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Jeep/ATV winch for Elevator? What do you think?

svetz

svetz

Works in theory! Practice? That's something else
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Looking for a reality check from those that use winches on ATVs or jeeps or otherwise have experience with them. If it is a reasonable idea, what features to look for and what pitfalls to avoid.

UPDATE:
So, using a winch is REALLY bad idea. They jam and have a host of problems, in the industry they're known as "coffin" lifts as they fail and generally have bad results. Thanks for sharing the knowledge guys!
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The price to get an elevator or cargo-lift installed is $20k-$40k, out of my league. I'm still researching. Possibly there's a DIY kit or something that's affordable for my mother in law (hopefully she'll finally move into the new house this week). She's in her 90's and can still get up/down stairs, but it's hard on her and doubt she could do it with groceries, so this is to help her feeling of independence so she doesn't feel trapped upstairs and unable to enjoy her yard. The stairs are outside in the weather too.

So, while the original premise is bad, creative members have had a lot to say on the topic. Most promising so far is the screw-driven lift.
 
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Mark H. said:
I assume you have investigated the stair lifts that run up a sidewall?
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Yes, less expensive but they don't seem as capable of carrying stuff (e.g., groceries) up/down and seem in the way of normal stairs and not enclosed (so would be in the rain going up). The wife also believes her mom would be less like to use it unless absolutely necessary (whereas an elevator is more of a normal thing).
 
I have found some kits here's the google search...around $5-6k... so getting there.

Part of my mis-thinking was cargo-lifts weren't for humans. Turns out cargo lifts are for humans too, the difference is the cab isn't enclosed, they're more like the image to the right.

The difference between a lift and a home elevator is in both the design and cost. An elevator has a totally enclosed cab and requires a shaft. A shaft is a wall enclosure that surrounds the cab and the machinery. A lift typically has an open cab, except for 42” panels on the sides of the platform. Lifts are generally more basic and lower cost than elevators.
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Haven't seen any battery operated (nice to not be stuck in the rain when the power goes out) and the designs look pretty simple (only one motor for one thing).
 
Considering the cost of an elevator, perhaps a nimble ATV (with storage rack) to run up and down the stairs would be far cheaper and a lot more fun. ;)
 
Honestly, I'd have a problem trusting my life, or someone else's, to a $250 winch that was not designed for safety, nor to be used as a lift. While it may be capable of doing the task, I personally wouldn't trust it to not fail.
 

mainly posting for system design inspo

the trio alta in that video is call for quote so it’s probably not the right price range.

anyways with the amount of detail that video goes into, it should be relatively easy to replicate the entire functionality if one wishes.

it’s svetz so they are obviously going to have decent hardware selection. go svetz! edit: (it’s late in this time zone)

if you do work on this more, please share details. i might one day build something like this
 
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Wow! Now that's out of the box thinking!! I like it!

Mark H. said:
Considering the cost of an elevator, perhaps a nimble ATV (with storage rack) to
run up and down the stairs would be far cheaper and a lot more fun. ;)
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That certainly hadn't occurred to me, she might be into that.

Also has the advantage of keeping the vehicle out of flood waters. I wonder
how doable that would be? Or, how you'd even do it.
images
 
I imagine you'd want the smallest-lightest ATV, perhaps electric. Otherwise it would just be a matter of having the room to park it when it reached the door platform. The stairs would have to be sturdy and reasonably wide.
 
Back to your original question in case the 4 wheeler doesn’t work

Never use a winch as they usually have a “free fall” mode.

You want a hoist which should not have that “feature “.

This assumes you like your mother in law. ?
 
Some really great ideas here! Thank you guys!

Rider said:
Honestly, I'd have a problem trusting my life, or someone else's, to a $250 winch that was not designed for safety, nor to be used as a lift. While it may be capable of doing the task, I personally wouldn't trust it to not fail.
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Agreed... the trick is not to rely on the motor or cable alone (here's a link for stuff done now) or do something totally novel like @curiouscarbon's video with the screw-driven lift, inherently safe, great life, and little maintenance. The video say's they're more expensive, but I'm not sure why. I need to look more into these.

Hoist Vs. Winch
Being a hoist doesn't guarantee a brake, but you can get both winches and hoists with a brake. Any sort of free-fall or other feature that allows the cable to be quickly spooled out is a very bad thing. The article linked by @curiouscarbon talked about dynamic breaking vs. Mechanical brakes, and that's a very important distinction.

Cog Train

An alternative to the ATV might be a cab similar to a cog train
(miners use these to get heavy loads up/down mountains),
basically it's a notched track and instead of turning the wheels
like a normal train, they turn the cog.
images
JoeHam said:
This assumes you like your mother in law. ?
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I adore her, she's just the nicest person ever.
 
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svetz said:
Agreed... the trick is not to rely on the motor or cable alone (here's a link for stuff done now) or do something totally novel like @curiouscarbon's video with the screw-driven lift, inherently safe, great life, and little maintenance. The video say's they're more expensive, but I'm not sure why. I need to look more into these.
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Pretty much every elevator in the world (who isn't an hydraulic one) use a worm drive just because of the safety reason alone (yes they are less efficient, have more wear, etc... but they're inherently safe: priceless).

Also I wouldn't use anything with less than 3 ropes (cables in elevator world are called ropes) which can each handle at least double the weight of the car + person + cargo (i.e. security factor of 6, and triple redundant).

Elevators have pretty much the highest life safety needs outside of aeronautics and areospatial domains, so please ensure you design is safe by a biiiig margin.
 

It's tempting to be thrifty, but there are MANY sad stories from india about situations of improvised home lifts. Please do take care.

For reference, video above (which is for indian market) outlines the 5-10 thousand USD range to be "coffins". I take those to be sticker type prices, so a DIY system could theoretically cost less and not be a coffin type, but please please do spend lots of time analyzing the design to ensure that your judgement could have lapsed once or twice and it will still fail safe.

Apparently in India, improvised lifts are sometimes called "coffins" because if it drops you are already in one.
 
I've had two winches that the brakes failed on. But not the way you're thinking. Both failed in an engaged mode. However, if the winch was taken out of "pull" mode and switched to "free" mode the line could be pulled out, but it was very difficult and required a fair amount of muscle. These were both Mile Marker winches, which are a tier 1 brand.

My dad was gathering supplies to make a lift out of a cheap winch. Fortunately, he never got very far along with it. He's done enough other stupid/dangerous stuff that the lift idea was only a minor concern.
 
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If you have a place for something like this, it might be a lot better than homegrown, and not expensive.
 
Thanks for posting that! The big issue I see with that system is that there's no backup for a cable or motor failure. Otherwise it's pretty close to what I was thinking, although I'd still want 12V just for power outages.

The original system I was thinking about had two motors/cables so that if either one failed the system wouldn't fail. I was thinking bigger wheels in a track, that way a "wheel chock" sprung from cable tension could be used as an emergency brake. But, didn't like that she'd be stuck in the elevator in an emergency, and wasn't sure if two hoists would work in tandem (need to research them more). Also if one failed and the cable got stuck, the second one would keep you from falling, but you'd still be trapped (possibly able to go up).

Both @Rider and @HRTKD reported problems with winches (one very unexpected from a tier one manufacturer). I was wondering if hoists had the same problems or not and at 18:30 he talks about the cable strands rolling over each other causing the elevator to shudder. Possibly a higher quality hoist might have a better guide to eliminate that? But even so, will they pull in tandem? What happens if one fails, how do you get out?

Hard to beat the screw-driven system for safety. Seems like it would work with and inexpensive electric motor (cheaper than a hoist/winch anyway), although a long threaded rod will easily make up the difference. What I'm not sure about is how you'd keep the threaded rod lubed and clean. Also, how do you escape the elevator if the motor fails?

@BiduleOhm also talked about a worm-drive, which I believe he meant to be the same as a screw-driven, but it sparked an idea of using a short screw to turn a cog that operated the lift -- seems like it would have all the safety and even less cost. But what I really like about the cog is that there's no cables to foul the system from going down (that is a hand-crank with a prawl could be used to lower the system for emergencies by disengaging the screw). Downside is I don't know of ready-made parts that could be reused for that (more research ;-).

Update: Turns out the brakes on some hoists work via cable friction and the #1 cause of brake failure is a contamination on the cable (grease/water). Given this would be outside with rain and squishy bugs...not a good idea. A hoist would need to have an alternative brake (e.g., brake drum) or gearing mechanism that insures no slippage (e.g., worm drive).
 
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A friend of mine uses a 2000lb atv winch on a homebuilt crane to lift engines out of cars and other various heavy things. It might not be the best thing for the job but it works okay.
 
Been looking more into the worm-gear cog idea. Turns out gears and gear racks aren't hard to find. I first ran across bicycle cogs, using bicycle parts is an interesting idea as the wear on a bicycle chain would be reduced since the chain wouldn't move in this application. But strength and quality would be iffy (sure you could double up or get an industrial roller chain, but a gear rack should be less expensive and stronger).

Gears and racks also led me to the video below. I don't think it would work unless you could find a heavy duty industrial screw-drive version. Might otherwise might not be as crazy as it sounds. The screw drive would prevent catastrophic failure, could use the light sensor to detect obstructions in the "pit", they have load sensors to detect if there's too much weight, radio remote controllers (one at the bottom, one in the cab, one at the top)? But a regular one just wouldn't be strong enough (weight of the cab + people + stuff + safety margin). Still have the problem with a trapped occupant, it would be nice if they could manually lower the car.


Update: No modern garage door opener will work for the purpose. Turns out they all have force sensors and if the the load isn't the normal amount it stops, Obviously in any sort of a lift the load will vary a lot (from an empty car to one with stuff)
 
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