9 Electricians called....none will take job

[Simpleone71]

As the title states, I have called nine different electricians in 3 counties and they either come out and review things and never call back or several have just not called at all.

So this is looking like a do it myself job and I just wanted an extra set of eyes on my plan here if you all would be so kind.

I have an inverter in the back bedroom of my house and my fuse panel is on the other end of my house in the garage. I did not place the inverter near it as I live in Georgia and from what I researched, it is not recommended to put the inverter and batteries in a unairconditioned space. It is a smaller house at 1800 sq ft.

I need a wire from the fuse panel to the inverter to charge the batteries. I have a Victron 48/5000/70-95 120v inverter but will not be using power assist and will be limiting my charging rate to 50a. I am thinking I will use 6/2 MC on a 60amp breaker which would meet the 80% rule for constant use.

I will also need a wire from my inverter back to the fuse panel for my 6-circuit transfer switch (Reliance Pro/Tran 2 #306A). I am thinking 6/2 MC for that also as my transfer switch has a max limit of 60 amp.

Finally, I will use 8/2 MC for the PV from the panels to the MPPT. I have a Victron 150/70.

By using MC wire, it will come in conduit since the wires are THHN. While I can get 6/2 in NM-B, it then is derated to 55 amps and since you can't get a 55 amp breaker, I have to go down to a 50 amp breaker. Then the 80% rule would take me to 44 amps.

From what I have read, in most areas, PV wire must be in metallic conduit, which this would meet.

Does this all sound right and seem to meet code in most areas (I know code is different in each town/city/county, just making sure I do not have a massive violation).

 

[mciholas]

So this is looking like a do it myself job

You may have to deal with permits, inspections, etc, for a grid tied system.

I have an inverter in the back bedroom of my house

Be aware that inverters generate waste heat since they are not 100% efficient. Do you want that heat in that bedroom?

and my fuse panel is on the other end of my house in the garage. I did not place the inverter near it as I live in Georgia and from what I researched, it is not recommended to put the inverter and batteries in a unairconditioned space.

I would tend to favor putting the inverter in the garage. You don't really want the inverter heat in the house. The garage will likely not be above 40C ambient which an inverter should tolerate.

If you want, add a thermostatic ventilation fan in the garage such that if the temps get above, say, 30C, it turns on and ventilates the garage. This helps keep the garage cooler even if you don't have solar.

Batteries don't like to be cold, but in Georgia, that's probably not a big issue. An attached garage will be warmer than outdoors in any case.

From what I have read, in most areas, PV wire must be in metallic conduit, which this would meet.

The PV DC wires need to be in metal conduit, the AC wires don't, from what I understand.

I think things would be simpler and nicer if the inverter was near the main panel in the garage. Run the PV wires there and all the other wiring is now short.

Mike C.

 

[Mattb4]

...

I need a wire from the fuse panel to the inverter to charge the batteries. I have a Victron 48/5000/70-95 120v inverter but will not be using power assist and will be limiting my charging rate to 50a. I am thinking I will use 6/2 MC on a 60amp breaker which would meet the 80% rule for constant use.

I will also need a wire from my inverter back to the fuse panel for my 6-circuit transfer switch (Reliance Pro/Tran 2 #306A). I am thinking 6/2 MC for that also as my transfer switch has a max limit of 60 amp.

Finally, I will use 8/2 MC for the PV from the panels to the MPPT. I have a Victron 150/70.

...

Unless I am reading this wrong you seem to be mixing DC amperage and AC amperage requirements for your electrical wires. Different voltage for the same wattage results in different amperage. For example you may be needing 50a to charge at 48vDC but from 120vAC the amperage would be 20a.

Also for your PV wire your array voltage going to the SCC could be high enough to reduce the size of the PV wire.

The transfer switch wire size sounds about right

 

[seneysolar]

As the title states, I have called nine different electricians in 3 counties and they either come out and review things and never call back or several have just not called at all.

So this is looking like a do it myself job and I just wanted an extra set of eyes on my plan here if you all would be so kind.

I have an inverter in the back bedroom of my house and my fuse panel is on the other end of my house in the garage. I did not place the inverter near it as I live in Georgia and from what I researched, it is not recommended to put the inverter and batteries in a unairconditioned space. It is a smaller house at 1800 sq ft.

I need a wire from the fuse panel to the inverter to charge the batteries. I have a Victron 48/5000/70-95 120v inverter but will not be using power assist and will be limiting my charging rate to 50a. I am thinking I will use 6/2 MC on a 60amp breaker which would meet the 80% rule for constant use.

I will also need a wire from my inverter back to the fuse panel for my 6-circuit transfer switch (Reliance Pro/Tran 2 #306A). I am thinking 6/2 MC for that also as my transfer switch has a max limit of 60 amp.

Finally, I will use 8/2 MC for the PV from the panels to the MPPT. I have a Victron 150/70.

By using MC wire, it will come in conduit since the wires are THHN. While I can get 6/2 in NM-B, it then is derated to 55 amps and since you can't get a 55 amp breaker, I have to go down to a 50 amp breaker. Then the 80% rule would take me to 44 amps.

From what I have read, in most areas, PV wire must be in metallic conduit, which this would meet.

Does this all sound right and seem to meet code in most areas (I know code is different in each town/city/county, just making sure I do not have a massive violation).

You are likely getting the cold shoulder from electricians for a couple reasons:
1. The inverter is not a UL listed device to be hard-wired into the home wiring
2. The charge controller is also not UL listed
3. Batteries in the bedroom? What kind of batts? Code would prohibit this without converting a closet into a "utility room" of sorts.
4. You should choose a wire size that would allow the use of the power assist feature. Just because you don't plan on using it, someone else (next homeowner) might. Think "max possible" when selecting wire size. You don't want a "goof up" when programing to overload the wiring before you notice.
5. Where are the solar panels? On roof? RSD device?

Since you are using a transfer switch, I assume this is for backup power. I would keep everything out of the living space. The only thing you will get out of an electrician in this scenario will be a "generator input" plug with transfer switch. You could DIY your Victron system to use that plug, keeping everything mobile/non-permanent in a sense. This way in a power outage you simply plug in your inverter just as you would a portable Generator. AC input could also be a just a plug for when you have grid power and want to charge batts.

 

[Simpleone71]

You may have to deal with permits, inspections, etc, for a grid tied system.


Be aware that inverters generate waste heat since they are not 100% efficient. Do you want that heat in that bedroom?


I would tend to favor putting the inverter in the garage. You don't really want the inverter heat in the house. The garage will likely not be above 40C ambient which an inverter should tolerate.

If you want, add a thermostatic ventilation fan in the garage such that if the temps get above, say, 30C, it turns on and ventilates the garage. This helps keep the garage cooler even if you don't have solar.

Batteries don't like to be cold, but in Georgia, that's probably not a big issue. An attached garage will be warmer than outdoors in any case.


The PV DC wires need to be in metal conduit, the AC wires don't, from what I understand.

I think things would be simpler and nicer if the inverter was near the main panel in the garage. Run the PV wires there and all the other wiring is now short.

Mike C.

This system will not be a grid tied system. Using the transfer switch, I will be able to separate the inverter output from the main fuse panel and grid.

I realize the inverter will generate heat, but it is already in a room where I have a server rack that generates heat. That room is around 10 degrees warmer than the rest of my house. I mentioned that I live in Georgia, but very South Georgia. We routinely get temperatures of 100 F to 110 F in the summers. From my research, the garage just didn't seem the best place even with extra heat generation from the inverter on top of my server's generating heat.

You make valid points, and I can tell you that I considered all the ones that you listed. I could list 5 to 6 more reasons for my installation in the back bedroom, but at this point, it is already installed in the bedroom and running with no solar connection and a 10 amp limited battery charge rating and only powering my server rack currently, so basically a big battery backup unit.

Overall, I just need to see if the 6/2 MC wires and breaker sizes seem reasonable for my inverter and transfer switch connections. It sounds like you are confirming my findings of PV wires needing to be in metal conduit. The other wires being THHN, if I am correct, are required to be in conduit or a raceway, and buying the wire in MC already, seems an easy route, although maybe not the cheapest.

 

[x98myers7]

there's a VERY good installer in NE GA that might be willing to help...

https://www.youtube.com/@GainSolarPower/

Home - Gain Solar

Based in Gainesville, GA, we offer professional solar installations to residents of Northeast GA and parts of NC and SC. Our solar installations include a

gainsolarpower.com

 

[Simpleone71]

You are likely getting the cold shoulder from electricians for a couple reasons:
1. The inverter is not a UL listed device to be hard-wired into the home wiring
2. The charge controller is also not UL listed
3. Batteries in the bedroom? What kind of batts? Code would prohibit this without converting a closet into a "utility room" of sorts.
4. You should choose a wire size that would allow the use of the power assist feature. Just because you don't plan on using it, someone else (next homeowner) might. Think "max possible" when selecting wire size. You don't want a "goof up" when programing to overload the wiring before you notice.
5. Where are the solar panels? On roof? RSD device?

Since you are using a transfer switch, I assume this is for backup power. I would keep everything out of the living space. The only thing you will get out of an electrician in this scenario will be a "generator input" plug with transfer switch. You could DIY your Victron system to use that plug, keeping everything mobile/non-permanent in a sense. This way in a power outage you simply plug in your inverter just as you would a portable Generator. AC input could also be a just a plug for when you have grid power and want to charge batts.

#1 - The Victron model I have is UL Listed. The transfer switch is also UL listed.

#2 - Not sure if the Victron charge controller is UL listed, but it never touches the AC side of the system, only connects to the batteries to charge and the solar panels.

#3, I have 6 EG4-LL-S batteries in a EG4 6 slot cabinet. From what I found (and I could be wrong), with the batteries in that room, it cannot be used as a bedroom with someone sleeping in it. It is not, as it is my "server" space with no bed or Funiture in the room other than a computer desk with a computer.

#5 - Solar panels are in back yard on a ground mount installation.

 

[Simpleone71]

there's a VERY good installer in NE GA that might be willing to help...

https://www.youtube.com/@GainSolarPower/

Home - Gain Solar

Based in Gainesville, GA, we offer professional solar installations to residents of Northeast GA and parts of NC and SC. Our solar installations include a

gainsolarpower.com

Thanks for the pointer and I will check them out. Desperation has not fully set in just yet, but it might I have a lot of money tied up at this point to just have a "UPS"

 

[x98myers7]

yeah, most electricians won't touch solar, so your experience is typical.

you can sleep on top of batteries. there aren't any requirements in the NEC specs on battery placement. I agree with placement of components in a basement, but I doubt you'll have problems with the inverters in a garage that is not climate controlled. I doubt you'll have a problem in the winter with batteries in the garage that far south, either.

 

[Simpleone71]

yeah, most electricians won't touch solar, so your experience is typical.

you can sleep on top of batteries. there aren't any requirements in the NEC specs on battery placement. I agree with placement of components in a basement, but I doubt you'll have problems with the inverters in a garage that is not climate controlled. I doubt you'll have a problem in the winter with batteries in the garage that far south, either.

Yep, towards the end of calling electricians, I stopped mentioning solar. I just said I need two new circuits added

 

[seneysolar]

#1 - The Victron model I have is UL Listed.

The Victron Multiplus II 48/5000 70-95 is UL "PENDING" The 12V and 24V versions are UL listed. As far as I know, the only one listed for 48V is the 10K multiplus. What Inverter model do you have?

#2 - Not sure if the Victron charge controller is UL listed, but it never touches the AC side of the system, only connects to the batteries to charge and the solar panels.

690.4 General Requirements
(B) Equipment
Electronic power converters, motor generators, PV modules, ac modules and ac module systems, dc combiners, PV rapid shutdown equipment (PVRSE), PV hazard control equipment (PVHCE), PV hazard control systems (PVHCS), dc circuit controllers, and charge controllers intended for use in PV systems shall be listed or be evaluated for the application and have a field label applied.

#3, I have 6 EG4-LL-S batteries in a EG4 6 slot cabinet. From what I found (and I could be wrong), with the batteries in that room, it cannot be used as a bedroom with someone sleeping in it. It is not, as it is my "server" space with no bed or Funiture in the room other than a computer desk with a computer.

NFPA 855 only permits residential ESS to be installed in the following areas:

• Attached garages
• Detached Garages
• On exterior walls at least 3 ft (914 mm) away from doors or windows
• Outdoors at least 3 ft (914 mm) away from doors or windows
• Utility closets
• Storage or utility spaces

ESS can be installed in any of those locations, however the walls and ceiling need to be protected by at least 5/8 in. (16 mm) gypsum board.

#5 - Solar panels are in back yard on a ground mount installation.

Perfect!

 

[danmc]

Another thing to be aware of with the Multiplus in the bedroom other than the heat is the noise. Especially when charging. I installed my 48/5000 in a cupboard in the kitchen as I had nowhere else to put it, and even with sound proofing you can still hear the fan noise and the hum of the inverter almost everywhere in the house. When charging from the grid it is especially loud.

Victron Community - Noise Level What is Your Experience.

 

[Simpleone71]

The Victron Multiplus II 48/5000 70-95 is UL "PENDING" The 12V and 24V versions are UL listed. As far as I know, the only one listed for 48V is the 10K multiplus. What Inverter model do you have?

690.4 General Requirements
(B) Equipment
Electronic power converters, motor generators, PV modules, ac modules and ac module systems, dc combiners, PV rapid shutdown equipment (PVRSE), PV hazard control equipment (PVHCE), PV hazard control systems (PVHCS), dc circuit controllers, and charge controllers intended for use in PV systems shall be listed or be evaluated for the application and have a field label applied.

NFPA 855 only permits residential ESS to be installed in the following areas:

• Attached garages
• Detached Garages
• On exterior walls at least 3 ft (914 mm) away from doors or windows
• Outdoors at least 3 ft (914 mm) away from doors or windows
• Utility closets
• Storage or utility spaces

ESS can be installed in any of those locations, however the walls and ceiling need to be protected by at least 5/8 in. (16 mm) gypsum board.

Perfect!

Thanks for the corrections! So, my inverter is "UL pending". The MPPT is UL listed according to Victron's website.

My batteries are UL listed and have built-in fire suppression.

Sounds like overall my system does not meet code. I wonder how many "DIY" solar systems meet all the codes in their area? I have tried to maintain code where I can and really think the only code I am violating is where my ESS is located. I chose that location due to many factors, but two critical ones being it is the furthest from where I sleep giving me the most amount of time to get out in case of a fire and that room is already storage and where the primary things are that I wish to power by battery/solar.

I think I am going to hire a handyman to pull the wires in the attic (6/2 MC for inverter & transfer switch, 8/2 MC for PV) and just leave them hanging for me to wire it all up as I am comfortable working with that and in the panel.

Thanks everyone for the corrections, advice, and comments!

 

[Simpleone71]

Another thing to be aware of with the Multiplus in the bedroom other than the heat is the noise. Especially when charging. I installed my 48/5000 in a cupboard in the kitchen as I had nowhere else to put it, and even with sound proofing you can still hear the fan noise and the hum of the inverter almost everywhere in the house. When charging from the grid it is especially loud.

Victron Community - Noise Level What is Your Experience.

Thanks for pointing that out. It is in the farthest room away from my sleeping area and den. It may be loud, but can it overpower the sound of 3 servers running micro fans blasting away at a high decibel? Kidding, but I can imagine near an area where you are at a lot, it would be annoying.

I have heard the hum from it while in the room with it, but before I had 3 UPS units and those also had the same hum.

 

[chilly2]

I have an inverter in the back bedroom of my house and my fuse panel is on the other end of my house in the garage. I did not place the inverter near it as I live in Georgia and from what I researched, it is not recommended to put the inverter and batteries in a unairconditioned space.

My equipment is in the garage by the breaker panel. In almost 4 years now it has not been an issue.

- Heat can be mitigated somewhat by using a radiant barrier on your garage door. A fan on a timer may help also.
- Moisture - add a dehumidifier.

e.g.

 

[seneysolar]

Sounds like overall my system does not meet code. I wonder how many "DIY" solar systems meet all the codes in their area? I have tried to maintain code where I can and really think the only code I am violating is where my ESS is located. I chose that location due to many factors, but two critical ones being it is the furthest from where I sleep giving me the most amount of time to get out in case of a fire and that room is already storage and where the primary things are that I wish to power by battery/solar.

Yes, most of the DIY installs violate code in some manner, but hey that's why its DIY.
The only reason I brought it up was because you asked.

No, the system in my house does not meet code either, mainly because I'm always tinkering with it, but I am also going to remove it or address certain areas if I ever sell. I think that's an important aspect that the DIY crowd needs to think about. The next guy is not going to have a clue and will probably hurt himself or others!

 

[x98myers7]

my dad is in NE GA and has a 16kw system completely off grid, all of his components are in his detached garage. that's where I would put them, ideally.

 

[Simpleone71]

Yes, most of the DIY installs violate code in some manner, but hey that's why its DIY.
The only reason I brought it up was because you asked.

No, the system in my house does not meet code either, mainly because I'm always tinkering with it, but I am also going to remove it or address certain areas if I ever sell. I think that's an important aspect that the DIY crowd needs to think about. The next guy is not going to have a clue and will probably hurt himself or others!

I did ask and yes, thanks for pointing out those things. I hope my reply did not sound ill about it I did realize that the code issue really comes into play when you go to sell as you mentioned. I think within reason, if you do the work yourself and you live there, code is a little more of a gray area. I'm sure everyone that doesn't meet all codes would at least meet the codes when it comes to breakers and proper wire sizing.

Mine should be able to be removed easily, especially since my solar panels are on a ground mount on wheels. My inverter, MPPT, and a few other things are on a 3/4" plywood board covered with ceramic flame-resistant paper. So, I would need to fix those lag screw holes from holding that up but would be fairly good at that point.

 

[Simpleone71]

my dad is in NE GA and has a 16kw system completely off grid, all of his components are in his detached garage. that's where I would put them, ideally.

My favorite spot would be in a basement, but down here, we can't have basements as they just fill up with water. There were some pros for placing it in the garage, but on my list there were more cons to placing it there, so I stuck with the back bedroom.