XWPro Need Help With PLS

[AGDorsum]

Our XW Pro supplies the garage only which has minimal loads. The goal was to gain familiarity with operations and settings prior to adding whole house to load panel. Settings are included below. Hoping those with XW Pro experience can offer suggestions to better dial-in parameters. Been fun trying to get the inverter to use excess solar to charge battery and to Peak Load Shave. I see an RPi in my future.

Hopefully someone can spot where my issue is for PLS to function.

Configuration is grid tied, AC-Coupled, NEM 1.0 agreement since 2013, California Rule 21-2018.

Current equipment consists of the following:
20 CS 250w panels w/Enphase M215 micro inverters
1 Envoy-S w/meters
1 XW-Pro 6848-NA (2.04.00bn29)
1 Mini-PDP
1 Insight Home (1.18-BN 41)
1 EG4 Indoor Wallmount (280Ah) (additional DIY 280Ah battery to be added)
1 EG4 Chargeverter (emergency use)
No DC Solar
No Generator

Short Term Objectives:
Excess AC solar used to recharge battery and supply house loads before exporting to grid.
use PLS to curtail/limit power from grid 24/7 or until batteries are depleted to 50% (guess).
Grid is connected but only used [if solar/battery are not working.

 

[zanydroid]

Can’t help with settings but note that peak load shave, if you run in a grid parallel mode, is possible for the POCO (presumably PG&E) to detect esp outside of solar production hours; you do not have interconnect approval for this, and you are not supposed to be able to get this equipment combination (XW and PowerPro battery) approved as an ESS in California

OTOH the XW Pro is on some smoking deals (which I hope you got), and you may even break even on it in a year if you get slapped by the POCO down the line

 

[400bird]

If you've got experience, a raspberry pi with Node Red or Home Assistant makes it easy.

My system XW and AC coupled solar have been installed for years. Supposedly new firmware should allow it to automatically charge from excess solar, but in my 10 minutes of trying it didn't, so I went back to the Pi and Node Red.

 

[GXMnow]

Since I updated my XW-Pro to 2.04 it will start a "Recharge" when the voltage drops below the "Grid Support Volts". It would not do that with the older firmware. This is better, but still not anything close to "Smart Charge" for AC coupling. Even when I have 2,000 watts of extra solar flowing backwards through the XW-Pro, it just sits there and will not go into charge if the battery is above Recharge and Grid Support voltage settings. If you set the Recharge Volts above the Grid Support Volts, it still stops Grid Support at 0.5 volts ABOVE the Recharge Volts setting. But at least now, that WILL trigger it to start charging. But if the battery has enough capacity and charge from the day before, it won't drop this ow and won't charge.

As @400bird mentioned above, we have ways of controlling it. I am doing it with a Triangle Engineering Nano-10 PLC instead of the Raspberry Pi. What are you comfortable programming? At first, I just pre set the charge current and just had a timer send it "Bulk Charge" at 9 am each day. It would charge about 10 KWHs each day and then grid support all night. Now my PLC monitors the grid export power and adjusts the charge current to keep it exporting about 20 to 60 watts while the sun is shining.

 

[AGDorsum]

Ordered an RPi4 so recharging from excess solar can be controlled.

Peak Load Shave is now my focus. Have read a ton of possible solutions but none have worked for my configuration. Has to be a settings conflict but I can’t figure it out and the documentation doesn’t explain (m)any of the interactions/conficts/overrides between parameters. Hopefully someone on the forum has a similar system and PLS is working.

 

[400bird]

Peak load shave isn't something I've messed with. If I have battery capacity available, I was it to cover all loads, not just part of it.

 

[AGDorsum]

One of my goals is to have PLS limit (zero) importing of grid power 24/7 or as long as I have enough energy in the battery. I am trying to have the XW Pro function similar to off-grid but with grid connected as power sink for over production and ‘generator’ for outages and low production periods.

 

[GXMnow]

Are you also selling any power back to the grid side AC-1?

What I found is that Grid Sell takes over from load shave. If you just turn on grid sell and set it to zero amps, it will cover all the loads at the output side, even if Load Shave is turned off. This happens because it has to invert to drive all the load on the output side before it can get the input current down to zero amps. So for what you are trying to do, I think "Grid Sell" set to zero amps might be perfect. Maybe even kick it to a 1/4 or 1/2 amp if there are some loads in the main panel.

When my timer blocks Grid Sell, then I have the Load Shave run anything over 0.1 amp in my backup loads panel. I try to run on battery as much as possible. I just let it use grid power in the main panel for 2 hours each morning to keep the utility happy. Here is my "Grid Support" settings page.


My "Maximum Export (Sell) amps" is also constantly adjusted by my PLC. When I took this snap it was sending 1.9 amps back to my main panel to cover loads and keep my grid power at about -20 watts. If a load turns on, the current meter sees it and the PLC sets the new export current. The XW-Pro can sort of do this, but you need to use a "Watt-Node" power meter for it to work. I am using a pair of cheap PZEM power meters from Amazon.

 

[400bird]

I've got peak load shave off and the XW covers loads in the critical loads panel with a constant 100-200 watts coming from the grid, but this may be due to my poorly balanced loads, L2 is almost always loaded 200 watts more than L1

 

[GXMnow]

I've got peak load shave off and the XW covers loads in the critical loads panel with a constant 100-200 watts coming from the grid, but this may be due to my poorly balanced loads, L2 is almost always loaded 200 watts more than L1

My imbalance get's worse than that. Right now, I have 12.3 amps going to L1 in the main panel, while only 6.1 amps are going to L2. And on the backup panel, it is just as bad, but in reverse. L1 has only 1.6 amps of load while L2 is at 7.6 amps. This is mostly due to my son's PC on L2 in the backup panel, and the clothes dryer and dishwasher are both running now on L1 in the main panel.

 

[AGDorsum]

Here are my current Grid Support settings.



I also changed my Recharge voltage to 53 (0.5 above Grid Support) per suggestion above while the sun was out. Battery was at 52.56 by the time solar stopped so I wasn’t able to see if charging would occur. Blocked charger for tonight, tomorrow is another day.

I have sell amps set to 0 and Export blocked for 23hrs 59mins. These only apply to DC, AC-coupled PV still push excess to grid. Load shave enabled, set to ‘0’ and timer set to 24hr according to the manual. I have no need to push any current to AC1 other than the AC-coupled excess after battery is charged.

From what I can see PLS should be working. I am stumped

 

[400bird]

Peak load shave is meant to help lessen grid demand chargers. For example, so utilities charge different amounts based on your peak consumption. In this case, there's big money to be saved if you can keep you peak below a specific number.

I don't know of any residential power providers that use a peak demand charge.

If I have enough capacity in the battery, I might as well cover all my loads. If I don't have enough, I'll let PGE carry all the loads.

You've said peak load shave doesn't work, what is happening? And what is your battery voltage at the time?

Have you tried turning peak load shave off?

 

[robbob2112]

United power here in Denver offers it... in exchange for cheaper power off-peak they charge higher in peak... residential

 

[GXMnow]

I also changed my Recharge voltage to 53 (0.5 above Grid Support) per suggestion above while the sun was out. Battery was at 52.56 by the time solar stopped so I wasn’t able to see if charging would occur. Blocked charger for tonight, tomorrow is another day.

I have sell amps set to 0 and Export blocked for 23hrs 59mins. These only apply to DC, AC-coupled PV still push excess to grid. Load shave enabled, set to ‘0’ and timer set to 24hr according to the manual. I have no need to push any current to AC1 other than the AC-coupled excess after battery is charged.

From what I can see PLS should be working. I am stumped

Do you have SOC control enabled? This is assuming voltage control only. The SOC reported by my JK-BMS is useless.

Your "Recharge Volts" and "Grid Support Volts" are probably too high. The battery voltage must be higher than those numbers by 0.5 volt for it to enable the grid support functions. I have mine set all the way down to 49 volts for grid support, and recharge at 48 volts.

Leave sell enabled. Maybe try it for a 2 hour block and see if it does what you want. If you set it to zero amps, it will still force the XW-Pro to use battery power to run all of the load at the output as it tries to zero the AC-1 grid power. And it is pretty smart. When your AC coupled solar makes more power than your loads, it will stop inverting and sit at virtually zero battery current. And the extra solar will still export to grid.

The only problem here is it will NOT start a charge on it's own when set like this. It DC charges from a solar charge controller, but if you want to charge from extra AC coupled solar, you need an external controller.

 

[AGDorsum]

PLS is currently working . These settings worked for me - SOC Enabled, Recharge 50v, Recharge SOC 50%, Grid Support Enabled, Grid Support Voltage 50, Grid Support SOC 45%, Sell Amps 0, Timer set to 12am start and stop. PLS Enabled, Shave Amps 0, Timer set to 12am start and stop. Flipped the solar breaker off, PLS started covering loads. No idea which setting change did the trick but as long as it works I am happy. Off to the next battle.

 

[AGDorsum]

Can’t help with settings but note that peak load shave, if you run in a grid parallel mode, is possible for the POCO (presumably PG&E) to detect esp outside of solar production hours; you do not have interconnect approval for this, and you are not supposed to be able to get this equipment combination (XW and PowerPro battery) approved as an ESS in California

OTOH the XW Pro is on some smoking deals (which I hope you got), and you may even break even on it in a year if you get slapped by the POCO down the line

@zanydroid I am dense, can you explain what you mean in your first sentence? I don’t know what running in grid parallel and esp mean. The XWPro is on the CA approved list, my local permit center looked at the documentation for the EG4 wall mount and compared it with EG4 LL (on the list) and gave me an exception. I cannot get the CA rebate but still get federal.

 

[zanydroid]

@zanydroid I am dense, can you explain what you mean in your first sentence? I don’t know what running in grid parallel and esp mean. The XWPro is on the CA approved list, my local permit center looked at the documentation for the EG4 wall mount and compared it with EG4 LL (on the list) and gave me an exception. I cannot get the CA rebate but still get federal.

Grid parallel : inverter is on and providing power in electrical engineering/electrician definition of parallel. Both ACs connected to your load

Esp= especially

XWpro is on the approved list but you also need a paired battery/inverter combination to pass the official code requirements for California. The only combination that EG4 got certification for is 18kpv and their current generation batteries. Neither EG4 nor Schneider pursued paired listing for XW and EG4 batteries

It sounds like your AHJ cut you some slack relative to the official rule, or just doesn’t understand them. In that case, as long as you get an interconnect agreement with PG&E they will not get upset when they detect the unapproved storage inverter. (You are required to get approval at your interconnection account level. If you already had an interconnection approved ESS, then they can’t really catch you easily if at all. If you had a solar grid tie only interconnection then it is easy to catch as soon as you micro export when sun is down. This can happen even if you turn on zero export mode)

 

[AGDorsum]

Thank you @zanydroid , I ‘think’ I am ok but will ask the permit dept if their approval means anything at the state level or with PG&E. Doubtful any sway with PG&E, I can check with them depending on response from the city.

 

[400bird]

United power here in Denver offers it... in exchange for cheaper power off-peak they charge higher in peak... residential

Having peak and off peak rates isn't the same thing as a peak kW demand charge.

Thank you @zanydroid , I ‘think’ I am ok but will ask the permit dept if their approval means anything at the state level or with PG&E. Doubtful any sway with PG&E, I can check with them depending on response from the city.

From my experience, it does not. I passed my local inspections, then got hassled by PGE for my battery choice.

 

[zanydroid]

From my experience, it does not. I passed my local inspections, then got hassled by PGE for my battery choice.

Interesting, I was not aware that PGE checks the 9540 and CEC status of the batteries.

What was the combo you had, and what was their complaint?

 

[zanydroid]

Thank you @zanydroid , I ‘think’ I am ok but will ask the permit dept if their approval means anything at the state level or with PG&E. Doubtful any sway with PG&E, I can check with them depending on response from the city.

I’m not sure you want to invite the city to recheck their approval, because otherwise you might be able to slip by.

Unless you’re looking to do an equipment swap or something within a return window

Here’s a thread of mine where I’ve been collecting info about a universal kind of battery (UL 9540 DC ESS) that is allowed to be used with any UL 1741 inverter, that’s a possible option if you get major hassled

Z

Thread 'Finally found a UL9540 DC ESS - SimpliPHI 6.6'

May 11, 2024

Every couple of months I do another round of Googling to see what the progress is on UL9540 Edition 3. I finally found a 48V DC ESS:

Haven't had a chance yet to look through the manuals / listing certificate. Here is a screenshot of the press release. (Hot off the press - less than 2 weeks old)

/

• zanydroid
• Replies: 32
• Forum: DIY Solar General Discussion

• 

 

[ElectricIslander]

Discover AES batteries are also UL9450 listed.

 

[zanydroid]

Discover AES batteries are also UL9450 listed.

Yes, the later messages in that (not very long thread) covers Discover AES

 

[GXMnow]

Can you also be legal with lead acid batteries?

 

[zanydroid]

I haven’t looked into lead acid carefully. There used to be exceptions for it. There are at least three separate code books that govern this (NEC, NFPA 855, International Residential code), so even if one says it is OK you might have missed another one that says it’s not OK.