell for my municipality, as long as something doesn't penetrate the house I can even put up the solar without a building permit, using conduits on the outside. It's all about what an actual inspector would go with unless you're willing to take legal action though.
 
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Hedges:
The link I copied from another person on this forum talks specifically about detached structures providing power. The State official here made the comment to me that this closed one of the biggest loopholes in the older code. They did it by determining that if the energy is used in your house at 25 volts or above, it has to be listed. I asked about permitted generator hookups that could be used to hook up a system, even if just for power outages. Nope, not allowed. But it is okay to hook up a ragged old piece of crap generator, and use that energy. I suspect that will be dealt with in the future too.

The part that really upset me about the new regulations is about ESS. It slammed the door on DIY stuff, unless you happen to get it tested by an NRTL and certified. They did that by defining it as a system that provides a certain amount of energy. I don't recall the number. But it is very specific, and calls out that all components must be tested as a complete system, and must all comply. After a lot of consideration, I'm now shifting to look at FLA and sell off all my DIY stuff. Or, moving to another City/State.

For those who choose to just do what they like without a proper permit, good luck. I cannot afford to take that risk.

I'm going to stop commenting on this issue, because I have to go battle with insurance companies who don't want to pay claims for damage done in last years derecho that hit with 140mph winds here. A large percentage of my friends and neighbors still don't have roofs repaired from the damage 18 months ago, and most only got a token payment from their insurance. No way! An insurance company would not do that, while their companies make record profits and their CEO's get record bonuses....and they would certainly not deny a claim because your house burned down due to a BMS that caught on fire with your DIY battery! They would just forgive the fact that you didn't take out a permit, and they would act LIKE A GOOD NEIGHBOR.....like the commercials say. Don't worry, you will be in Good Hands. That is sarcasm, in case it escaped anyone. And no, my house did not burn down.
Deleted, answered my own question
 
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