.

.

775 said:

I was about to drop $500 on a Phoenix 48/1200 but put that on hold in search of something with a little bit more power for less than $500. I can't find anything on amazon or ebay that is a legit LF inverter for under $900!

How is Victron, who is normally the most expensive option, the least expensive option in this particular arena?!

Click to expand...

Must have cheap LF inverters (for EU at least).
But I would wonder if they do not have an LV version.

Quality side ... Victron is much better.

mrzed001 said:

Must have cheap LF inverters (for EU at least).
But I would wonder if they do not have an LV version.

Low Frequency Power Inverter|EP3300 TLV Series Low Frequency Pure Sine Wave Split Phase Inverter Charger (AC:110/220V 1-6KW)|Power Inverter, Solar Inverter, Online UPS, Offline UPS

This split phase inverter EP3300 TLV series, capacity from 1KW-6KW, DC 12V/24V/48V, it’s applicable to 110VAC\120VAC markets demands, which matches AC 110VAC\120V single phase, or two phase 220V\240V; In LCD display, you can set output voltage, frequency, charging voltage, charging current to...

www.mustsolar.com

Quality side ... Victron is much better.

Click to expand...

Do Victron make a true LF inverter didn’t think so

mrzed001 said:

Must have cheap LF inverters (for EU at least).
But I would wonder if they do not have an LV version.

Low Frequency Power Inverter|EP3300 TLV Series Low Frequency Pure Sine Wave Split Phase Inverter Charger (AC:110/220V 1-6KW)|Power Inverter, Solar Inverter, Online UPS, Offline UPS

This split phase inverter EP3300 TLV series, capacity from 1KW-6KW, DC 12V/24V/48V, it’s applicable to 110VAC\120VAC markets demands, which matches AC 110VAC\120V single phase, or two phase 220V\240V; In LCD display, you can set output voltage, frequency, charging voltage, charging current to...

www.mustsolar.com

Quality side ... Victron is much better.

Click to expand...

Why “ must “ you have LF inverters ?

Will just did a video on the 1200W 12V version:

It is a LF inverter with a large transformer. Short term peak output is listed as 2200W.

775 said:

I was about to drop $500 on a Phoenix 48/1200 but put that on hold in search of something with a little bit more power for less than $500. I can't find anything on amazon or ebay that is a legit LF inverter for under $900!

How is Victron, who is normally the most expensive option, the least expensive option in this particular arena?!

Click to expand...

That is a nice little inverter.

I doubt they make any money on that market segment.
I guess that having this product in their suite stops any of their competitors from getting a toehold at this edge of the matrix.

Browse said:

Will just did a video on the 1200W 12V version:

It is a LF inverter with a large transformer. Short term peak output is listed as 2200W.

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81+JTuz21sL.pdf

Click to expand...

I believe that's 1200VA, not 1200w. Continuous is 1000w.

That invertor is not a LF invertor in the conventional sense. It’s a HF invertor

The bigger metal cases Phoenix invertors have what Victron describe as hybrid HF , ie both a HF switching stage and a LF drive stage.

Victron don’t make a conventional LF invertor to my knowledge.

Goboatingnow said:

Do Victron make a true LF inverter didn’t think so

Click to expand...

Not in the Low Frequency switching way.
But they use a big toroid like LF inverters ... and the motor starting capabilities are nearly the same as the low freq inverters.
How else should we call it?
HF-LF ?

What I can not figure is why Victron would sell an inverter that does not supply the outlet built in with 15 - 20 amps. You know like all standard outlets in peoples homes in the US?

Victron- The blue cult folks. If it is blue you have to have it. BTW to make it work you also need several other nifty blue devices. Amazing they don't have a monthly subscription model.

Mattb4 said:

What I can not figure is why Victron would sell an inverter that does not supply the outlet built in with 15 - 20 amps. You know like all standard outlets in peoples homes in the US?

Victron- The blue cult folks. If it is blue you have to have it. BTW to make it work you also need several other nifty blue devices. Amazing they don't have a monthly subscription model.

Click to expand...

For now they seem content with hardware sales and are leaving subscription models to Enphase.

I have a Lowe Wattage Phoenix, the 375 VA, and nowhere in Victron’s web page or tech data does it say it is a high frequency inverter. I’m with @Goboatingnow in saying it is some sort of hybrid. A low frequency inverter is such a good selling point they would list mention this. Also lists a peak power but not how long this is good for, so I assume the peak is good for less than a single cycle of 60 hz like other HF inverters.

Mattb4 said:

Victron- The blue cult folks. If it is blue you have to have it. BTW to make it work you also need several other nifty blue devices. Amazing they don't have a monthly subscription model.

Click to expand...

My Phoenix has a built in 15 amp outlet. Which one does not? Also, what other blue devices are required to work with a Phoenix? They are certainly available, but not necessary.

chrisski said:

I have a Lowe Wattage Phoenix, the 375 VA, and nowhere in Victron’s web page or tech data does it say it is a high frequency inverter. I’m with @Goboatingnow in saying it is some sort of hybrid. A low frequency inverter is such a good selling point they would list mention this. Also lists a peak power but not how long this is good for, so I assume the peak is good for less than a single cycle of 60 hz like other HF inverters.


My Phoenix has a built in 15 amp outlet. Which one does not? Also, what other blue devices are required to work with a Phoenix? They are certainly available, but not necessary.

Click to expand...

I think he is complaining that they don't sell a phoenix model that can max out the plug built into it.

chrisski said:

I have a Lowe Wattage Phoenix, the 375 VA, and nowhere in Victron’s web page or tech data does it say it is a high frequency inverter. I’m with @Goboatingnow in saying it is some sort of hybrid. A low frequency inverter is such a good selling point they would list mention this. Also lists a peak power but not how long this is good for, so I assume the peak is good for less than a single cycle of 60 hz like other HF inverters.


My Phoenix has a built in 15 amp outlet. Which one does not? Also, what other blue devices are required to work with a Phoenix? They are certainly available, but not necessary.

Click to expand...

Built in 15 amp outlet when you only have a 1200var inverter or less means you can not service the outlet with full rated amps. It takes 1800w to supply that 15a at 120vAC

Heck if the designers would design an inverter that would reliably run all standard 120vAc items with a standard 15a plug that could plug into it would probably find a ready market. It is what people expect when they use standard plugs and receptacles.

Mattb4 said:

Built in 15 amp outlet when you only have a 1200var inverter or less means you can not service the outlet with full rated amps. It takes 1800w to supply that 15a at 120vAC

Click to expand...

That would be nice. It would also be nice if they decided to get the proper UL listings so we could use their equipment in ours homes in America. It's almost like they think UL is an extortion racket and don't want to participate and are ok with just existing in auto/maritime and non UL countries.

Mattb4 said:

What I can not figure is why Victron would sell an inverter that does not supply the outlet built in with 15 - 20 amps. You know like all standard outlets in peoples homes in the US?

Victron- The blue cult folks. If it is blue you have to have it. BTW to make it work you also need several other nifty blue devices. Amazing they don't have a monthly subscription model.

Click to expand...

Do you have a moment so I may share my testimony of the gospel of Victron with you, brother?

Did you know that Victron open sourced their operating system, and lets you deploy their software and monitoring features on a raspberrypi for free? You don't technically need to buy a cerbogx for a system hub, see notes below...

So how many devices did I need exactly? Right now, I'm in the middle of making some changes to my systems and all the solar is hooked up to different battery banks. As a result, my Multiplus II is setup with a lithium battery bank and no solar right now--since there are no other DC devices in the system, it actually tracks my battery SoC based on its' power usage and charging (we run a generator every few days to get those batteries filled again until the new solar array is online). That fully featured battery/generator system only needs 1 Victron device, and it's connected to the internet with free monitoring and controls on Victron's cloud portal VRM (which is made from leading edge tech like grafana).

If I want to start doing solar charging with another device that can't communicate it's power input/usage (we have some FM60s and FM80s until I get more Victron), I need to use a battery monitor. I'm personally very happy to buy a BMV712 or smartshunt to track that energy usage. Where are you buying comms integration shunts with equivalent features for less exactly? They're cheap for the feature set.

For inverters, what are you suggesting instead that has the same integration quality and accessibility, hardware quality, at ANY price?

You go buy a Multiplus II if you want an inverter that can run a full RV or cabin, stack them or get quattros for huge facilities. The price is extremely attractive for the feature set and quality. Phoenix is undersized for that stuff, the new line only goes up to 1200VA (1000W, correct to call this out).

I'm considering one of these tiny inverters for computers/refrigerators/LED lights, but the next one I'm doing is going to be a MultiII 3000VA so far (already have the equipment on hand). There's a reason they're getting a MultiII though, they have 120V/propane laundry onsite, some people don't have that.

Full disclosure on skipping the cerbogx for a raspberry pi right now:
- Raspberry pi are very difficult to get right now! I did buy one myself at retail in this market so it's possible.
- Cable costs for raspi: I did have to buy a $80 and a $30 cable to convert Victron wires/ports to USB for the raspi--victron's cerbogx doesn't need these cables. I owned the $80 cable already for programming my inverter, but did have to order the $30 one that connects my shunt to USB for raspi.

I'm also a huge fan of the reliable 3000W 48V for cheaper inverters (20W low idle!!! almost as good as 11W victron 3000VA), but it doesn't start motors nearly as well as a Multiplus II 48/3000VA... I know because the smallest change in power response is immediately noticed by the pottery studio next door, if their pottery wheel motors don't respond exactly how they expect, they will ruin their art that they're hours into and then ruin their day. They know the Victron feels the same as the grid or 4000W generator, reliable can't hold up the same.

cs1234 said:

That would be nice. It would also be nice if they decided to get the proper UL listings so we could use their equipment in ours homes in America. It's almost like they think UL is an extortion racket and don't want to participate and are ok with just existing in auto/maritime and non UL countries.

Click to expand...

You might have a US-centric view of the world, I do too.

For me, I happen to be in an offgrid situation, we just need it to operate correctly.

I will appreciate the UL listing when it happens for a multi II (on a new model, it's not a retroactive listing), and totally understand that not having UL makes it a non-option for many people I speak to. I believe they have a Quattro that is UL, but it's a ton more money to gain an extra AC input, I wouldn't do it myself (I don't use victron if it doesn't make sense).

Saw a forum rumor they are seeking UL multiII for next year but didn't confirm with Victron (I wouldn't confirm this as a business myself).

I also have to explain my devotion a little further... I had a hardware replacement under warranty with Victron once, after I broke it by accident shearing a lug off. The amazon distributor immediately responded to the claim and got Victron to ship them a replacement, but somehow it didn't make it to me (the distributor confirmed they received it and lost it basically...). I notified that I hadn't seen progress to Victron and the CEO was on the phone with me the next day, and an inverter from corporate the next. I have never seen a business that size work so quickly to make something right. And frankly it was an honor to speak to somebody who has made such a large contribution to open source software and energy management systems at the same time, these improvements are free to anybody without paying anything.

FOR EXAMPLE, you could hack on your own version of VenusOS to support a growatt inverter (random example) for monitoring. You couldn't charge people for that code if it used VenusOS code (GPL licensing probably), but you could build a device with it installed and charge for it, or charge for support on it. Then people who wanted to DIY could take your growatt supporting code and build on it and make it more advanced.

Not trying to pick on Victron users. But I am a simple person that wants my devices to not need internet connections (where I live I have few internet options and low DATA amounts through cellular LTE) or be part of an ecosystem. I want a display and buttons on the inverter that allows me to change all necessary parameters (BTW why do so many inverter chargers lack any ability to change low voltage cutout that somebody decided to be ridiculous low?) I do not need remote functions nor graph making of production. I find all that frivolous. I am all for Open Source software if they make it so I can load it on my Open Suse Linux based computer and not need a Raspberry Pi.

I also do not need a huge whole house/cabin power supply since my needs are few and am happily served by a standard 120vAC receptacle can produce (If it is not wired to a 250w inverter).

Victron seems to make nice equipment but it is not designed for the US shore based off grid market.

cs1234 said:

I think he is complaining that they don't sell a phoenix model that can max out the plug built into it.

Click to expand...

OK. I’ve got a small build that does not require 15 amps. Perhaps 3 Amps on the AC size is what I use.

To me I needed a 300 watt AC load and I did not want to deal with the higher idle draw of a larger inverter.

There’s also larger models that will supply 15 amps.

Mattb4 said:

Not trying to pick on Victron users. But I am a simple person that wants my devices to not need internet connections (where I live I have few internet options and low DATA amounts through cellular LTE) or be part of an ecosystem. I want a display and buttons on the inverter that allows me to change all necessary parameters (BTW why do so many inverter chargers lack any ability to change low voltage cutout that somebody decided to be ridiculous low?) I do not need remote functions nor graph making of production. I find all that frivolous. I am all for Open Source software if they make it so I can load it on my Open Suse Linux based computer and not need a Raspberry Pi.

I also do not need a huge whole house/cabin power supply since my needs are few and am happily served by a standard 120vAC receptacle can produce (If it is not wired to a 250w inverter).

Victron seems to make nice equipment but it is not designed for the US shore based off grid market.

Click to expand...

I haven't stated that you need an internet connection. They also have lan based monitoring if that's what you're into. Or you don't need it at all! It seems like you're easily confused, stating that something is possible doesn't make it required.

Still waiting to hear what the perfect inverter is from you. Something that has really big idle losses is my guess based on your description.

Lilikoi_Heavy_Industries said:

I haven't stated that you need an internet connection. They also have lan based monitoring if that's what you're into. Or you don't need it at all! It seems like you're easily confused, stating that something is possible doesn't make it required.

Still waiting to hear what the perfect inverter is from you. Something that has really big idle losses is my guess based on your description.

Click to expand...

No I do not want big idle losses. Rather a stupid notion that anyone would.

Perfect inverter would have display and ability to adjust parameters such as alarms and low voltage cut out. It would supply a 15 amp or 20 amp 120vAC or 240 VAC with standard plug sizes the needed amperage. When you plug in a consumer product with a matching plug and amp rating it will start and run it.

Do not insult a person when they do not agree to join your cult. I am not easily confused.

Lilikoi_Heavy_Industries said:

I haven't stated that you need an internet connection. They also have lan based monitoring if that's what you're into. Or you don't need it at all! It seems like you're easily confused, stating that something is possible doesn't make it required.

Still waiting to hear what the perfect inverter is from you. Something that has really big idle losses is my guess based on your description.

Click to expand...

Yeah, you don't have to use VRM, I don't use it. I just use VictronConnect and it doesn't need an internet connection, only uses the Bluetooth to connect to the devices. If you have internet, you can online upgrade to the latest VictronConnect app version and it can upload latest firmware to the devices via bluetooth, but internet not required unless you use the VRM features.

Mattb4 said:

No I do not want big idle losses. Rather a stupid notion that anyone would.

Perfect inverter would have display and ability to adjust parameters such as alarms and low voltage cut out. It would supply a 15 amp or 20 amp 120vAC or 240 VAC with standard plug sizes the needed amperage. When you plug in a consumer product with a matching plug and amp rating it will start and run it.

Do not insult a person when they do not agree to join your cult. I am not easily confused.

Click to expand...

There are inverters on the market with buttons and displays like you're asking for, they're lower quality units with high idle losses. Am I missing anything? Is there one on the market that fits your description? Is this the dream inverter thread? WTF? If I'm wrong, share the details! Where do I buy this perfect inverter?

When you conflate having options with those options being frivolous, it definitely looks like you are trying to play dumb, I doubt I'm the only person who noticed this. Enjoy being shocked and offended for being called out for your own behavior.

Lilikoi_Heavy_Industries said:

There are inverters on the market with buttons and displays like you're asking for, they're lower quality units with high idle losses. Am I missing anything? Is there one on the market that fits your description? Is this the dream inverter thread? WTF? If I'm wrong, share the details! Where do I buy this perfect inverter?

When you conflate having options with those options being frivolous, it definitely looks like you are trying to play dumb, I doubt I'm the only person who noticed this. Enjoy being shocked and offended for being called out for your own behavior.

Click to expand...

You can not quit with being insulting can you? Bye bye.

Mattb4 said:

You can not quit with being insulting can you? Bye bye.

Click to expand...

It looks like you're agreeing that you're trying to compare an option that exists against an option that doesn't exist... The strange part is, you think the viewpoint becomes more valid if you don't admit it? That's what I'd call "playing dumb", once again.

EDIT: "playing dumb" is not an insult to your intelligence. It's accusing you of calculating, disingenuous behavior. They are two different things. Choose to be insulted or not. It's not my intent to claim you have a diminished intelligence AT ALL.