EG4 6000XP vs EG4 18KPV

G00SE said:

I think most “average” homes in America would have a hard time accidentally overloading 18kw of continuous output.
I think 12kw/50a is “doable” for even suburbia with some basic load management. Sometimes it’s the people who need to adjust more than the equipment.
If we really consider how much energy we are consuming it’s a bit surreal

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Hmm
Hot water heater ~ 16A continuouos
Clothes Dryer ~16A continuous
Oven / Range baking with a couple of surface units 24A continuous
4T HVAC in the summer in Phoenix 24A continuous (Lets not talk startup, but literally 8+ hours without turning off sometimes)

I count 80A of potential simultaneous demand before anyone turns on a blow dryer, coffee pot, toaster oven microwave, air fryer. None of which by themselves are a problem.

Demand is a bitch, but that 1800 watt blow dryer doesn't actually pull 15A. 10@110 maybe.

My two fridges pull practically nothing, and they are not exactly new.

Throw in 32A to charge the EV and we tossed 50A by the wayside. I put an "EV" switch in to keep the HWH and dryer from running at the same time, priority to the dryer. Get a slightly larger home with two HVAC's , maybe an undersink HWH, or better yet a 50A demand HWH, that's fun. If you want to be off-grid, you have to have enough output to meet your highest demand. Most folks who live north have gas or oil for heating, and may not have an air conditioner or electric range or ... In which case ~50A is probably more than enough. Then again if you are rural you may have a well pump and drain field, possibly a sewage pump.

The "average" all electric home tends to have very high demand needs. I for one don't want to pay the gas company or the electric company so . . . My basic load management was to keep it under 100A.

Also Note: There is an 80% rule you should never run any breaker over 80% for more than 3-5 hours. Really that is kinda long, keep heating it and it will die on you.

9KW peak and I've been parked in front the PC all day, the GF has been parked in front of the TV out of work. I don't have a sensor on the range, but it would show up under demand. Only showing HVAC/HWH and demand. No car charging today.



So I hit 40A for a significant interval around 1315-1330. Cooler weather keeps the HVAC well below summertime peaks (5K flatline, I did not know until this summer. The hotter it gets the higher the continuous draw.) So if you are all-electric 50A of output is going to require quite a bit of management. I routinely spike into the 18KW areas when I'm charging my car. When it's warmer if I'm cooking and running hot water in the kitchen it regularly hits 12-13000 watts (50+A).

YMMV

Hi all, so I thought I'd jump in here and ask a few questions, I'm rather new to solar and considering that 6000XP. I have some questions about the grid connected aspect of it. As I've read, you can't send energy back to the grid on it, that's fine.. I don't really want to here in San Diego area because they pay so little for residential solar production at the moment. So if I'm using the 6000XP and have it connected to a solar array, some batteries and the grid as a power source... how exactly will a unit like this function when it's toggling between the 3? Does my power supply draw get interrupted, so appliances are blinking? thermostats turns off/on? How often can it toggle between the power source if there's high demand or it's like right on the edge of needing to switch over?

I really like this unit and the idea of connecting 2 EG4 batteries... my power draw on the home without using air conditioning is average 10 kWh / day. We have one appliance on 220, which is the electric oven, everything else (dryer, water heater, range top) is all gas. No big power tools, might get a 220v welder at some point in the future, possibly a plug-in- hybrid vehicle in the future. I'm curious how this works exactly at peak usage times, the air conditioning is a real hog if we use it in the summer.

ksmithaz1 said:

Hot water heater ~ 16A continuouos
Clothes Dryer ~16A continuous
Oven / Range baking with a couple of surface units 24A continuous

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None of these are continuous power draws, they will all cycle on and off to maintain the set temperature, especially the stove.

bfaubion said:

So if I'm using the 6000XP and have it connected to a solar array, some batteries and the grid as a power source... how exactly will a unit like this function when it's toggling between the 3? Does my power supply draw get interrupted, so appliances are blinking?

Click to expand...

The inverter will sync its output to your grid so that if or when it needs to switch from battery or solar to grid it should be just about seamless, exactly like a computer UPS would do.
Also it will blend where it gets its DC power from, either the solar panels or battery or both at the same time and is also able to recharge your batteries from solar and provide power, again all seamlessly. And of course it can also recharge your battery from the grid if it absolutely has to.
There will be no blinking clocks and you literally will not know this blending of power is ever happening.

Quattrohead said:

The inverter will sync its output to your grid so that if or when it needs to switch from battery or solar to grid it should be just about seamless, exactly like a computer UPS would do.
Also it will blend where it gets its DC power from, either the solar panels or battery or both at the same time and is also able to recharge your batteries from solar and provide power, again all seamlessly. And of course it can also recharge your battery from the grid if it absolutely has to.
There will be no blinking clocks and you literally will not know this blending of power is ever happening.

Click to expand...

Ok, thanks for that info @Quattrohead .. I've looked through some of the documents for this unit, but I don't necessarily know what I'm looking to find the answers..

1) Does a one-way grid inverter like the 6000xp cycle through the power sources (grid, battery, solar) similar to inverters that are two-way? Such as the 18Kpv, or other fully on-grid systems? Sounds like they are all similar like that (like a computer UPS)

2) How often could it be toggling between the power sources, like if it's right on the edge of what solar input can provide, does it fluctuate between solar and grid/battery rapidly?

3) What happens if the power draw exceeds the 50 amp pass through that the 6000xp has?

4) Sounds like it would be helpful to have some kind of bypass switch in case someone would need more than 50 amps for whatever reason? Is there an easy toggle switch for that on the unit? Or is that something you have to provide outside of the unit (like a rapid shutdown switch?)

1. Yes
2. It will use solar first, then battery and finally grid or blend from the 2/3. The sequence can be changed in settings.
3. Don't know. Breaker will trip ?
4. This is the 1 big advantage the 18kpv has, automagic pass through of grid if needed. But yes you could use a manual bypass switch.

Quattrohead said:

1. Yes
2. It will use solar first, then battery and finally grid or blend from the 2/3. The sequence can be changed in settings.
3. Don't know. Breaker will trip ?
4. This is the 1 big advantage the 18kpv has, automagic pass through of grid if needed. But yes you could use a manual bypass switch.

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6000XP has both a manual and automatic grid bypass per the manual. NM, won't use automatic one for overload events...

MiDri said:

6000XP has both a manual and automatic grid bypass per the manual. NM, won't use automatic one for overload events...

Click to expand...

So you mean when there is an overload (like over 50 amps) it will likely just trip the breaker? If it's not an overload event, does that mean it has a grid bypass option to just switch to the grid and completely bypass the inverter? Or is that something you have to build outside of the 6000XP?

Quattrohead said:

None of these are continuous power draws, they will all cycle on and off to maintain the set temperature, especially the stove.

Click to expand...

Weeeeelllll yes and no. If you want to be persnickety, pretty much everything except my EV charger cycles on and off. In the summer my HVAC has a tendency to turn on at noon and not 'cycle' until 2AM but technically, ...

The point was made to G00SE's comment:
"I think most “average” homes in America would have a hard time accidentally overloading 18kw of continuous output."

To which I replied:

ksmithaz1 said:

Hot water heater ~ 16A continuos
Clothes Dryer ~16A continuous
Oven / Range baking with a couple of surface units 24A continuous

Click to expand...

So while none of the loads individually might be 'continuous' as in 100% they could (and sometimes do) all kick on at the same time for 30 minutes. Add in another 24A for the HVAC and your in the 80A range overloading 18kw (75A) of continuous output. IMAO you really want your inverter output to be 125% (80% load) of your estimated peak need from all your major power draws. This will cover you for the coffee pot air-fryer, electric skillet, toaster and blow dryer all being "accidentally" "needed" at the same time for 15-30 minutes.

"Dear,
Why are you boiling pasta, making coffee, air-frying something, toasting a bagel, and blow drying your hair (after taking a shower, so the HWH is on)? I thought you were just going to do 15 loads of laundry back to back today, and we were going to throw something on the grill outside?"

My dryer is definitely mostly "On" unless it's on that wrinkle guard at the end. Surface units on the range are the big draw. Oven hits it pretty hard during pre-heat, then settles down. HWH is 100% draw during the heating interval. Run a lot of hot water, kitchen and showers, it ramps up for as long as it takes.

I think 100A is the sweet spot for an all-electric 4BR home. YMMV, but if it's for backup, I might run it at the edge but if it's my primary I really would prefer to run around 50% of normal peaks, and I'd prefer if my units would operate independently without my intervention.

ksmithaz1 said:

Weeeeelllll yes and no. If you want to be persnickety, pretty much everything except my EV charger cycles on and off. In the summer my HVAC has a tendency to turn on at noon and not 'cycle' until 2AM but technically, ...

The point was made to G00SE's comment:
"I think most “average” homes in America would have a hard time accidentally overloading 18kw of continuous output."

To which I replied:


So while none of the loads individually might be 'continuous' as in 100% they could (and sometimes do) all kick on at the same time for 30 minutes. Add in another 24A for the HVAC and your in the 80A range overloading 18kw (75A) of continuous output. IMAO you really want your inverter output to be 125% (80% load) of your estimated peak need from all your major power draws. This will cover you for the coffee pot air-fryer, electric skillet, toaster and blow dryer all being "accidentally" "needed" at the same time for 15-30 minutes.

"Dear,
Why are you boiling pasta, making coffee, air-frying something, toasting a bagel, and blow drying your hair (after taking a shower, so the HWH is on)? I thought you were just going to do 15 loads of laundry back to back today, and we were going to throw something on the grill outside?"

My dryer is definitely mostly "On" unless it's on that wrinkle guard at the end. Surface units on the range are the big draw. Oven hits it pretty hard during pre-heat, then settles down. HWH is 100% draw during the heating interval. Run a lot of hot water, kitchen and showers, it ramps up for as long as it takes.

I think 100A is the sweet spot for an all-electric 4BR home. YMMV, but if it's for backup, I might run it at the edge but if it's my primary I really would prefer to run around 50% of normal peaks, and I'd prefer if my units would operate independently without my intervention.

Click to expand...

Ok, thanks for that info. So.. I guess I need to do some inventory on appliance amps. The biggest electric ones are 1) A single HVAC unit (it's gas heating, conventional cooling) 2) Electric wall oven on 220. Everything else is gas (water heater, clothes dryer, cooking range). I may pull out the 120 volt welder every once in a while, oh.. and I'm thinking I'll get a plug-in hybrid at some point, charging between 10pm and 6 am.

So I really really want to get away with using the 6000xp unit, It fits all the requirements I have, with the exception of the 50 amp pass through... if I can make that work, then I don't really have any reason to go with anything else. Unless there is a recommendation for other units. I'd like to go with an EG4 Inverter and batteries.

bfaubion said:

So you mean when there is an overload (like over 50 amps) it will likely just trip the breaker? If it's not an overload event, does that mean it has a grid bypass option to just switch to the grid and completely bypass the inverter? Or is that something you have to build outside of the 6000XP?

Click to expand...

The manual says it has a manual bypassed that links the mains and load directly.

bfaubion said:

So I really really want to get away with using the 6000xp unit, It fits all the requirements I have,

Click to expand...

I would say there is a high probability you will get away with a single unit but the best thing about it is they're cheap enough to add another one if you absolutely need to.
I am running an all-electric Florida house on a single 18K PV and have yet to have it go to bypass except when flogging the crap out of it during testing.
Here is my graph today cooking turkey and keeping the house cool, very rarely hit more than 6K.

Agreed
Buy one. Hook it up, with the option to add a second one.
Still cheaper, and adds redundancy.

bfaubion said:

Ok, thanks for that info. So.. I guess I need to do some inventory on appliance amps. The biggest electric ones are 1) A single HVAC unit (it's gas heating, conventional cooling) 2) Electric wall oven on 220. Everything else is gas (water heater, clothes dryer, cooking range). I may pull out the 120 volt welder every once in a while, oh.. and I'm thinking I'll get a plug-in hybrid at some point, charging between 10pm and 6 am.

So I really really want to get away with using the 6000xp unit, It fits all the requirements I have, with the exception of the 50 amp pass through... if I can make that work, then I don't really have any reason to go with anything else. Unless there is a recommendation for other units. I'd like to go with an EG4 Inverter and batteries.

Click to expand...

You can control a welder and with just one HVAC and an oven, you are unlikely to draw over 50A, not sure about 25. Don't think it will start a standard 4T compressor, might start and run it. Probably around 16-18A in a milder climate, here in PHX I can hit over 5KW of draw, but thats when it's 120 outside, so, if that is truly all you should be fine, if you can start the AC. In mild weather continuous draw from my AC is closer to 3-3.5KW.

You can throw all that out with the bath water ff you are plugging in an EV/PHEV of any flavor, and expect the solar to charge it. Then it get's really interesting. If your just gonna soak up TOU at night, non-issue, otherwise you really don't want to tap your batteries to charge your EV/PHEV if possible.

That being hypocritically said and not followed, I wrote a monitor for my EVSE, that tracks my battery SOC against an expected SOC. The problem I have is I have over-production during the day, and I'm not at home except on the weekends. Since I don't need much at night, when my current SOC exceeds my desired for the given time of day (IE enough to see me thru until the sun shines again), then I allow some of the charge to bleed off the PV batteries into the EV batteries at night. There is a lot of conversion loss PV->BAT->EV, but it's power I would be throwing away once the batteries hit 100%. so it actually works out. Keeping in mind I have 60KWH of PV battery, and my EV's have 64KWH battery packs, we are not talking 0-100%.

Just before 4PM, My target of 84% charge was not met. It started lowering the charge rate
1]20231126-155200 2566836 Status/Pilot/Rate: active / 40 / 40 SOC/Target: 83 / 84
1]20231126-155200 2566836 -- UPDATED: EVSE rate updated -> 36
1]20231126-155200 2566836 - Sleep(120)

By a little after 4 it gave up, and shut the charger off.
1]20231126-160800 2566836 -- evse_daemon() m:329 == n:329
1]20231126-160800 2566836 Status/Pilot/Rate: active / 8 / 8 SOC/Target: 81 / 86
1]20231126-160800 2566836 -- UPDATED: EVSE rate updated -> 0
1]20231126-160800 2566836 Charging Disabled
1]20231126-160800 2566836 - Sleep(120)

For now I have the tip at 1630/90%, probably should move to 1600, but by 8:06 PM my desired SOC has dipped to 73%, I've still got the EVSE disabled, 1700-1800 tends to be higher use, cooking dinner, and such. Might get another hour until 2200 when everything shuts off
1]20231126-200600 2566836 -- evse_daemon() m:329 == n:329
1]20231126-200600 2566836 Status/Pilot/Rate: disabled / 40 / 0 SOC/Target: 69 / 73
1]20231126-200600 2566836 - Sleep(120)

Everything kicks back on at 4AM and I re-check in expectation of output in 4 hours. My low threshold has me at 20% at 0800. I don't adjust the charge rate up unless I'm 3% higher than desired, then in 1A increments. If I drop below desired I adjust down in 4A increments, checks at 2 minute intervals.

There is built-in and other software that adjusts based on solar output, but I think the only thing that matters is that I have enough PV battery charge to last until I expect the sun to take over.

Good Luck.

I'm looking at the same thing. Originally I thought I'd never go past 10 x 400 watt panels.. I don't even need that much, so why bother with anything bigger than the 6000xp, and I don't want to export to grid.. seems perfect. BUT! I really want my whole house on the unit, because really the AC/Blower and a few appliances like the electric oven are the real hogs, and I'd like to add an EV charger in the future, other appliances are gas. Astronomical costs to cool during the summer (fortunately I don't get super hot summers in north-east San Diego county).

So if I go with a 6000xp, I may need 2, and still might have to do a critical loads panel, and separate out the existing sub-panel. With the 18K, I can do a feeder tap from the combined/meter 200 amp house breaker. I don't even think the 6000xp can handle the wire gauge coming out of that. Looks like the 18K can connect perfectly as one unit between the meter and my whole house.

I think it's going to come down to this - how much does it cost for an electrician to add the feeder tap setup and connect that 18K on the side of my home.

bfaubion said:

So you mean when there is an overload (like over 50 amps) it will likely just trip the breaker? If it's not an overload event, does that mean it has a grid bypass option to just switch to the grid and completely bypass the inverter? Or is that something you have to build outside of the 6000XP?

Click to expand...

The 6000XP inverter has a maximum continuous output of 25amps. If the loads exceed that (on either leg) for more than a few seconds, the unit will automatically switch to bypass the inverter and pass power along to the loads directly from the grid input. Once the loads are below the inverter limit for a few minutes, it will switch back to running the loads with the inverter - however the maximum grid bypass is 50 amps. Above that it will trip the breakers in the 6000xp.

I'd get an ammeter on the main feed and record a peak. 50A is both a lot, and not very much, depending, but if it works, I'd start with a pair of the 6000's, and be done with it. I'd break the meter feed off into an ATS that feeds your panel from either the 6000's on the meter feed, just for flexibility, and to simplify wiring, just bus the outputs on the 6000's into the ATS, if it shuts off the ATS just cut's over, and you can manually cut the ATS to the grid if you want to futz with the inverters.

ksmithaz1 said:

I'd get an ammeter on the main feed and record a peak. 50A is both a lot, and not very much, depending, but if it works, I'd start with a pair of the 6000's, and be done with it. I'd break the meter feed off into an ATS that feeds your panel from either the 6000's on the meter feed, just for flexibility, and to simplify wiring, just bus the outputs on the 6000's into the ATS, if it shuts off the ATS just cut's over, and you can manually cut the ATS to the grid if you want to futz with the inverters.

Click to expand...

ok, interesting, I will consider that as well. I see a diagram with the 18K for wiring up a feeder tap with the ATS that involves a whole house setup to the grid.. I'm guessing that's similar to something like two of the 6000xps. I'm going to get a quote from an electrician for installing the ATS with the feeder tap so it can reroute the existing main panel line to the inverter(s) and then back to the sub-panel. I'm curious though, coming out of that main panel is going to be something like 4 gauge wire, I believe the 6000xp are 6 gauge minimum... I'm sure an electrician would answer this, but is that technically OK, to have that 4 AUG going into a feed tap/breaker, and then from there going to a 6 AWG into the inverter, and then back to the existing 4 AWG wire to the existing sub-panel?

Going to post something about that quote too here on the forums, I'm curious what others have paid for that type of work.