I have a Solaredge energy hub inverter, want to add schneider xw pro

[Zaphod]

Hey guys. I've been installing solar for a while now, but only just recently started looking into off-grid setups and the fact that there are so many cheaper options than what is being touted in the main stream. Long story short, I didn't know any better and got a SE7600H-US energy hub inverter, which is connected to an LG resu-prime-16H battery, and they go into the solaredge ATS Backup Interface. My question is if I would be able to add a schneider xw pro with eg4 battery into this system with AC coupling. I know that having 2 hybrid inverters, they are both grid forming and would fight for master. My question is if there is any way I could somehow designate one as master and one as follower. I ask because right now I seem to have 2 options. 1- pay absurdly large price tag again on another solaredge inv. and lg battery, then plug and play. 2- sell solaredge inverter, lg battery, and BUI. Acquire new solaredge grid-tie inverter (follower), new ATS, schneider inv and 2 EG4 batteries. I'm not a fan of either scenario because 1 would cost roughly 4.5k more than my proposal, and 2 would take a lot of time and effort and I would lose money on used equipment that is only 3 years old. I'm trying to AC couple the schneider so I could have a higher amp output. If that isn't an option, would I be able to directly connect the solaredge inverter to the AC input on the schneider, and disconnect the comms wire between the SE inv and the BUI? That way, it would force the SE to be follower. The problem with that would be I would be limited to 50A output, but I can deal with that. Especially at night, with grid out, SE can only take 26A out of the battery. Any and all advice is surely welcome! Thanks everyone!

 

[DIYrich]

If you want both during grid down, then one has to AC couple into the other. One has to be able to frequency shift (master), and the other has to be ul1740sa compliant to follow (slave).

 

[Zaphod]

If you want both during grid down, then one has to AC couple into the other. One has to be able to frequency shift (master), and the other has to be ul1740sa compliant to follow (slave).

I'm just wondering if the fact that my current SE inverter is grid forming, would it not still try to be the master even if I were to ac couple it into the other?

 

[400bird]

You connect them in series.
The output from one connected to the "grid"/input on the other.

Inverter A forms a grid (including inverter B, which is just along for the ride at this point) for as long as its battery lasts. Once the battery on A dies, it shuts down, then inverter B takes over, forms a micro grid and runs until its battery dies.

FYI, the Schneider XW does AC couple very well grid down (as far as grid forming, frequency shifting, etc). I've got my hooked up to my standard Solar Edge grid tie inverter.

But, when the grid is up, it doesn't charge the battery from the AC coupled solar without you doing something on the back end to command and control the charge (PLC, Home Assistant, Node-Red)
If you are going to add more solar with this additional inverter/battery, add a charge controller to directly charge the new battery, and you'll be golden.

 

[Zaphod]

You connect them in series.
The output from one connected to the "grid"/input on the other.

Inverter A forms a grid (including inverter B, which is just along for the ride at this point) for as long as its battery lasts. Once the battery on A dies, it shuts down, then inverter B takes over, forms a micro grid and runs until its battery dies.

FYI, the Schneider XW does AC couple very well grid down (as far as grid forming, frequency shifting, etc). I've got my hooked up to my standard Solar Edge grid tie inverter.

But, when the grid is up, it doesn't charge the battery from the AC coupled solar without you doing something on the back end to command and control the charge (PLC, Home Assistant, Node-Red)
If you are going to add more solar with this additional inverter/battery, add a charge controller to directly charge the new battery, and you'll be golden.

I attached what I believe you are stating should work. To my understanding, you mean to say that the SE inverter will not charge the LG battery while on grid? I am currently able to have it in self-consumption, and would believe it should still charge that battery as long as the eg4 was full and not calling to be charged, and my loads were not calling either. I wasn't necessarily planning on putting up any more solar, as I think there is enough to power my home. I just needed more battery and a higher AC output to handle larger loads. From what I can see, the schneider does not have a PV input, so I certainly would require a self-supporting way to charge the attached battery, as I wouldn't want to just charge from the grid. The charge controller seems like a good idea if that's needed, and I would source from panels already on my house and maybe add a couple more, instead of adding another large system. Thank you for your notes!

 

[400bird]

I attached what I believe you are stating should work.

Not exactly. Keep the SE backup interface and inverter together, I'm unsure on the interaction between the two, so I don't want to get in the middle of that
I'd put the XW either between the service entrance and SE back up or between the SE back up and the MSP.

However, the XW's pass through relays are rated at 60 amps. What is the SE backup rated to?

If you need more than 60 amps, you may be better off adding a critical loads panel off the main runs the XW.

To my understanding, you mean to say that the SE inverter will not charge the LG battery while on grid?

No, don't mess with the Solar Edge stuff, leave that functional.

When the grid is up, the XW doesn't have the ability to change from the Solar Edge production. You'll either need to add a charge controller hooked to some panels to directly charge the battery or get to programming and control the XW's charging from AC.

I am currently able to have it in self-consumption, and would believe it should still charge that battery as long as the eg4 was full and not calling to be charged, and my loads were not calling either. I wasn't necessarily planning on putting up any more solar, as I think there is enough to power my home. I just needed more battery and a higher AC output to handle larger loads. From what I can see, the schneider does not have a PV input,

It does not, it is a battery inverter/charger, not an all in one. It's part of a component system, where you get to size each component to your needs. Want tons of solar and just a single inverter, no prob. Tons of inverter and just a single string of panels, no prob. It allows more flexibility and redundancy, at the cost of complexity.

so I certainly would require a self-supporting way to charge the attached battery, as I wouldn't want to just charge from the grid. The charge controller seems like a good idea if that's needed, and I would source from panels already on my house and maybe add a couple more, instead of adding another large system.

Just a reminder that your current panels have Solar Edge optimizers under them. These are only compatible with a Solar Edge inverter. You either need to replace or remove those optimizers (you might need to add RSD modules if roof mounted)

Thank you for your notes!

 

[Zaphod]

Not exactly. Keep the SE backup interface and inverter together, I'm unsure on the interaction between the two, so I don't want to get in the middle of that
I'd put the XW either between the service entrance and SE back up or between the SE back up and the MSP.

Okay, I believe I understand that one. If I put the output of the XW directly onto the MSP, it would stay away from all of the BUI and the SE inv comms and CTs. If I put the output of XW of the XW onto the MSP, what would I attach to the AC input, if anything, the grid side of the BUI? Sorry if I am misunderstanding this at all. It's really my first time diving into diy and off-grid stuff. Been installing "big box store" solar for too long! I definitely wish I didn't install SE...I didn't think it would be so proprietary.

However, the XW's pass through relays are rated at 60 amps. What is the SE backup rated to?

The SE BUI is a whole home backup, with it's own 200A breaker, and it's the ATS for the system. the SE hybrid inverter, however, only allows 7600w on grid, and technically up to 10,000w off grid. it can pull 26A from it's battery, and the rest from the panels if the sun is up to cover the rest. The BUI does have extra breaker spaces to put other inverter generation, but I think it's only for SE inverters.

If you need more than 60 amps, you may be better off adding a critical loads panel off the main runs the XW.

No, don't mess with the Solar Edge stuff, leave that functional.

When the grid is up, the XW doesn't have the ability to change from the Solar Edge production. You'll either need to add a charge controller hooked to some panels to directly charge the battery or get to programming and control the XW's charging from AC.

Would I be able to program the XW to do both? If I got a charge controller, took some optimizers off the panels, hooked it up directly to the EG4, and programmed the XW to AC charge at say...11am-2pm when nobody is home and the sun is at the highest so technically the rest of the solar panels are also helping charge the battery (if it even needs any more charge)

It does not, it is a battery inverter/charger, not an all in one. It's part of a component system, where you get to size each component to your needs. Want tons of solar and just a single inverter, no prob. Tons of inverter and just a single string of panels, no prob. It allows more flexibility and redundancy, at the cost of complexity.

Thanks for the confirmation. Some of their diagrams show pv going into the XW, but none of their install manuals seemed to show that as being real!

Just a reminder that your current panels have Solar Edge optimizers under them. These are only compatible with a Solar Edge inverter. You either need to replace or remove those optimizers (you might need to add RSD modules if roof mounted)

Yup, definitely. If I can get this system connected and to function properly for the price I'm looking for, I wouldn't mind just grabbing a few extra panels and leaving the already installed panels alone. I'm in NC, with a dead south roof line and lots of solar hours. Hopefully I would only need 4-6 panels to get the job done

 

[400bird]

Okay, I believe I understand that one. If I put the output of the XW directly onto the MSP, it would stay away from all of the BUI and the SE inv comms and CTs. If I put the output of XW of the XW onto the MSP, what would I attach to the AC input, if anything, the grid side of the BUI? Sorry if I am misunderstanding this at all. It's really my first time diving into diy and off-grid stuff. Been installing "big box store" solar for too long! I definitely wish I didn't install SE...I didn't think it would be so proprietary.

The SE BUI is a whole home backup, with it's own 200A breaker, and it's the ATS for the system. the SE hybrid inverter, however, only allows 7600w on grid, and technically up to 10,000w off grid. it can pull 26A from it's battery, and the rest from the panels if the sun is up to cover the rest. The BUI does have extra breaker spaces to put other inverter generation, but I think it's only for SE inverters.

Hmm, let me see if I can get time to draw up the options I see this evening. Do you need/use all 200 amps of pass through? Do you manually load shed when the grid goes down?

Would I be able to program the XW to do both? If I got a charge controller, took some optimizers off the panels, hooked it up directly to the EG4, and programmed the XW to AC charge at say...11am-2pm when nobody is home and the sun is at the highest so technically the rest of the solar panels are also helping charge the battery (if it even needs any more charge)

Off grid, the XW will charge from excess AC coupled solar (in a normal set up, not sure how it will act here, because we haven't defined the set up here)
On grid, no the factory Schneider controls will not initiate an AC charge cycle in their own. You can set it up with Home Assistant, Node-Red on a Raspberry Pi, a PLC, plus many other options. But Schneider doesn't have that built in.

You can charge the battery from both AC (through the XW inverter) and DC (through a charge controller) at the same time.

Thanks for the confirmation. Some of their diagrams show pv going into the XW, but none of their install manuals seemed to show that as being real!

Yup, definitely. If I can get this system connected and to function properly for the price I'm looking for, I wouldn't mind just grabbing a few extra panels and leaving the already installed panels alone. I'm in NC, with a dead south roof line and lots of solar hours. Hopefully I would only need 4-6 panels to get the job done

What's the goal here? More back up energy storage, for when the grid goes down? Or more daily energy arbitrage (shifting solar energy to the evening/night)?

 

[Zaphod]

Hmm, let me see if I can get time to draw up the options I see this evening. Do you need/use all 200 amps of pass through? Do you manually load shed when the grid goes down?

I don't necessarily need all 200A of pass through, and could technically do a critical load panel but currently I manually shed loads when grid is down (which happens often unfortunately)

Off grid, the XW will charge from excess AC coupled solar (in a normal set up, not sure how it will act here, because we haven't defined the set up here)
On grid, no the factory Schneider controls will not initiate an AC charge cycle in their own. You can set it up with Home Assistant, Node-Red on a Raspberry Pi, a PLC, plus many other options. But Schneider doesn't have that built in.

Thanks for the clarification. I will look into those options

You can charge the battery from both AC (through the XW inverter) and DC (through a charge controller) at the same time.

What's the goal here? More back up energy storage, for when the grid goes down? Or more daily energy arbitrage (shifting solar energy to the evening/night)

I'm looking to do both. My house is all electric, being in the middle of nowhere in NC, we don't have gas lines and I'm not looking for propane or a generator. Honestly, I also want to test out best case scenario to see if I can go fully off-grid because my utility are thrives, charge me 14c/kwh and only pay me 3c/kwh to send back. I want to tell them to pound sand, eventually. For now, I'd feel good to use all my own, not send any back, and keep the grid as a backup

 

[wheisenburg]

But, when the grid is up, it doesn't charge the battery from the AC coupled solar without you doing something on the back end to command and control the charge (PLC, Home Assistant, Node-Red)

When the grid is up the Schneider will be in pass though mode. If you have your charging / exporting and grid support settings setup correctly, it should charge the battery with no problems. There are setting the will export power to the grid down to a certain battery SOC. That could prevent charging. My system charges from AC regularly, so if this isn't working it is a problem with the settings.

 

[400bird]

My system charges from AC regularly, so if this isn't working it is a problem with the settings.

Don't hold back your secret sauce. I've never seen the XW start a charge cycle on it's own, other than when an AC input first qualifies.

 

[wheisenburg]

Removed this text, because I some how posted to the wrong thread.

 

[wheisenburg]

Don't hold back your secret sauce. I've never seen the XW start a charge cycle on it's own, other than when an AC input first qualifies.

I had problems with SOC control. I couldn't get it to work. Then when I went back to voltage control, there was still problems with charging not working. I fixed my charging problems by going through to following steps:

1. Make a record of all your settings on each inverter.
2. Make sure your Insight is plugged into an outlet that won't lose power.
3. Use the PDP panel to engage the Pass Through mode with AC breakers and the metal slider.
4. Put both inverters in standby mode.
5. Run the "Reset All Settings to Factory" on the Devices - Controls - Advanced - Reset control for each inverter.
6. Reboot each inverter.
7. Upgrade Inverter firmware to latest 2.04, Upgrade insight firmware to V 17, V 18 seems to have issues.
8. Apply back all your settings, but use custom battery type, don't enable SOC control.
9. In charger settings, I have 53 volts.
10. In Charge block start and stop, I have 12:00 AM.
11. In battery settings I have battery type - custom.
12. Charge cycle - 2 stage.
13. Bulk Boast Voltage 54.5
14. Absorption Voltage 54.5
15. Low voltage cutout 48
16. High voltage cutout 60
17. Reboot each inverter again.
18. Double check that none of the settings went away.
19. Put inverters back into run mode.
20. Restore breakers in PDP

What ever the issue is, it does not show in the user settings screen. It's like some internal settings are messed up and can only be fix through the reset. Now you could just try my settings with out the reset process, but I heard of someone else having issues getting a charge cycle to kick off so I bit the bullet and did this. No more charging problems. Now if you are doing something that requires SOC control, maybe it won't work. I'm not really sure why SOC didn't work for me, but it was giving me fits so I went back to voltage control.

 

[400bird]

There's nothing special in those settings that will cause cause XW to start a charge cycle. What triggers your XW to start charging from AC? Is there a wattage/amperage limit?

 

[wheisenburg]

There's nothing special in those settings that will cause cause XW to start a charge cycle. What triggers your XW to start charging from AC? Is there a wattage/amperage limit?

It starts charging when the battery hits the recharge voltage.

 

[400bird]

It starts charging when the battery hits the recharge voltage.

On grid, the XW will not discharge down to recharge voltage setting. There is a 0.5 volt offset coded in the XW software, it will stop discharging before battery voltage gets to that point.

I realize this is chart is labeled "Load Shave Mode" the voltage settings apply across all operational modes.

 

[wheisenburg]

I have heard there are issues with that. In my case, I do a two stage charge. These inverters use about 35 watts each in standby mode. That power apparently comes from the battery. So the way I setup this, I am not using any of the grid interactive features on the inverter. I have full 1 to 1 net metering so it doesn't make any sense for me to do that.

I just did some exploring though. I am not having any issues setting the Grid Support voltage lower than the recharge voltage. Have you updated the firmware to latest? I am using 2.04 on the inverter and V 17 on Insight. I had issues with 18 so I backed it off.

So let's say we want to sell during a Rate TOU Peak from 5 PM to 8 PM and charge after 10:00 PM. This is how I would set that up:

Grid Support Voltage 52
Sell Amps 10

Charge Block Start 5:00 PM
Charge Block End 10:00 PM

Export Power Block Start 8:00 PM
Export Power Block End 5:00 PM

Are you unable to enter these settings?

Note that export power is a "Block" meaning it will NOT export during that time. So from 8:00 PM to 5:00 PM exporting is blocked. Export is only allowed from 5:00 PM until 8:00 PM. During this time it will export power at 10 Amps until battery voltage goes down to 52 volts. At that point export will stop.

 

[400bird]

I have heard there are issues with that. In my case, I do a two stage charge. These inverters use about 35 watts each in standby mode. That power apparently comes from the battery.

It does consume idle power from the battery, yes.

So the way I setup this, I am not using any of the grid interactive features on the inverter. I have full 1 to 1 net metering so it doesn't make any sense for me to do that.

If you aren't using grid interactive features, are you charging and discharging the battery every day?

I just did some exploring though. I am not having any issues setting the Grid Support voltage lower than the recharge voltage.

It will take the settings, that doesn't change the fact that the recharge voltage setting limits how low the battery can be discharged.

Have you updated the firmware to latest? I am using 2.04 on the inverter and V 17 on Insight. I had issues with 18 so I backed it off.

So let's say we want to sell during a Rate TOU Peak from 5 PM to 8 PM and charge after 10:00 PM. This is how I would set that up:

Grid Support Voltage 52
Sell Amps 10

Charge Block Start 5:00 PM
Charge Block End 10:00 PM

Export Power Block Start 8:00 PM
Export Power Block End 5:00 PM

Are you unable to enter these settings?

Note that export power is a "Block" meaning it will NOT export during that time. So from 8:00 PM to 5:00 PM exporting is blocked. Export is only allowed from 5:00 PM until 8:00 PM. During this time it will export power at 10 Amps until battery voltage goes down to 52 volts. At that point export will stop.

I've been running an XW since 2021 with multiple firmware updates since them.
Currently I am running the insight on 1.18 build 41, the XW is on 2.04.00 build 29
Both are current, but I've implemented a different solution to start a charge cycle, I'm not relying on Schneider to start a charge cycle on it's own.

My software levels aren't the issue, if you've gotten the XW to start a charge cycle, when grid connected, you're the first ever.
From the sound of it, "not using grid interactive features," I'm not sure you're letting the XW discharge down to watch it happen.

Schneider has had this known limitation going back for years. It's been documented here and on other forums.
I'm sure Schneider would say it was done purposefully, most of us here say it's a dumb programming decision.

I just checked through some of the release notes, Schneider hasn't listed any changes to how the recharge voltage setting works.
If the grid connection is constant (and you aren't actively hitting buttons in insight) the XW would not discharge down to the recharge voltage.

If they've changed operation, can you post some data to show it working?

 

[wheisenburg]

It does consume idle power from the battery, yes.

If you aren't using grid interactive features, are you charging and discharging the battery every day?

It will take the settings, that doesn't change the fact that the recharge voltage setting limits how low the battery can be discharged.

I've been running an XW since 2021 with multiple firmware updates since them.
Currently I am running the insight on 1.18 build 41, the XW is on 2.04.00 build 29
Both are current, but I've implemented a different solution to start a charge cycle, I'm not relying on Schneider to start a charge cycle on it's own.

My software levels aren't the issue, if you've gotten the XW to start a charge cycle, when grid connected, you're the first ever.
From the sound of it, "not using grid interactive features," I'm not sure you're letting the XW discharge down to watch it happen.

Schneider has had this known limitation going back for years. It's been documented here and on other forums.
I'm sure Schneider would say it was done purposefully, most of us here say it's a dumb programming decision.

I just checked through some of the release notes, Schneider hasn't listed any changes to how the recharge voltage setting works.
If the grid connection is constant (and you aren't actively hitting buttons in insight) the XW would not discharge down to the recharge voltage.

If they've changed operation, can you post some data to show it working?

You probably know more about this than I do. I am not discharging my battery beyond the idle consumption. On my system once it hits the recharge voltage, it does kick off a charge cycle. Again this is just due to idle consumption. This happens every 3 - 4 days. Of course if you are trying to sell the power out of the battery at one time and buy it back later, this doesn't help.

Does Schneider apply this recharge voltage + 0.5, discharge limit even if you apply a charge block during the selling period?

If this is true it pretty much means that there is no way to do any kind of time of use shifting when using an AC coupled system. At least not without some sort of additional external automation. I have heard this issue discussed before, but it wasn't causing me problems at the time so I didn't focus on it too much.

Probably, at the time they made this decision, TOU rates were not yet a thing. Still buying power when it is cheap and selling it when it is expensive is a pretty basic scenario these days that they really should be handling.

 

[400bird]

You probably know more about this than I do. I am not discharging my battery beyond the idle consumption. On my system once it hits the recharge voltage, it does kick off a charge cycle. Again this is just due to idle consumption. This happens every 3 - 4 days.

There's the difference! Schneider won't actively discharge down past recharge +0.5 volts. But idle consumption will continue to pull down the battery voltage.

Of course if you are trying to sell the power out of the battery at one time and buy it back later, this doesn't help.

Does Schneider apply this recharge voltage + 0.5, discharge limit even if you apply a charge block during the selling period?

Yup, it's always enforced.

If this is true it pretty much means that there is no way to do any kind of time of use shifting when using an AC coupled system. At least not without some sort of additional external automation. I have heard this issue discussed before, but it wasn't causing me problems at the time so I didn't focus on it too much.

External automation is a good term for it.

Probably, at the time they made this decision, TOU rates were not yet a thing. Still buying power when it is cheap and selling it when it is expensive is a pretty basic scenario these days that they really should be handling.

Agreed, but they need to get with the times. Over the past few software updates, it seems like they're assembling the pieces, but haven't deployed it yet.