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You can put the lugs back on the EVE batteries - CAREFULLY.

NOTE - below is not a critisism - I would probably have done the same if I couldn't have gotten a new cell under warranty.

I wonder with the repair the OP did if there is some resistance where the terminal is bolted back on that could cause a problem down the road. For example, when it broke off originally if it left a burr on the metal that doesn't let it fully seat and get good contact and over time it causes heating and an issue? You certainly can't just torque it down like you would on something you can backstop with another wrench.

btw - from a suggestion earlier - a Vevor micro-tig welder goes for only $200 ... that is DC verse AC/DC ... so not sure it would work here since you would normally use AC current for aluminum. - least that is what I read - one of the welders in the group would know better..... For an AC/DC version it is closer to $500~$700 - I would have to break a lot off to make that worth while and also learn to do the fix without exploding the battery.
I doubt that I added any resistance on the terminals when I reinstalled them. Firstly they darned near snapped back into place so that says that it's fit is solid. Secondly I machined a brass washer that fit over the lug's welded area (plus a tad) so it has a lot of surface area between the lug and the post in the battery - and brass conducts a tad better than aluminum.

TIG - I have a Miller Dynasty TIG welder and can do the welding but I just don't want to take any chances on throwing a bunch of heat at the lug/post area. I also don't trust myself doing "micro TIG" work. I can stick .062 chromoly tubes together just fine but aluminum is a different animal it doesn't like to play with me nicely all the time. My skills aren't quite that skill full when it comes to Al.

Judging by the shape of the welds on the tabs they're either doing sonic or maybe laser (guessing). If they're doing TIG, they're not using filler material and are just melting the lugs onto the end of the electrode.
 
If the welds are weak, the post series resistance may also be greater.

I don't like thread helical coil inserts. I have had some bind up when trying to loosen screw.
I prefer just tapped aluminum thread with a Grub screw.
"Welds are weak" - not going to cause any resistance change. It's a fused metal so there's not going to be any increase. It's one solid piece with a tender, probably heat effected, ring of contact.
 
I doubt that I added any resistance on the terminals when I reinstalled them. Firstly they darned near snapped back into place so that says that it's fit is solid. Secondly I machined a brass washer that fit over the lug's welded area (plus a tad) so it has a lot of surface area between the lug and the post in the battery - and brass conducts a tad better than aluminum.

Aluminum is about 2X more conductive than brass.

Aluminum is 61% as conductive as Copper.
Brass is 28% as conductive as Copper.

The brass washer is only providing added conductivity from the screw threads to the top of the lug. This conductivity is dramatically lower than the critical conductivity between the terminal and the bottom of the lug. A good fit as you describe is encouraging, but a conductive assembly paste or adhesive might improve the connection.

I didn't see if you mentioned it, but did you check internal resistance like with a YR-1035?

TIG - I have a Miller Dynasty TIG welder and can do the welding but I just don't want to take any chances on throwing a bunch of heat at the lug/post area. I also don't trust myself doing "micro TIG" work. I can stick .062 chromoly tubes together just fine but aluminum is a different animal it doesn't like to play with me nicely all the time. My skills aren't quite that skill full when it comes to Al.

A good and consistent Al welder is a rare find.
 
Aluminum is about 2X more conductive than brass.

Aluminum is 61% as conductive as Copper.
Brass is 28% as conductive as Copper.
Very interesting information. Good to know. I've always been under the impression that brass was similar to Copper.
I stand appreciatively corrected.
The brass washer is only providing added conductivity from the screw threads to the top of the lug. This conductivity is dramatically lower than the critical conductivity between the terminal and the bottom of the lug. A good fit as you describe is encouraging, but a conductive assembly paste or adhesive might improve the connection.
I wish I'd done a conductive paste when I repaired them but I'm not going to mess with them now that they're back up in pack, on the wall.
I didn't see if you mentioned it, but did you check internal resistance like with a YR-1035?
No, I didn't.
A good and consistent Al welder is a rare find.
Extremely! I know a couple and a buddy of mine and I bitch at him in envy. - and to really stick the knife in, he welds ambidextrously - just lays little perfect beads down.
 
WOW that is truly scary - 5mm depth of thread, barely enough to hold a 6mm screw - and in soft aluminium. Think I might have rigged up a kind of stronger version of the conical spring used in AA battery holders plus some brass or copper sheet for contact, and a compression screw to clamp the lot on top of the post? For copper try one of those copper tube pipe clamps flattened out - useful cheap source
Bit ugly but maybe possible and better than amateur workshop bodger with a hand drill, depends on what current you expect to draw continuously 50A maybe ok - 100A hmm?
 
It's been postulated that EVE doesn't put anything on the cell terminals. They don't put studs on nor do they put holes in the terminals.

If that's the case, then I'm not at all surprised that we're seeing different quality posts on terminals. There could be 100's of companies in the pipeline between EVE and the retailers that are doing their own thing with terminals.

The 2020 version of the EVE 280 cells had holes in the terminals. There were quite a few posts about stripping the threads, mostly due to A) not knowing the torque specs and B) not using a torque wrench. I used my 1/4" digital torque wrench on both set of EVE cells (LF280N and LF280K).
 
The cell is now contaminated with aluminum shavings and moisture and will fail. The liquid is a blend of ethylene carbonate, dimethyl carbonate, vinylene carbonate and LiPF6 salt.
As someone who had a pleasure of doing some very water sensitive chemistry in past life I say not necessarily.

First, the OP reports the gooey layer beneath. This may very well be some rubber that provided sealing and didn't allow water vapour ingress into the cell. If this is the case and the Op hasnt introduced any water containing stuff in there that could slowly diffuse (like grease that contains water) it may be fine.

Also for anyone that wants to repeat this. It may be a good idea to use grease with guaranteed no water content. For example Dow Corning High Vacuum Grease - not ideal for milling anything, but it will catch chips and definitely does not contain even a trace of water.

Then the hole should be closed ASAP. Definitely not left open for minutes (or even worse hours or overnight). Really OCD people may want to flow argon slowly around and into it while taping and before closing up.

IDK if thread locker is guaranteed to be water free. I'd probably prefer not to use it relying on the leftover grease for sealing the threads.

This way one can prevent Ingress of enough water vapour to cause problems most likely.
A lot of people don't know how much force is actually applied with as "little" as 6nm.
Also torque wrenches are really inprecise instruments. I set my to 5Nm just in case.

Weight isn't that much of an issue for a 'house bank' (it is a factor in mobile applications like motorhomes, caravans and EVs obviously), and the heat toleration of LYP versus LFP makes it the far better choice for my local conditions (where summer temps can be weeks on end of 40-45C plus, and sometimes even much higher...) LFP really suffers under those conditions, with charge throttling required, and it shortening their service life (by a considerable margin...)
Wow, I didn't know these LYP cells even existed. They are very cool. I think they deserve to be more popular.

Has anyone explored TIG welding, even tacking, broken terminals? Heat control
Right, and this is why microTIG machines exist, I suppose - they heat a nearly microscopic area -
Micro tig only works well on alloys that can be welded with DC.
Aluminum can be DC welded with helium.

However, having some experience tig welding aluminium (including tiny stuff in a magnesium-aluminium and aluminium alloys) I'd not do it. There is a reason they use a laser and not Tig/Mig. That reason is less overall heating. The problem with aluminium is you need to blast it with enough current to remove oxides and also it is excellent heat conductor. With tiny parts the biggest danger is: "it's not puddling, it's not puddling, oh shit, the whole thing has melted! ". There is an extremely fine balance between "it's not puddling" and "crap, the entire thing has melted". In my opinion a tig torch is simply not concentrated enough(up to 300hz I tried at least). That whole piece would get pretty hot. Drilling and tapping is the correct method (unless one has a laser welder).

That looks like a good weld, why are a lot of the ones we see looking cracked?
We can't really tell without seeing a cross section or at least the bottom as well as the top.

You need to find a guy like this:

see if he can attach them back
Making boxes like these is one of the most satisfying ways to "get into" tig welding aluminium. It is 99% material prep(and having something to lean your hand on, and do the movement without switching the torch on first) . It is not that difficult... Welding good looking corner joints is a very different skill than making small structural welds.
 
@Luk88 - great responses!
The last couple of weeks I've been doing some aluminum work. Trying to stick .045" 3003 together is a challenge! I'm quite astute at sticking the pieces together and then making it pretty with a flap wheel.
I won't show you the back side of that long blended curve. It's ugly (and hidden). :fp2A4318BC7-A641-4A50-9F19-E72D21578781_1_105_c.jpeg
 
As someone who had a pleasure of doing some very water sensitive chemistry in past life I say not necessarily.

First, the OP reports the gooey layer beneath. This may very well be some rubber that provided sealing and didn't allow water vapour ingress into the cell. If this is the case and the Op hasnt introduced any water containing stuff in there that could slowly diffuse (like grease that contains water) it may be fine.

Also for anyone that wants to repeat this. It may be a good idea to use grease with guaranteed no water content. For example Dow Corning High Vacuum Grease - not ideal for milling anything, but it will catch chips and definitely does not contain even a trace of water.

Then the hole should be closed ASAP. Definitely not left open for minutes (or even worse hours or overnight). Really OCD people may want to flow argon slowly around and into it while taping and before closing up.

IDK if thread locker is guaranteed to be water free. I'd probably prefer not to use it relying on the leftover grease for sealing the threads.

This way one can prevent Ingress of enough water vapour to cause problems most likely.

Also torque wrenches are really inprecise instruments. I set my to 5Nm just in case.


Wow, I didn't know these LYP cells even existed. They are very cool. I think they deserve to be more popular.




Aluminum can be DC welded with helium.

However, having some experience tig welding aluminium (including tiny stuff in a magnesium-aluminium and aluminium alloys) I'd not do it. There is a reason they use a laser and not Tig/Mig. That reason is less overall heating. The problem with aluminium is you need to blast it with enough current to remove oxides and also it is excellent heat conductor. With tiny parts the biggest danger is: "it's not puddling, it's not puddling, oh shit, the whole thing has melted! ". There is an extremely fine balance between "it's not puddling" and "crap, the entire thing has melted". In my opinion a tig torch is simply not concentrated enough(up to 300hz I tried at least). That whole piece would get pretty hot. Drilling and tapping is the correct method (unless one has a laser welder).


We can't really tell without seeing a cross section or at least the bottom as well as the top.


Making boxes like these is one of the most satisfying ways to "get into" tig welding aluminium. It is 99% material prep(and having something to lean your hand on, and do the movement without switching the torch on first) . It is not that difficult... Welding good looking corner joints is a very different skill than making small structural welds.

Can't believe I watched that whole friggin' video!

I know zero about welding, and that was fascinating.
 
I doubt that I added any resistance on the terminals when I reinstalled them. Firstly they darned near snapped back into place so that says that it's fit is solid. Secondly I machined a brass washer that fit over the lug's welded area (plus a tad) so it has a lot of surface area between the lug and the post in the battery - and brass conducts a tad better than aluminum.

TIG - I have a Miller Dynasty TIG welder and can do the welding but I just don't want to take any chances on throwing a bunch of heat at the lug/post area. I also don't trust myself doing "micro TIG" work. I can stick .062 chromoly tubes together just fine but aluminum is a different animal it doesn't like to play with me nicely all the time. My skills aren't quite that skill full when it comes to Al.

Judging by the shape of the welds on the tabs they're either doing sonic or maybe laser (guessing). If they're doing TIG, they're not using filler material and are just melting the lugs onto the end of the electrode.
You’d need really high amperage TIG with pulsing option to have any change welding the terminals. I’d guess 400A might be on the low end starting point. Alternatively some sort of capacitor discharge TIG to get enough high power density.

I did attempt to add huge capacitor bank to tig… hf arc initiates the arc and capacitor bank provides short but high current pulse. Worked ”almost” on aluminium as the high current pulse was bit too intense and it had a habit of blowing the melted material away as fast as it melted.
 
400A? I think you added an extra 0 there. I weld .250" with only around 115A on a Dynasty 400 TIG setup. The terminals, where they're attached are about .050" thick - and I'm only using about 70A at 95 hertz to weld pieces of .045" thick sheeting together right now on another project.
 
400A? I think you added an extra 0 there. I weld .250" with only around 115A on a Dynasty 400 TIG setup. The terminals, where they're attached are about .050" thick - and I'm only using about 70A at 95 hertz to weld pieces of .045" thick sheeting together right now on another project.
You need really high (pulsed) current to start the puddle before entire terminal gets too hot. Maybe 0.1sec pulse at 400A and long time (10-60s) to cool off before next tack.
Attempting to weld the terminal at ”normal” current heats up the entire terminal and melts the plastic shrouding around.
 
You need really high (pulsed) current to start the puddle before entire terminal gets too hot. Maybe 0.1sec pulse at 400A and long time (10-60s) to cool off before next tack.
Attempting to weld the terminal at ”normal” current heats up the entire terminal and melts the plastic shrouding around.

I agree with this. The quicker, the better. Slow will build up too much heat.
 
Didn't know about this, was looking at Eve's for a friend down south, but that is a definite turnoff...

Much prefer the 'holes' that just take a bolt as done with my Winstons- hell you can pick the cells up with those....

View attachment 243281
On my 400Ah ones, thats a M10 bolt!!! (if you manage to break one of THOSE off- your first name is Clark, and you wear a red cape and a blue suit with a big S on the front!!!)
I got those big old nylon cased M8 CALB 100ah cells, I thought about selling them, but compared to new cell durability, I'll hang on to them for sure. They might be heavy, but you can over-torque the crap out of those big bolts and there's no issue. I even dropped one like 3 years ago on a concrete garage floor and its totally fine. Definitely better for a mobile application, that's for sure.
 
Love the PPE equipment, eye protection, gloves to protect hands.
Love the elaborate fixturing, hand positioned for laser weld.

Some info from video.

1) Terminal remains cool enough to hold with bare hand.
2) No additional aluminum feeder wire added to weld, just melt base and terminal interface together.

Guess the every twentieth unit quality control test for weld strength was not video recorded. :rolleyes:

 
I can't believe that the welding of the terminals in that video doesn't involve the use of a jig.

At least with TIG welding, a homogenous weld (no filler) isn't considered a strong weld, at least compared to one that uses filler.
 
I think TIG would impart too much heating to terminal post. You have copper and aluminum foil layers below the terminal that are spot welded to aluminum terminal inside base. Any significant heating will be conducted down the foil layers into the cell laminate wrap and melt the plastic separator layers likely shorting out the cell.

You might be able to tack TIG with time to cool off between tacks.
 
From the linked datasheet:

View attachment 243462

Not at all. 4-8Nm has been in the EVE datasheets for years and is about right for a 5-6mm thread. The terminals in question are 6mm threads.

The bigger issue is the internals. It's rarely about stripping the threads or breaking a stud, it's about the supporting structure inside the cell can't handle high torque. These things are rectangular mush boxes with paper thin Aluminum housings. You shouldn't twist the crap out of them.

Most terminal issues are caused by folks that don't use a torque wrench.

Given that these terminals can be tightened/loosened using a second wrench on the terminal block to prevent transfer of the torque to the terminal base, there's zero excuse for what has happened in this thread especially given the OP's claimed experience and expertise.

Lessons learned:
  1. Human torque wrenches are not accurate. Use an actual torque wrench.
  2. Counter the torque with a second wrench on the terminal block
Thanks for this. I just got 16 eve batteries. I'll me ordering a small torque wrench. Any recommendations on an affordable yet accurate wrench?
 
Thanks for this. I just got 16 eve batteries. I'll me ordering a small torque wrench. Any recommendations on an affordable yet accurate wrench?
why, just take a Phillips screwdriver and simply turn the bolt until it stops. the bolts have a spring washer, you turn it until the spring is tight and the feeling very obviously hits a wall in turning torque, thats it done. even if you mistake that, the screw driver will cam out before you can put too much force in it.
 
The batteries I have, have welded studs for terminals. The op was about the studs breaking off apparently pretty easily. I think given the small torque specs I could hand tighten the nuts beyond that limit without much effort. I'm guessing your batteries are different.
 
The ones that shear off are the dual hole terminals. Not such a concern for regular m6 studs I don't think, but torque wrench is best practice.
 
The batteries I have, have welded studs for terminals. The op was about the studs breaking off apparently pretty easily. I think given the small torque specs I could hand tighten the nuts beyond that limit without much effort. I'm guessing your batteries are different.
yes i have the same batteries and installed bus bars three times so far without any lug breakage due to lack of planning forward.
again, the cells should come with m6 bolts which have a 10mm hex head with Phillips as well.

you will not overtighten them, you actually will likely undertighten them. a phillips screwdriver will achieve 3-5nM before it just cams out. the danger there is the wanting to press down into the terminal with the screwdriver to prevent cam out, but just simply dont, you should feel right where the screw stops and stretch starts, that's all you really need to go to.
honestly the 6nM spec seems way too high, thats the recommended torque for a regular bolt into steel threads.
 

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