Would you recommend grid tied solar to your friends?

[Atomic Ed]

Me too. I voted for off grid/backup.
The USA is very vulnerable to the grid being disabled for several months.
I can't imagine living without ac in the summertime in Tennessee.

Same for me and I agree with the ac in summer here in Florida its pretty intolerable without it.

 

[Woody]

Would you recommend solar to your friends?​

A: Depends upon the situation.

Insufficient Data: Solar is just one of many possible solutions to an energy need. One must be able to define the need, specify the location the power is needed, specify the environment the energy will be generated and used in, available funds to purchase equipment, who/what will maintain the equipment, etc. Once these parameters are defined then one can do a trade off analysis on what is the “best” energy solution.

Failure to consider these points can result in buying too much equipment, or incorrect equipment that fails to meet the need.

Specify, Analyze, Implement, and Revise as you go will yield a better result than just picking a solution and shoehorning it into a solution.

 

[MullerEnergy-Australia]

$0.50/Watt is a heck of a deal! Wish that was the common price here.

You been get it from about half that again. I've definitely seen A$2,199 for 6.6kW (DC, 5kW AC), which equates to US$0.24/W(DC). But you know what they say about paying peanuts and getting monkeys.

 

[wattmatters]

I've definitely seen A$2,199 for 6.6kW (DC, 5kW AC), which equates to US$0.24/W(DC). But you know what they say about paying peanuts and getting monkeys.

Yeah, I would be very careful with any of those deals. Often bait 'n'switch jobs and massive corners cut. If it's a TV special advertised by ex-cricketers, Facebook special or a door knocker special, stay well away. On the former you can get lucky and the local sub-contractor happens to be half OK but it's a big crap shoot otherwise. If you want to see examples, just head over to the "Crap Solar" facebook page. It's full of entertaining examples of cowboy installations. No offence to real cowboys intended.

 

[BMcL]

Would you recommend solar to your friends?​

A: Depends upon the situation.

Insufficient Data: Solar is just one of many possible solutions to an energy need. One must be able to define the need, specify the location the power is needed,

Many possible solutions ? If the grid goes down, how many solutions will we have ?
No electricity means no natural gas - you need pumping stations.
There will be no gasoline for generators because gas station pumps won't pump.
Wind only works in a few places.
Propane storage is a possibility but a generator uses a lot of it quickly.
IMHO solar is the only thing that will work if the grid is down for a long time.
It's always good to have a source of wood if you need heat and a well for water.

 

[Ampster]

Wind only works in a few places.

Fortunately the companies who invest in wind energy only put wind turbines in those few places that have a lot of wind. Surprisingly, Texas has a lot of wind energy but they did not winterize the turbines like is done further north so those turbines did not work during the Texas freeze.
However to the question of the topic of this thread, I would also recommend a hybrid system, especially in California to give a hedge against erosion of benefits.

 

[Rednecktek]

My dad got grid tie solar installed at his house many years ago when it was almost free after all the rebates and such. His agreement at the time was that the PUD would pay him $0.50/KWh. We did the math over the first year and determined the panels would run out of warranty before they paid themselves off, even after the rebates and tax credits. Solar in Western WA is a sad joke.

 

[mrzed001]

I would recommend real hybrid systems: grid-tie and off-grid (UPS) together (but only with 48V battery)
a) a single unit: Sol-Ark, Deye, Voltronic Infinisolar
b) two separate system together: 1 grid-tie (Fronius, SolarEdge, ...), and one off-grid like MPP Solar (Voltronic Axpert) and its clones (EASun, Must, Growatt, ...)

 

[wattmatters]

b) two separate system together: 1 grid-tie (Fronius, SolarEdge, ...), and one off-grid like MPP Solar (Voltronic Axpert) and its clones (EASun, Must, Growatt, ...)

This is essentially what I have.
11kW PV + 10kW AC grid tied Fronius system and a 2.2kW PV + 4kW off-grid AIO inverter with 18kWh SLA battery. Plus a 3kW inverter generator.
We have mains water supply and only one small 5,000 litre tank if desperate. One day when all other jobs are done I'll look into ~10-20,000 litres of water storage. We have plenty of rain here and lots of roof to collect it.

 

[Symbioquine]

Solar in Western WA is a sad joke.

That isn't always true, but it is really important to do the math for a specific location ahead of time...

I just built a off-grid system north of Seattle for ~$10K with 14 KWh of storage and 2 KW of panels which I expect to break even compared to a grid connection in a little less than 10 years with steady-state usage of ~3 KWh/day. This isn't some "trench a mile" kind of scenario either - the houses on all sides of the property have grid power. It just works out because the grid transformer install would be ~$5K and the local utility bills a connection fee of ~$50/month so even though they only charge $0.11/KWh, the on-grid effective cost if one intends to use very little power would be astronomical >$1/KWh even when amortized over >12 years.

Even with all that said, I would be very cautious recommending the same strategy to others in the immediate area unless they are highly competent DIY'ers who also place a high value on independence and tinkering.

EDIT: Yes, I realize the original question was specifically about "recommending grid tied solar", but I still think this is an important anecdote.

 

[schmism]

to Grid tie or not is going to heavily depend on local/municipal buy back price.

My opinion is that the best solution is 70-90% rooftop coverage. You never sell back. And you have battery backup.

For everyone I talk to about my solar, i always dissuade from grid tie only, no battery backup, your 10Kw of panels on your roof are useless if the grid is down installs.

 

[MurphyGuy]

Whether I recommend someone get a solar system depends almost entirely on their electrical usage and cost associated with it.

My buddy up the road is 70 years old, never married, no children, and lives alone.. He lives in a very nice house, but he's alone and doesn't do much in the way of using lots of power.

His electric bill is $38 a month.. He asked me if he should get solar and I told him it would take too long for it to pay the investment back.

Me on the other hand, our bill was a minimum of $120 a month..

 

[wattmatters]

For everyone I talk to about my solar, i always dissuade from grid tie only, no battery backup, your 10Kw of panels on your roof are useless if the grid is down installs.

There are 3 million such systems in Australia and even with low feed-in credits they make perfect sense. Grid outages are not really that common. They get more common as you go out to regional and rural areas like where I am but even so it's not all that bad.

And most of those 3 million systems will have a payback in the 3-6 years range.

Not only does the local tariff regime matter, the local regulations on what can be connected to the grid and various system limitations which apply, but importantly, how much such systems cost to install. Grid tied solar PV is the USA is so expensive. It's double the cost of here or more. Our regulatory system seems to be far more uniform than in the US.

Then of course you have to have suitable roof or space to install array(s) and expect to be in the home long enough. And have a load profile which can make good use of the energy, this latter factors becomes increasingly important as feed-in credits reduce.

 

[Hedges]

Grid-tie PV costs $.05/kWh for hardware. Labor if not DIY adds about $0.10/kWh +/-

Commercial batteries cost $0.50/kWh, not including battery inverter or labor.

I had grid-tie only for 17 years before adding battery. That is more of a convenience/luxury than a necessity. It lets PV keep A/C and everything else running during day. Battery just make the island grid alive and carries smaller loads at night; most kWh don't go through the batteries. Compared to what GT PV would cost me today (not 17 years ago), battery backup doubled or tripled cost of system.

NEM 3.0 as proposed makes GT PV probably not worth it, since I work during the day and don't have much need for power when generated. Maybe if sized for pool pump, which I would then run daytime not night. Batteries to store my PV generated power for when home aren't worth it (unless DIY for $0.05/kWh) because cost is high as peak utility rates.

 

[svetz]

You been get it from about half that again. I've definitely seen A$2,199 for 6.6kW (DC, 5kW AC), which equates to US$0.24/W(DC)....

I suspect U.S. tariffs aren't helping with that, lowest I've seen on new solar panels is $0.47/W.

... I would also recommend a hybrid system, especially in California to give a hedge against erosion of benefits.

Interesting in light of what @Hedges said about NEMs 3.0 earlier. I'm in Florida and think I have a good net metering agreement; but at $8/kW my 7.6 kW array would cost $60/month, but my average credit is only $48/month.

...His agreement at the time was that the PUD would pay him $0.50/KWh... Solar in Western WA is a sad joke.

50¢/kWh? I suspect a math error or typo as that seems to be too phenomenally true to be good.

Consider at an average insolation of 4 and a 20 year lifespan each watt of solar panel produces 1W x 4 x 365d/yr x 20 yrs/lifetime ~= 29 kWh. At $0.50/W that's a value of $14.6 per watt installed. The point in the OP is an installed cost greater than $2.90/W with energy costs at $0.10/kWh has no return on investment.

...I just built a off-grid system north of Seattle for ~$10K with 14 KWh of storage and 2 KW of panels which I expect to break even compared to a grid connection in a little less than 10 years with steady-state usage of ~3 KWh/day. This isn't some "trench a mile" kind of scenario either - the houses on all sides of the property have grid power. It just works out because the grid transformer install would be ~$5K and the local utility bills a connection fee of ~$50/month so even though they only charge $0.11/KWh, the on-grid effective cost if one intends to use very little power would be astronomical >$1/KWh even when amortized over >12 years.

Mixing Energy Storage in can crush the economics but I can see how it's cost-effective in your situation.

At 11¢/kWh your DIY knowledge solar seems like it saved you a ton of $! Let's look at it separating out the storage.... For example, let's say you spent 50¢/watt on the panels, then that's $1000 investment in the 2kW array. Assuming an average insolation of 4, the array would generate (2 kW array x insolation of 4 x 365d/yr x 20yr/life) = 58 MWh of power over it's lifetime, at $0.11 that's a value greater than 6x your investment in the panels.

EDIT: Yes, I realize the original question was specifically about "recommending grid tied solar", but I still think this is an important anecdote.

Me too! Thanks for sharing!

...My buddy up the road is 70 years old, never married, no children, and lives alone...

Really good point. Just to tack onto it, some people (old or otherwise) literally can't live without power due to medical conditions. A small renewable system (e.g., solar generator) can often be perfect for them.

 

[Symbioquine]

At 11¢/kWh your DIY knowledge solar seems like it saved you a ton of $!

To be clear, 11¢/kWh is what the utility charges for the power they sell - which is a great price on its own, but for my specific scenario is swamped by other factors.

For example, let's say you spent 50¢/watt on the panels, then that's $1000 investment in the 2kW array. Assuming an average insolation of 4, the array would generate (2 kW array x insolation of 4 x 365d/yr x 20yr/life) = 58 MWh of power over it's lifetime, at $0.11 that's a value greater than 6x your investment in the panels.

That's a nice way to look at the payback reward/time-frame for PV panels, but is only meaningful if one has the means to capture/use all that power.

Me too! Thanks for sharing!

My pleasure!

 

[jsmetalcraft]

No. I voted off grid as my first build is an RV build where I was told it could not be done. After three years I proved them wrong along and with no black water. Now I am building for a house system. I started to dabble DIY this summer. I goofed up and power company came knocking. Threaten to disconnect me. I have no interest to back feed., just supplement because they are now charging another cent if you go over a set point each month. To be honest power here is so cheap hard to pay back in less then 10 years. .086 winter .10 to .11 kwh summer. DIY fees for design, permits and inspections are something I refuse to do, $12-1400 to the Government. Then pops up the newer all in one units with grid coupling. I told the Power company more then one way to skin a cat. I hope these units work as they state and would be IMO the only way I would recommend a system without going full off grid. other then maybe a small critical load system that is off grid..

 

[Browneye]

When GT solar rolled out in our neck of the woods - about 6-8 years ago, the energy leases were all the rage. I quickly saw thru that, no thanks.
At that time most of the commercial installing companies were charging $4 to $6 a panel watt for systems. Doing some reasonable research at the time showed I could install myself for under $2. Prices are even less today. So the only way it made sense to me was to buy the hardware and install it. Hire an electrician to connect to the grid.

I had a couple of major challenges however - one was my 100A electrical panel - it's about $1200 for a new one. At least one solar company was going to pony up the cost for the re-panel for the deal. That should tell you what kind of profit-model they were working with. I have room for maybe a 5-6kw system, so for a 'tier-clipper' that was potentially do-able.

The second challenge was the intention to move after retiring, just a few years off. And calculating payback on the investment, it was way past when we would already be gone. So it just didn't make good financial sense, even with rising energy costs.

And we're energy hogs - pool and pond pumps, AC, computers and big-screens all around, lots of lighting - the power company sends those silly usage comparison reports and says we use twice as much as our neighbors. But I PAY for it so STFU, right?? LOL

My next place, whether I buy or build, will have a solar generation backup, so that grid utility would be a minor expense. And we won't have a pool again. And I don't need a grid-tie system to benefit. Plus I can be self sufficient in case of grid down.

The next challenge is internet data off grid, and so we're waiting for this Starlink thing to be available. Could well be the answer to our remote dwelling opportunity. Oh, and our own well and septic system, and enough land to be able to fence out the neighbors and have a big dog. We are so sick of our zero lot line we could scream.

I don't generally recommend GT PV - do your own math, see if it makes sense for you. One of our neighbors just installed a Tesla roof - the power-tiles thing. It's cool, but some quick research generally says choosing this option means you have more money than brains. LOL

I'm using this forum to learn system building for when that day comes.

 

[MurphyGuy]

I suspect U.S. tariffs aren't helping with that, lowest I've seen on new solar panels is $0.47/W.

I paid 62 cents a watt for my original Solar World panels. Then paid 50-something cents a watt for my Q-cells.

47 cents for a non-Chinese panel would suit me just fine.

At the moment, panels aren't the problem, galvanized steel pipe has tripled in price. It went from an expensive $6/foot to a stupidly expensive $18/foot.

Told my friend that instead of putting in a ground mount system like I did, it would be cheaper to build a barn and mount it to the roof.

 

[AndyRonLI]

So my raw cost of 6500 watts installed was 22K (and that included a chunk of re-roofing)
That was $3.38 a watt. High but not too outrageous. With Fed and State (NY) tax credits, that came down to around 10K or $1.54 / watt.
My payback (at least at current rates) will be around 10 years. So with the subsidy, it really is a no brainer, assuming you have the cash to pay for the contractor install up front. Based on what I see, in addition to the electric cost reductions, I have likely added at least $10K to the value of my house. So with the subsidy, it really becomes more or less a freebie.