Would you recommend grid tied solar to your friends?

[wattmatters]

So my raw cost of 6500 watts installed was 22K (and that included a chunk of re-roofing)
That was $3.38 a watt. High but not too outrageous.

This is what I mean about solar PV in the US being so expensive.

A system of that size in Australia would cost between US$0.50-0.80 per watt. Fully installed by accredited solar installers, all approvals done.

 

[Browneye]

They are marking up 300 percent plus labor for high profit.
The same country where it costs six grand for a mini-split.
Technicians in a service truck = big $$.

 

[Hedges]

... then that's $1000 investment in the 2kW array.

Out of $10,000 total for the system.
That's where I favor larger PV array, possibly allowing smaller battery. It can make sufficient power under lower light conditions.

PV is said to have lower capital cost than other power plants (at utility scale), although that may be based on peak kW not kWh/day. But especially for home use, where we compare to retail not wholesale power rates, we can afford to size the array to supply peak loads and let unused production go to waste other times. System needs to limit battery charge rate to what's acceptable. That could be an array able to supply 0.5C for lithium, or regulated charge current for even smaller lithium battery or lead-acid.

A system of that size in Australia would cost between US$0.50-0.80 per watt. Fully installed by accredited solar installers, all approvals done.

Can you get new PV panels, grid-tie inverters, rack mounts, and balance of electrical for < $0.50 - $0.80/W? Leaving something for installation labor?

I suppose that may be doable, but have to go cheap on PV and inverters. Or, I'm looking at retail prices I see. Large volume wholesale could be much cheaper.

But our high retail prices for grid power, like up to $0.50/kWh, make higher cost of installed PV systems more palatable.

They are marking up 300 percent plus labor for high profit.
The same country where it costs six grand for a mini-split.
Technicians in a service truck = big $$.

At one point, workers compensation insurance for a roofer was 100% of wages. That's likely not over-priced, rather due to loss rates.
It is possible that PV installers have a lower premium, if lower losses in that industry (different "demographics" and degree of risk-taking? Not as much pressure for fast work?)

The whole high cost of living thing here means one can live well, if not like a king, working for competitive wages and then rejecting throw-away consumerism and/or DIY the high cost items.

 

[curiouscarbon]

Many possible solutions ? If the grid goes down, how many solutions will we have ?
No electricity means no natural gas - you need pumping stations.
There will be no gasoline for generators because gas station pumps won't pump.
Wind only works in a few places.
Propane storage is a possibility but a generator uses a lot of it quickly.
IMHO solar is the only thing that will work if the grid is down for a long time.
It's always good to have a source of wood if you need heat and a well for water.

yeehaw!

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

yeehaw!

I've looked into this. It's difficult to get going, difficult to get consistent results, difficult to make sure the gas is clean enough so you don't destroy the engine, etc. I might give it a try again though.

 

[curiouscarbon]

I've looked into this. It's difficult to get going, difficult to get consistent results, difficult to make sure the gas is clean enough so you don't destroy the engine, etc. I might give it a try again though.

great points. difficult operation

after watching the video i kinda concluded that it feels like more of a "party trick" than a long term reliable and easy to maintain option. sap! sap! everywhere! hats off to them for trying, haha.

vroomyeehaw!!!!

wood is not photovoltaic but it is solar powered

 

[AndyRonLI]

Out of $10,000 total for the system.
That's where I favor larger PV array, possibly allowing smaller battery. It can make sufficient power under lower light conditions.

PV is said to have lower capital cost than other power plants (at utility scale), although that may be based on peak kW not kWh/day. But especially for home use, where we compare to retail not wholesale power rates, we can afford to size the array to supply peak loads and let unused production go to waste other times. System needs to limit battery charge rate to what's acceptable. That could be an array able to supply 0.5C for lithium, or regulated charge current for even smaller lithium battery or lead-acid.



Can you get new PV panels, grid-tie inverters, rack mounts, and balance of electrical for < $0.50 - $0.80/W? Leaving something for installation labor?

I suppose that may be doable, but have to go cheap on PV and inverters. Or, I'm looking at retail prices I see. Large volume wholesale could be much cheaper.

But our high retail prices for grid power, like up to $0.50/kWh, make higher cost of installed PV systems more palatable.



At one point, workers compensation insurance for a roofer was 100% of wages. That's likely not over-priced, rather due to loss rates.
It is possible that PV installers have a lower premium, if lower losses in that industry (different "demographics" and degree of risk-taking? Not as much pressure for fast work?)

The whole high cost of living thing here means one can live well, if not like a king, working for competitive wages and then rejecting throw-away consumerism and/or DIY the high cost items.

So 16 of the LG 370s (which 2 years ago were pretty good) run to about $7500 retail. Add in $200 each for 16 inverters and you are at 10 grand before you add in the rack, the enphase box down in the basement, the wire.... So retail cost on the hardware is likely 12K So I would imagine the installer paid $7k to $8K for the hardware. They did all the paperwork with the town including a permit application with an engineers stamp. There were 2 or 3 guys here for a day and a half setting up the hardware with an electrician for a half day. The sales guy wants something for the effort, the shop rent needs to be paid, workman's comp insurance etc. I doubt that a solar install gets that much of a discount on hardware, as they are unlikely to inventory much. Did these guys make a profit? I hope so, that's how capitalism works.

 

[MurphyGuy]

I've looked into this. It's difficult to get going, difficult to get consistent results, difficult to make sure the gas is clean enough so you don't destroy the engine, etc. I might give it a try again though.

great points. difficult operation

after watching the video i kinda concluded that it feels like more of a "party trick" than a long term reliable and easy to maintain option. sap! sap! everywhere! hats off to them for trying, haha.

vroomyeehaw!!!!

wood is not photovoltaic but it is solar powered

As part of my prepping activities, I built a gasifier out of stainless steel 55 gallon drums. It will never rust out.

It is not at all difficult to make it work, but what is difficult is using it to run an engine that has a varying load.

If you build one, make sure the pyrolysis bowl is NOT just steel.. it needs to be cast out of a refractory material or it won't get hot enough for a quality burn.

Wood gas is useful for a lot of things but for some reason, running an engine with it seems to be the one application everybody focuses on. Hooking it to my 5500 watt Coleman generator, I found it was troublesome because the loading of the generator keeps changing as household appliances turn on and off. One action causes it to run lean and stall, another action causes it to run rich and stall..

However, there's a solution that worked flawlessly.. Instead of running the house directly, I sent the generator into the Sunny Island battery inverters. The Sunny Islands allow me to set the number of amps they will draw from the AC Charging source, and when set, the load on the generator remains constant until the battery is charged.

Running an engine on wood gas DOES require that the gas be thoroughly cleaned.. And I mean clean! Don't underestimate it with a "that's good enough" attitude or you'll destroy your engine. The best way to scrub the gas is through a mechanical filter, then bubbling it up through a set of PVC towers (short pipes) filled with water. We use aquarium bubble stones.. a whole bunch of them! Use a white pillow case or other linen type fabric to pass the gas through. How long it takes for the white cloth to "stain", will give you a good idea of how clean your gas is.

The water also makes great fertilizer for plants after its been clouded up by the gasses.

Gassifiers are best used to make cooking fuel, but can also be used for water heating. Here in Michigan, we get plenty of sunshine in the summer so in a long term grid down event, we wouldn't need the gassifier in the summer.. However, the winters are horrible for solar generation, and as luck would have it, the gassifier runs much better in the winter than it does in the summer. The colder the ambient temperatures, the easier it is to condense the gas and clean it, and the denser the gas becomes, which means more energy per given volume.

During the spring and fall when we're chopping and splitting wood for the wood stove, we get a lot of little pieces and chunks that end up piling up around the work area. We separate those little pieces out and dump them into a 275 gallon IBC tote. When the tote is full, we put the cap on and put it in the back storage area. I currently have 4 totes full, which is probably enough wood to run the gassifier for several winters.

With the exception of pine, the type of wood you use means almost nothing, and even pine works fine if you make sure it is bone dry.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

However, there's a solution that worked flawlessly.. Instead of running the house directly, I sent the generator into the Sunny Island battery inverters. The Sunny Islands allow me to set the number of amps they will draw from the AC Charging source, and when set, the load on the generator remains constant until the battery is charged.

Yes, that would have been my goal. That's what I currently do with my vegetable oil powered generator.

but can also be used for water heating. Here in Michigan, we get plenty of sunshine in the summer so in a long term grid down event, we wouldn't need the gassifier in the summer.. However, the winters are horrible for solar generation, and as luck would have it, the gassifier runs much better in the winter than it does in the summer. The colder the ambient temperatures, the easier it is to condense the gas and clean it, and the denser the gas becomes, which means more energy per given volume.

I already use a very efficient wood burner coupled to a 3000L water tank, generating wood gas to then burn it wouldn't make much sense in my set-up.

 

[Browneye]

The whole high cost of living thing here means one can live well, if not like a king, working for competitive wages and then rejecting throw-away consumerism and/or DIY the high cost items.

My life story... ?

Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do with out.

Living in so-Cal has been a dream. Well, maybe not a dream, but surely the sun shines nearly every day.

 

[wiseacre]

Well, maybe not a dream, but surely the sun shines nearly every day.

Sunshine here has been infrequent and fleeting.

I think - "Move South" should be one of the poll's options

 

[wattmatters]

Can you get new PV panels, grid-tie inverters, rack mounts, and balance of electrical for < $0.50 - $0.80/W? Leaving something for installation labor?

It includes everything for a fully functioning grid-tied PV system.

Everything supplied and fully installed including labour, sign-off by licensed solar accredited electrician and all approval documentation completed with the local distribution company. They also manage applicable federal solar rebates. Obviously if the main circuit board needs an upgrade that will be extra and if you want to add your own consumption monitoring then add a bit more. Sometimes there are "deals" to include monitoring.

For US$0.80-1.00/W you'll be getting LG/REC/Sunpower panels and Enphase micro inverters / Solaredge+optimisers.
For US$0.60-78/M you'll be looking at Q-Cells/REC/Trina/Longi/Jinko panels with Fronius/SMA string inverters.
For US$0.50/W you'll be looking at Trina/Longi/Jinko/Canadian panels with Huawei/Goodwe/Solis string inverters.

After solar PV is installed there is a requirement for retail metering to be upgraded to a smart meter (if required, many already have them). Usually this is either a free upgrade (mine was free) or incur a modest cost like $70-100 or something like that. These are digital meters which automatically upload interval data to the network operator and parse out grid imports and exports and any dedicated off-peak controlled loads. Self consumed solar PV is not recorded by the retailer's meter (and is why some decide to have their own consumption monitoring).

The solar installation industry here is efficient and very competitive. It's the only example I can think of where buying technology and home appliance / building related stuff is significantly cheaper here than in the USA. Usually it's the other way round.

 

[AndyRonLI]

It includes everything for a fully functioning grid-tied PV system.

Everything supplied and fully installed including labour, sign-off by licensed solar accredited electrician and all approval documentation completed with the local distribution company. They also manage applicable federal solar rebates. Obviously if the main circuit board needs an upgrade that will be extra and if you want to add your own consumption monitoring then add a bit more. Sometimes there are "deals" to include monitoring.

For US$0.80-1.00/W you'll be getting LG/REC/Sunpower panels and Enphase micro inverters / Solaredge+optimisers.
For US$0.60-78/M you'll be looking at Q-Cells/REC/Trina/Longi/Jinko panels with Fronius/SMA string inverters.
For US$0.50/W you'll be looking at Trina/Longi/Jinko/Canadian panels with Huawei/Goodwe/Solis string inverters.

After solar PV is installed there is a requirement for retail metering to be upgraded to a smart meter (if required, many already have them). Usually this is either a free upgrade (mine was free) or incur a modest cost like $70-100 or something like that. These are digital meters which automatically upload interval data to the network operator and parse out grid imports and exports and any dedicated off-peak controlled loads. Self consumed solar PV is not recorded by the retailer's meter (and is why some decide to have their own consumption monitoring).

The solar installation industry here is efficient and very competitive. It's the only example I can think of where buying technology and home appliance / building related stuff is significantly cheaper here than in the USA. Usually it's the other way round.

So what would be the current retail cost of an LG panel in the 370ish watt size for you

 

[Woody]

Sorry to rain on the parade but a couple issues that need to be clearly noted.

First, I’m not familiar with any power company that allows diy systems to be grid tied. So off grid or grid tied assuming you’ve got to have solar. Also if off grid, what are your local planning department rules? What will they allow or not approve? There’s insurance provider issues too.

Second, most grid tied systems are provided by a solar firm. Users really don’t have much say in what vendors/hardware is used. Lastly the bulk of these solar grid deals are great financial deals for the sellers. Read the fine print and do your due diligence. Grid tied systems are nice but why do you want the system?

We’re back to understanding ones power needs before you open up your check book and/or make a recommendation.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Sorry to rain on the parade but a couple issues that need to be clearly noted.

First, I’m not familiar with any power company that allows diy systems to be grid tied. So off grid or grid tied assuming you’ve got to have solar. Also if off grid, what are your local planning department rules? What will they allow or not approve? There’s insurance provider issues too.

Second, most grid tied systems are provided by a solar firm. Users really don’t have much say in what vendors/hardware is used. Lastly the bulk of these solar grid deals are great financial deals for the sellers. Read the fine print and do your due diligence. Grid tied systems are nice but why do you want the system?

We’re back to understanding ones power needs before you open up your check book and/or make a recommendation.

With the caveat that the above is a US-centric view and does not apply/fully apply to other countries.

 

[Ampster]

First, I’m not familiar with any power company that allows diy systems to be grid tied.

I took out a building permit as owner builder and obtained a PTO from PG&E in California. I consider that DIY. I guess it all depends on where you are standing or define DIY? The solar panels and inverters had to be new and be on the list of items at the California Energy Commission. The list is very comprehensive. I hired various portions of the installation out to contractors and contract labor.

Second, most grid tied systems are provided by a solar firm. Users really don’t have much say in what vendors/hardware is used.

As noted above, the only requirement in California is the CEC approved hardware list. There is no required vendor list.

 

[Ampster]

With the caveat that the above is a US-centric view and does not apply/fully apply to other countries.

As I noted, it may not apply to the US either.

 

[Woody]

With the caveat that the above is a US-centric view and does not apply/fully apply to other countries.

Very true, I‘m in the USA. Love to hear about other users in other countries and how their power providers approach alternate energy/grid tied systems!

Good Call!

 

[Browneye]

I took out a building permit as owner builder and obtained a PTO from PG&E in California. I consider that DIY. I guess it all depends on where you are standing or define DIY? The solar panels and inverters had to be new and be on the list of items at the California Energy Commission. The list is very comprehensive. I hired various portions of the installation out to contractors and contract labor.

As noted above, the only requirement in California is the CEC approved hardware list. There is no required vendor list.

^^ This. AFAIK - unless they changed the requirements drastically.
You take your plans to the building department in your city/governing agency for permitting.

And I think you need a licensed electrician to connect to the grid, and a special meter. And sufficient cable size supplying grid power.

I did a ton of research on this and while it can be a bit complicated, it seemed fully do-able.

 

[Ampster]

I think you need a licensed electrician to connect to the grid, and a special meter.

I hired a licensed electrician to install a new service panel and wires to the weather head. I bought the service panel and wired the subpanels. I already had a smart meter on my old service panel. PG&E actually swung new overhead wires, and removed the old overhead wires, made the connection to the new service panel, and moved the meter to the new service panel. The electrician and myself did all the wiring behind the meter.