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XW Pro unable to sell back to main panel?

n2aws

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Hi!

The short explanation: I'm trying to enable "sell" to the grid, for net zero with an XW pro. I can't seem to find the right combination of settings to make this happen.

The long, for context:

I have an XW Pro, and MPPT 60/150, an MPPT 80/600, an insight home, a wattnode modbus, and 6 48v EG4 batteries connected to the insight for closed loop communications.

The EG4 batteries are a recent change, and previously I had 600ah of AGM batteries. With the AGM batteries, I was able to leave the XW Pro in 2stage charging. The MPPTs in 3stage, and when it went to float, it would send the excess to the critical loads, and when that was zeroed, it would "sell back" to the main panel and curtail output as it approached grid zero (I can't sell back to the utility). This worked fine. Batteries would stay at 54v, in float, and zero the grid.

With the change from AGM to EG4, I've enabled the closed-loop communications and now use SOC instead of voltage. I've used the same settings that worked with AGM, with no luck. When the batteries get to full charge, the charge controllers go to float, and then stop producing power. I've got a spreadsheet where I've documented every combination of the following, and tried them without success:

Grid support: Enabled, and disabled
Grid Sell: Enabled and disabled
Grid support SOC: 80%, 99%, and 100%
MPPT charge mode: standalone, primary, secondary, echo

The above produces too many combinations to list.. but, I've actually tried *every* configuration possible between those settings. Obviously, I'm missing something that is needed. Is anyone successfully using "closed loop" communications, and still able to successfully sell excess power back to the main panel (but not to the grid, using the wattnode to measure the energy at the utility mains)
 
This just popped up for me. Sorry no one responded. Were you able to get this straightened out?

How about disabling SOC control and going back to voltage control? Maybe just for a test.
I'd try disconnecting the battery communication as another test.
 
I just commissioned XW-pro with 7680 watts of solar and 3 Hab 7.5 kw batteries. with closed loop SOC control and cannot load shave grid support or sell. This is unacceptable, I have spent $40,000 on this system and now I find out it doesn't work. Sounds like a class action law suit.
If Schneider is listening and watching fix it!!!!! because I will get a Lawyer.
I spent the last three days trying every conceivable configuration and have not got it to work at all. The only thing I haven't tried is the 2018 region code. All testing was done with the IEEE1547-2014 region code.
When I called Schneider the agent immediately had me turn off SOC control. which is not closed loop control any more. It seemed to some what work, but still has all the trouble with imbalanced loads, always using 80 to 100 watts at the grid never pushing current out to the grid. Schneider must know this SOC closed loop doesn't work. My Question, is when are they going to have a firmware build that works? ????

I purchased all my equipment from the Alt-E Store,
I was going to buy the EG4 batteries but the salesman talked me into spending $4000 more to get closed loop battery communication. Sounds like I was taken for a ride. Don't get me wrong I like the Kilovault batteries, I think they are well built, but the firmware on both sides of this supposed closed loop needs work. For one thing they tell you to calibrate your battery watt-hours by fully charging the battery to 56.4 volts and ignore the high battery cutout alarm. What they don't tell you is the alarm is set in the BMS and communicated to insight but can't be reset by insight. You have to shut down the battery, power it up with no load "breaker open" and press the power on for 3 seconds and again for 10 seconds to rest the BMS. Otherwise the BMS continually throws a high SOC cut out error that can't be reset by insight. This is far from closed loop communication. The BMS will reset the fault if the battery voltage drops below 54.4 volts. But for the life of me how do you discharge a battery when you can't get the inverter out of fault mode and to run to discharge the battery.
This build was thrown out the door with out the needed testing and Schneider is responsible to fix it.
 

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I just commissioned XW-pro with 7680 watts of solar and 3 Hab 7.5 kw batteries. with closed loop SOC control and cannot load shave grid support or sell. This is unacceptable, I have spent $40,000 on this system and now I find out it doesn't work. Sounds like a class action law suit.
If Schneider is listening and watching fix it!!!!! because I will get a Lawyer.
A class action lawsuit, by definition requires a "class"
Meaning more than 1 person.
I spent the last three days trying every conceivable configuration and have not got it to work at all. The only thing I haven't tried is the 2018 region code. All testing was done with the IEEE1547-2014 region code.
When I called Schneider the agent immediately had me turn off SOC control. which is not closed loop control any more. It seemed to some what work, but still has all the trouble with imbalanced loads, always using 80 to 100 watts at the grid never pushing current out to the grid. Schneider must know this SOC closed loop doesn't work. My Question, is when are they going to have a firmware build that works? ????

I purchased all my equipment from the Alt-E Store,
I was going to buy the EG4 batteries but the salesman talked me into spending $4000 more to get closed loop battery communication. Sounds like I was taken for a ride. Don't get me wrong I like the Kilovault batteries, I think they are well built, but the firmware on both sides of this supposed closed loop needs work. For one thing they tell you to calibrate your battery watt-hours by fully charging the battery to 56.4 volts and ignore the high battery cutout alarm. What they don't tell you is the alarm is set in the BMS and communicated to insight but can't be reset by insight. You have to shut down the battery, power it up with no load "breaker open" and press the power on for 3 seconds and again for 10 seconds to rest the BMS. Otherwise the BMS continually throws a high SOC cut out error that can't be reset by insight. This is far from closed loop communication. The BMS will reset the fault if the battery voltage drops below 54.4 volts. But for the life of me how do you discharge a battery when you can't get the inverter out of fault mode and to run to discharge the battery.
This build was thrown out the door with out the needed testing and Schneider is responsible to fix it.
How is this Schneider's responsibility?
You purchased the components, you are responsible for the settings.
I agree, for testing, remove the communication cable. Once you get it working, then add back in BMS communication. It's just about removing variables when testing/going through set up.

Here's a thread where I posted some assistance to another member in getting the settings correct.

Post in thread 'Something I built DIY back in 2000 - my path from Trace to Xantrex to XW Pro inverters' https://diysolarforum.com/threads/s...to-xantrex-to-xw-pro-inverters.11/post-660372

Also, what is your goal? Covering your loads in the main panel or selling to the grid?
 
A class action lawsuit, by definition, requires a "class"
Meaning more than 1 person.
You don't think more than one person is having these problems.
How is this Schneider's responsibility?
You purchased the components, you are responsible for the settings.
I agree, for testing, remove the communication cable. Once you get it working, then add back in BMS communication. It's just about removing variables when testing/going through setup.

Here's a thread where I posted some assistance to another member in getting the settings correct.

Post in thread 'Something I built DIY back in 2000 - my path from Trace to Xantrex to XW Pro inverters' https://diysolarforum.com/threads/s...to-xantrex-to-xw-pro-inverters.11/post-660372

Also, what is your goal? Covering your loads in the main panel or selling to the grid?
You Ask: "How is this Schneider Electrics Responsibility?"
Well, they had a representative touting the closed-loop Integration of the Kilovault Hab4 battery in a YouTube video.

Kate Collins - Channel Sales Manager - Schneider Electric

This was narrated by a Schneider Electric Salesperson.

Eric Bentsen- Senior Sales Application Engineer · Schneider Electric

This was narrated by Schneider Electrics App Engineer.

This is an outright misrepresentation, Collusion, and Fraud.

Amy From The Alt-E Store

Hi there! Yup, that's me. KiloVault is a separate company from AltE, but very closely related for now. We/they are expanding the distribution chain these days. I've been talking to Will about sending him one of the smaller 12V KiloVault batteries to review, but silly logistics have gotten in the way. Unfortunately, our small marketing budget doesn't have enough to send him one of the KiloVaults HABs. Obviously, I like the product, so take what I say knowing I may be biased. (I will say I pride myself in being very honest about my opinions).

Is the real reason they are not sending Will a Hab 4 because he will take it apart, I think so.

If you are looking to save money, building your own is the way to go. Will has fantastic resources for doing that. If you are looking for a reliable, responsibly backed pre-built unit that is cost competitive with similar products, the HAB is certainly worth taking a look at. Every unit is tested before leaving the warehouse, and we have received excellent feedback from our customers who have been using them for over a year now.

Let me know if you have any specific questions about the KiloVault HAB, happy to answer them.

You Say in the Above POST "Obviously, I like the product, so take what I say knowing I may be biased. (I will say I pride myself in being very honest about my opinions)."

I purchased 3 Kilovault Hab 4 Batteries, 16 Q.PEAK DUO XL-G10-480BF (480 Watt Bifacial) panels and the equipment to install a single XW-pro. I spent $26,338.11 + another $13,162 on the installation. I am currently trying to get this installation to work as advertised in your Video's on your website and You-Tube. I have spent many hours on the phone with Roy Dyngen and the techs a Schneider Electric. The tech's at Schneider claim they don't support the Kilovalut Hab 4 battery in this closed loop mode of operation.

My Question to you is how can you with a straight face say "I will say I pride myself in being honest about my opinions." This Kilovault Hab 4 Product doesn't work as advertised.

Currently I am having to run this integration in open loop mode. The documentation on the Hab 4 is very Poor at best. There is little to no functionality in the Vault Habit phone app that is helpful to the user. No way to see or set BMS parameters, no way to see the messages between the Hab and the inverter. No diagnostic tools what so ever. Wow the only thing you can do with the Habit app is see the batteries SOC and put them in standby.

I was able to get the Modbus communications to work and it shows up in the insight home web browser but the only thing it does is up date the display. The communication to the inverter does not function when the SOC state of charge Function is enabled in the insight battery settings. Without that functionality the Closed Loop is not complete and is of no use. The system runs in Open Loop mode, I paid $4000 extra dollars to get this advertised functionality. I am Very Frustrated at this point and feel like I was duped by ALT-E store salesman.

You can Say well we don't have responsibility for this but when there are Videos by ALT-E, Schneider Electric, and Kilovault: Representatives Explaining how it works on You-Tube videos, Sounds Like one of two things, Either you all lied about the completeness of the integration and it doesn't work as Schneider claims or it does work and all the tech's I talked to have not a clue how to instruct a Electronics Engineer with over 40 Years of experience how to make it work.

Below is a recorded conversation with Schneider Tech Support on the issue of Closed Loop Integration with the Kilovault Hab4 Battery system.
and here is the text of that conversation.
and a recording as a playable file but you will have to unzip it. Its a .ma4 audio file

In conversation trying to make things work this conversation was exposed.

Schneider Tech
… It's just here in the notes that the SOC is disabled Ahm, the state of charge control is it still enabled or disable?

Customer:
No I Ah. When I called the other day they told me to take it out of state of charge, but if you take it out of the state of charge it's not gonna work in the way I want the system to work. I want it to work in the state of charge. A! And it’s advertised to work in state of charge. So I cannot seem to get it to work in state of charge, so that’s what we are trying to do. Is in the configuration of, In the inverter setup, you go to configuration.

Schneider Tech:
Ok issue is that! Yea Ok. The issue is the following. Ah! Ah! The Kilovault integration Ah! Ah! AH! I Mean Kilovault integration ???. The battery system integration has not yet been approved by Schneider Electric. So in this case we will recommend to stay on voltage. Ah! Ah! I Know that Kilovault Ah! Ah! Claims or states that their battery systems are compatible with Schneider, but at this moment we haven't approved that yet.

Customer:
So! When is that going to happen or is it going to happen?

Schneider Tech:
Ah! for the moment my recommendation is to use Ah Ah the battery is, Ah! relying on voltage to control the battery relying on voltage.

Customer:
So is that still closed loop or is that open loop?

Schneider Tech:
You will be open loop.

Customer:
Uh! See I paid them 4,000 extra dollars to get closed loop communication.

Schneider Tech:
Yes but unfortunately, Ah! The! The! The integration has not been approved by the engineering team.

Customer:
So is there any date on when this is going to occur?

Schneider Tech:
Ah! We don't have a time frame for that.

Customer:
Sounds like I was sold to bill goods!!!....

Make a judgment of your own from the above information.
 

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Hi all,

Apologies. I originally posted this, and then checked back multiple times a day for a while.. then I kinda gave up, assuming it fell to the 30th page or something. I didn't see the replies until today.

So updates: Schneider support told me that SOC-based zero sell may be coming in a firmware shortly. (they said this a few weeks ago)
They've released a new firmware (2.04)

The release notes for it say: "Added SoC Based Enhanced Grid Support"

I got the firmware installed yesterday. Today, I was hopeful, but here we are approaching 4:00pm.. The batteries went to 100%, and then the solar output was curtailed, just as it was with the old firmware. It's not using the solar DC to support the critical loads, zero sell back to the main panel, or anything.

I'll try again tomorrow with SoC control disabled. I hate the idea, as that was the purpose in buying the batteries.. for closed lop communications and having the BMS's tell the inverter what to do to maintain them optimally.

I'll give another update tomorrow, when the batteries reach 100%. (correction, just realized I'll be camping this weekend. I'll leave things as-is, and will report back monday)
 
Hi all,

Apologies. I originally posted this, and then checked back multiple times a day for a while.. then I kinda gave up, assuming it fell to the 30th page or something. I didn't see the replies until today.

So updates: Schneider support told me that SOC-based zero sell may be coming in a firmware shortly. (they said this a few weeks ago)
They've released a new firmware (2.04)

The release notes for it say: "Added SoC Based Enhanced Grid Support"

I got the firmware installed yesterday. Today, I was hopeful, but here we are approaching 4:00pm.. The batteries went to 100%, and then the solar output was curtailed, just as it was with the old firmware. It's not using the solar DC to support the critical loads, zero sell back to the main panel, or anything.

I'll try again tomorrow with SoC control disabled. I hate the idea, as that was the purpose in buying the batteries.. for closed lop communications and having the BMS's tell the inverter what to do to maintain them optimally.

I'll give another update tomorrow, when the batteries reach 100%. (correction, just realized I'll be camping this weekend. I'll leave things as-is, and will report back monday)

OK, here's what I've found:

#1) With SOC enabled, and grid support set to 99%, The same thing occured. MPPT's went to absorb and then float. solar generation was curtailed to 0 watts.
#2) I've noticed that my EG4 batteries never show 100% on the BMS "device" in the insightlocal UI. When I connect to the batteries directly with the OEM software, all 6 batteries show 100% SOC. (But again, the schneider UI shows 99%)
#3) I confirmed my batteries are all top balanced, and no active balancing is occuring (I thought maybe one of them was balancing, and as such.. wasn't reporting "100%")
#4) In the schnieder UI, I noticed that the BMS "state" cycles between "SelfCheck" and "Soft-Starting", so now I'm thinking this may be a BMS or communications issue.

I think what I'm going to do now, is 2 different tests.

#1) Set grid support SOC to 98% and see if it curtails the solar, or starts supporting the loads and sending back to the grid.
#2) (This will be a separate test from above). I think I'm going to disconnect the communications between the different packs. Set them all to the "master" pack ID via the dip switches. Move the rs485 connections individually, 1 at a time to each pack. I want to see if any *single* pack reports something other 99% SOC, and "Soft-Starting" to insight.

At the moment, I'm starting to think that maybe there is a bug in the communications between the LifePower4's, and insightHome.
 
Troubleshooting complete:

For the first test, setting the grid support voltage to 98% didn't change anything. However, setting it to 80%, started selling battery power back to the grid. It's too soon to tell if the solar will be curtailed again once the batteries actually reach 80%. I'll update tomorrow with those results.

For the second test.. I disconnected the "daisy chain" links from each pack so none of them were communicating with each other. I then set them all to modbus address "0" (all switches down)

I then moved the rs485 cable connected to the insight to each individual battery, and left it there until the insight UI updated.
They all report 99% back to insight. They all swap between soft-starting and selfcheck. checking each one individually with the BMS software from the OEM.. they all report 100% SOC.

I then put everything back to it's original state. (modbus addresses, reconnected the comms cables, power cycled each battery)
 
However, setting it to 80%, started selling battery power back to the grid
@n2aws Is the thought that solar will maintain in the batteries in the high 90s for overnight use while supplying grid and load side? The 80% mark will just stop grid sell?
 
@n2aws Is the thought that solar will maintain in the batteries in the high 90s for overnight use while supplying grid and load side? The 80% mark will just stop grid sell?

Theoretically, yes. The 80% is just a test, and seems to behave differently than when it's set at 99% and 98%.

My daytime generation far exceeds what my critical loads uses, so the idea behind 80% (for testing) is to see if the batteries will charge to 100%, switch the MPPT's to absorb and then float, and see if it continues exporting to the main panel. This sounds logical in my head, but reading it sounds confusing. Let me know if I need to clarify?
 
No, that makes complete sense in my head also. I just asked you another question in another thread.
 
Did you ever get this resolved? I went through the same headache and stumbled upon a solution. Let me know if you still need help.
 
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