I smell a rat...

[noenegdod]

Running an engine like a generator is only one use for the gas.. I can feed the gas into my home's natural gas piping and the furnace and water heater, as well as the stove, run just fine on it.

and of course you have stuck a 5 gas analyzer or even just a simple wide band O2 sensor in the sack and confirmed that, right? Getting it to run on some random gas is different than having it run well.

It is not a perfect solution by any means.. It takes time to bring it up to temperatures and you have to break the wood down into smaller chuncks. Really, picking up small branches and twigs kind of works even better.

Very little heat is wasted.. my chamber is insulated with 2 inches of ceramic wool.. And if I needed, a small modification would allow me to heat water directly from the cooling system. It's more efficient than a wood stove for sure, but is a magnitude more complex.. not a perfect solution.

Did you read the last sentence in what you were replying to? I acknowledged that it is very possible to achieve good efficency and emissions using a gasifier, it is just a ton of work, complexity and you can achieve the same or similar results with a much less complex system, using the same knowledge/information base required to operate a gasifier. Save the gasifier for running an ICE.

 

[MurphyGuy]

and of course you have stuck a 5 gas analyzer or even just a simple wide band O2 sensor in the sack and confirmed that, right? Getting it to run on some random gas is different than having it run well.


Did you read the last sentence in what you were replying to? I acknowledged that it is very possible to achieve good efficency and emissions using a gasifier, it is just a ton of work, complexity and you can achieve the same or similar results with a much less complex system, using the same knowledge/information base required to operate a gasifier. Save the gasifier for running an ICE.

We're not concerned with the gas composition so long as it works and produces a clean (blue or invisible) flame, we're also not concerned with efficiency since wood actually does "grow on trees" everywhere...

The point is that the gassifier doesn't exhaust the particulate matter of a wood stove.. and unlike a wood stove, the gassifier can do far more than just heat up a room.

What we did do to see how clean the gas is, is to cover the exhaust with a white cloth to see how fast it turns colors.. And while its obviously no match for a natural gas system, it did pretty well.. Took well over a minute before we could detect any discoloration at all, and the fact that gassifiers are carbon-neutral is a big bonus as well.

 

[noenegdod]

I find it interesting the different ways people will justify and reason their way through anything, as long as the outcome is what they want.

Gas composition matters. You have to re-jet a furnace if you switch from natural gas to propane, you have to rejet a furnace if you switch from natural gas to H and CO which are the primary constituent of producer gas.

Not rejetting means you are running very lean and producing a considerable amount of NOx But again, who cares, it works! Genius.

 

[MurphyGuy]

I find it interesting the different ways people will justify and reason their way through anything, as long as the outcome is what they want.

Gas composition matters. You have to re-jet a furnace if you switch from natural gas to propane, you have to rejet a furnace if you switch from natural gas to H and CO which are the primary constituent of producer gas.

Not rejetting means you are running very lean and producing a considerable amount of NOx But again, who cares, it works! Genius.

The gassifier is not for everyday use.. its purpose is a backup energy source in case of an SHTF event, so you are correct, no one cares about the extra emissions if there are any.. so long as it provides the fuel-gas needed to provide a level of comfortable living.

They do make wood fired gassifier furnaces.. They work a little differently as their primary function is not to produce a fuel-gas supply, but to simply provide heating. They are more efficient than a wood stove as well.

 

[noenegdod]

The gassifier is not for everyday use.. its purpose is a backup energy source in case of an SHTF event, so you are correct, no one cares about the extra emissions if there are any.. so long as it provides the fuel-gas needed to provide a level of comfortable living.

Then stop trying to present it as a viable alternative to a wood stove as you did in previous posts.

They do make wood fired gassifier furnaces.. They work a little differently as their primary function is not to produce a fuel-gas supply, but to simply provide heating. They are more efficient than a wood stove as well.

Yes they are, the are also substantially more expensive, require substantially more fuel prep and consistency, require more monitoring or cost even more for electronic monitoring, require more maintenance to keep at peak efficiency. Oh, wait, I thought efficency doesnt matter. Wood litterly grows on trees after all.

the level of contradiction is amazing.

I'm a bit miffed that they separated petroleum based fuels (Gas and Diesel), but lumped all wood burning into one category.

The gassifier is not for everyday use.. its purpose is a backup energy source in case of an SHTF event, so you are correct, no one cares about the extra emissions if there are any.. so long as it provides the fuel-gas needed to provide a level of comfortable living.

 

[MurphyGuy]

Then stop trying to present it as a viable alternative to a wood stove as you did in previous posts.

Yes they are, the are also substantially more expensive, require substantially more fuel prep and consistency, require more monitoring or cost even more for electronic monitoring, require more maintenance to keep at peak efficiency. Oh, wait, I thought efficency doesnt matter. Wood litterly grows on trees after all.

the level of contradiction is amazing.

There's something wrong with you... This isn't even a controversial subject and you enter the thread to start an argument out of a simple discussion and start throwing out silly statements.

 

[noenegdod]

There's something wrong with you... This isn't even a controversial subject and you enter the thread to start an argument out of a simple discussion and start throwing out silly statements.

And there you go again. You have run out of depth in a subject you quasi know something about but were trying to represent yourself as an authority and now have to resort to insults to try to protect your ego.

 

[MurphyGuy]

And there you go again. You have run out of depth in a subject you quasi know something about but were trying to represent yourself as an authority and now have to resort to insults to try to protect your ego.

LOL.. Whatever you say..

 

[McCarthy]

Since preventing health issues usually comes with the attachments of dictating and controlling peoples' lifestyles, what else can they do? Do you want your health care provider to limit you to one cookie a day to prevent diabetes? Should people be forced to run 4 laps a day, or should cheeseburgers be outlawed, to reduce heart disease?
People are gonna do what they do, all the health care industry can do is pick up the resulting pieces.
What about all the young adreneline junkies out there posting go pro videos on youtube with mishaps on everything from skateboards to wingsuits and freestyle motocross. Its not uncommon to get six month stays in the hospital for a broken body.
Covered by socialized health care but the average person cant get an appointment to see a doctor for minor problems.
Saw a channel with an amateur motocross racer who became paralyzed from the waist down after a racing accident, amazingly all his viewers are cheering his construction of a special motorcycle to continue his dream and be the first parapalegic stunt rider to perform a backflip.
Loser didnt learn his lesson the first time, I wouldnt care but everyone elses premiums subsidize his stupidity.
And yet they banned lawn darts, best toy we ever had. Nothing put a spark in grandmas stride at the fourth of july party like flinging one of those across the yard.

Through proper parenting and a better educational system.

Let young people know from an early age on what the consequences of their actions are.

Screw the government and regulations, everybody is free to do whatever he or she wants to do with their health. But if they take the risk, they have to pay for the consequences. I'm not willing to pay for the risk somebody else is taking.

Educate in time + personal choices = freedom and accountability

 

[MurphyGuy]

Through proper parenting and a better educational system.

Let young people know from an early age on what the consequences of their actions are.

Screw the government and regulations, everybody is free to do whatever he or she wants to do with their health. But if they take the risk, they have to pay for the consequences. I'm not willing to pay for the risk somebody else is taking.

Educate in time + personal choices = freedom and accountability

I agree with you in principle, I'm big on personal responsibility.. the problem is that's not how it actually works, or even can work.

Example:
You're 20 years old, just getting started in life and don't have insurance yet.. You get injured by no fault of your own, or you have a medical issue you didn't know about.. you go to the hospital and what? They're supposed to determine if you can pay before allowing you in the door?

What ends up happening is that the costs associated with helping people who can't pay are transferred to those who can pay. The hospital has to raise their fees for service, and it is other people who end up paying those extra costs via higher insurance premiums and service fees.

The guy who eats sugary foods all day long, smokes, etc., is going to raise YOUR insurance premiums and the cost of YOUR care...

The mother who provides Ding Dongs and Twinkies to their 6 year old who already weighs 150 lbs is creating a healthcare industry nightmare.. a ticking time bomb that will go off in 20 years and result in a $50,000 hospital bill..
Who do you blame for those life choices? The mother? Or a 6 year old child?

The easiest way to control these costs is to 1) Make bad life choices more difficult to make 2) Make good life choices easier to make. That's not done with education, its done with regulation.. and its done at the cost of freedom and accountability, which obviously sucks..

Let me create a fictitious example:
The government outlaws all "added sugars" to foods.. It bans any and all food manufacturing from adding extra sugar that wasn't part of the original food ingredient that was grown. It also bans all sugar sales in grocery stores so you can no longer purchase 5 or 10 lbs bags of sugar.

Have your freedoms and liberties been curtailed and stepped on? It is still legal to grow your own sugar cane or beets and process your own for self consumption, but we know that most people won't bother doing that so they will live healthier lives. Children will no longer grow up obese and in 30 years, the heart attack rate drops 75% because the average person no longer has clogged arteries from eating sugar, and your insurance premiums are cut by 75% because the number of new diabetics drops to what it was in the 1920's.

A broken leg goes from $4000 to $400.. Common stitches go from a $1500 emergency room visit to $200.. all because the government curtailed the commercial distribution of sugar.. Will you feel enslaved? Will you feel trapped by that? Have your freedoms been harmed?

So what do you think?

 

[noenegdod]

LOL.. Whatever you say..

No its what you say. You say this:

There's something wrong with you... This isn't even a controversial subject and you enter the thread to start an argument out of a simple discussion and start throwing out silly statements.

After starting a thread called "I smell a rat........ with this:

I'm a bit miffed that they separated petroleum based fuels (Gas and Diesel), but lumped all wood burning into one category. Almost sounds like the petroleum industry had their greedy mittens in the research somehow..

You say Im the one with something wrong......

 

[McCarthy]

I agree with you in principle, I'm big on personal responsibility.. the problem is that's not how it actually works, or even can work.

Example:
You're 20 years old, just getting started in life and don't have insurance yet.. You get injured by no fault of your own, or you have a medical issue you didn't know about.. you go to the hospital and what? They're supposed to determine if you can pay before allowing you in the door?

What ends up happening is that the costs associated with helping people who can't pay are transferred to those who can pay. The hospital has to raise their fees for service, and it is other people who end up paying those extra costs via higher insurance premiums and service fees.

The guy who eats sugary foods all day long, smokes, etc., is going to raise YOUR insurance premiums and the cost of YOUR care...

The mother who provides Ding Dongs and Twinkies to their 6 year old who already weighs 150 lbs is creating a healthcare industry nightmare.. a ticking time bomb that will go off in 20 years and result in a $50,000 hospital bill..
Who do you blame for those life choices? The mother? Or a 6 year old child?

The easiest way to control these costs is to 1) Make bad life choices more difficult to make 2) Make good life choices easier to make. That's not done with education, its done with regulation.. and its done at the cost of freedom and accountability, which obviously sucks..

Let me create a fictitious example:
The government outlaws all "added sugars" to foods.. It bans any and all food manufacturing from adding extra sugar that wasn't part of the original food ingredient that was grown. It also bans all sugar sales in grocery stores so you can no longer purchase 5 or 10 lbs bags of sugar.

Have your freedoms and liberties been curtailed and stepped on? It is still legal to grow your own sugar cane or beets and process your own for self consumption, but we know that most people won't bother doing that so they will live healthier lives. Children will no longer grow up obese and in 30 years, the heart attack rate drops 75% because the average person no longer has clogged arteries from eating sugar, and your insurance premiums are cut by 75% because the number of new diabetics drops to what it was in the 1920's.

A broken leg goes from $4000 to $400.. Common stitches go from a $1500 emergency room visit to $200.. all because the government curtailed the commercial distribution of sugar.. Will you feel enslaved? Will you feel trapped by that? Have your freedoms been harmed?

So what do you think?

I agree with your analogy, obviously, but that's not what my believe system accepts. If we would go by that standard you would have to "outlaw" many more items. Alcohol would have to be banned as much as motorcycles with 200 HP at 400 pounds. Soon we would all sit at home and do nothing exciting anymore.

Insurances already increase premiums for those with pre existing conditions and smokers. While it will never be perfect, there are more tools to make those accountable who decide for negative impacts on their health. A simple bloodwork reveals a ton of information that shows health decisions made in the past. You can also turn the system around. Everybody pays the base premium and those proving a healthy lifestyle get massive discounts and paybacks.

Besides 1 kidney stone and 1 broken wrist, I don't have anything on my medical record at almost 50 years. My premium is low at 500 a month with no tax cuts and zero deducible. I know plenty of folks in my age bracket that pay 1000 and 1200 a month for comparable no payroll / group plans. So the system is already working to a degree.

If you want to regulate, regulate the health care costs in this country. When I shopped around for my wrist surgery several years ago, it ranged from 4k to over 30k for the exact same procedure and the same titanium compression screw. Some hospitals charge up to 800 bucks for a simple bag of saline solution. Something that costs a couple bucks to manufacture.

 

[MurphyGuy]

I agree with your analogy, obviously, but that's not what my believe system accepts. If we would go by that standard you would have to "outlaw" many more items. Alcohol would have to be banned as much as motorcycles with 200 HP at 400 pounds. Soon we would all sit at home and do nothing exciting anymore.

But I'm not suggesting we "outlaw" these items, I'm proposing we ban the sale of them, not the manufacturing or possession. You're still free to brew your own alcohol or build your own motorcycle, grow your own sugar and even share it with friends, but not sell it.. but doing so is not going to be as easy as pulling a plastic card out of your pocket and going home with your purchase.

Actually, I'm not suggesting anything, I'm just exploring the possibilities and consequences with you.. just to be clear.

I consider myself to be a strong constitutionalist.. Not some wack job who thinks its still 1850, but the constitution is a fine set of rules, so long as we follow them.

Our society has made it easy and convenient to be stupid and lazy, I'm suggesting we find a way to fix that attribute in order to make all those really bad choices a bit more difficult to make.

Of course, this isn't a perfect solution either. I make rockets out of sugar.. that would be hard to do if I had to grow the stuff..

Insurances already increase premiums for those with pre existing conditions and smokers. While it will never be perfect, there are more tools to make those accountable who decide for negative impacts on their health. A simple bloodwork reveals a ton of information that shows health decisions made in the past. You can also turn the system around. Everybody pays the base premium and those proving a healthy lifestyle get massive discounts and paybacks.

That might be a good idea.. Isn't that was Obama was trying to do in a sort of sloppy fashion?

Also, I'm not sure about the blood test thing.. that's a hugely invasive policy that might be abused when its being used for such purposes. I've learned in my life that any public policy that can be abused, will be abused for the benefit of another.

Besides 1 kidney stone and 1 broken wrist, I don't have anything on my medical record at almost 50 years. My premium is low at 500 a month with no tax cuts and zero deducible. I know plenty of folks in my age bracket that pay 1000 and 1200 a month for comparable no payroll / group plans. So the system is already working to a degree.

If you want to regulate, regulate the health care costs in this country. When I shopped around for my wrist surgery several years ago, it ranged from 4k to over 30k for the exact same procedure and the same titanium compression screw. Some hospitals charge up to 800 bucks for a simple bag of saline solution. Something that costs a couple bucks to manufacture.

I'm a big supporter of making healthcare providers post their prices on a menu like McDonald's.. Make the doctors and hospitals compete with each other like free market was designed to do.
I'm also a firm believer that corporate lobbying is harming us in a huge way. The supreme court really screwed up when they gave corporations person-hood.. So now, a corporation is legally treated like a person with all the constitutional protections.. but you can't put a corporation in jail and they're allowed to buy themselves out of punishment for criminal activities.

 

[noenegdod]

Insurances already increase premiums for those with pre existing conditions and smokers. While it will never be perfect, there are more tools to make those accountable who decide for negative impacts on their health. A simple bloodwork reveals a ton of information that shows health decisions made in the past. You can also turn the system around. Everybody pays the base premium and those proving a healthy lifestyle get massive discounts and paybacks.

100% . Many simple blood tests show a history of poor choices and lay out your future vulnerabilities.

 

[McCarthy]

But I'm not suggesting we "outlaw" these items, I'm proposing we ban the sale of them, not the manufacturing or possession. You're still free to brew your own alcohol or build your own motorcycle, grow your own sugar and even share it with friends, but not sell it.. but doing so is not going to be as easy as pulling a plastic card out of your pocket and going home with your purchase.

Actually, I'm not suggesting anything, I'm just exploring the possibilities and consequences with you.. just to be clear.

I consider myself to be a strong constitutionalist.. Not some wack job who thinks its still 1850, but the constitution is a fine set of rules, so long as we follow them.

Our society has made it easy and convenient to be stupid and lazy, I'm suggesting we find a way to fix that attribute in order to make all those really bad choices a bit more difficult to make.

Of course, this isn't a perfect solution either. I make rockets out of sugar.. that would be hard to do if I had to grow the stuff..


That might be a good idea.. Isn't that was Obama was trying to do in a sort of sloppy fashion?

Also, I'm not sure about the blood test thing.. that's a hugely invasive policy that might be abused when its being used for such purposes. I've learned in my life that any public policy that can be abused, will be abused for the benefit of another.

I'm a big supporter of making healthcare providers post their prices on a menu like McDonald's.. Make the doctors and hospitals compete with each other like free market was designed to do.
I'm also a firm believer that corporate lobbying is harming us in a huge way. The supreme court really screwed up when they gave corporations person-hood.. So now, a corporation is legally treated like a person with all the constitutional protections.. but you can't put a corporation in jail and they're allowed to buy themselves out of punishment for criminal activities.

I'm on the page with your perception and perspective. Our anti trust laws are also a joke. Big tech with social media platforms long manipulate for agenda, profit and votes.

And we indeed became lazy and complacent, it shows on all levels all the way to internal policy handling. We also sold out to China and formed our next cold war monster to come.

Good times come in waves and are interrupted by bad times. The US is in for a rough ride IMO. It will take strong people to take over again, and that will need time, by a lot.

 

[noenegdod]

Good times come in waves and are interrupted by bad times. The US is in for a rough ride IMO. It will take strong people to take over again, and that will need time, by a lot.

Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

And around and around we go.......

 

[McCarthy]

Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

And around and around we go.......

It is nice to see that some people understand what is really going on.

 

[MurphyGuy]

I'm on the page with your perception and perspective. Our anti trust laws are also a joke. Big tech with social media platforms long manipulate for agenda, profit and votes.

Yeah, I see what you're saying but it's Big Tech's right to do so.. Freedom of speech isn't always an agreeable. My own anecdotal experience with facebook has been to delete most of my profile and limit my participation to their classified ads via their "marketplace". I no longer click their sponsored advertisements or participate in any other social aspect.. and when contacting others, conversations are moved to email immediately.

Facebook, and other big tech, has the right to regulate their platforms as they see fit... and we have the right to find another platform.

And we indeed became lazy and complacent, it shows on all levels all the way to internal policy handling. We also sold out to China and formed our next cold war monster to come.

I agree for the most part.. but I also think its important to understand that it is indeed "WE".. not the government, not some elected leader, not some corporation.. "We the people" wanted cheap disposable crap so we started buying stuff made in China. Just look into this website's forums and see all the people using Chinese batteries, Chinese BMS's, Chinese Inverters, etc etc. And they'll be hooking up those inverters while wearing Chinese shoes, using Chinese tools..

There's no one else to blame but ourselves.

Good times come in waves and are interrupted by bad times. The US is in for a rough ride IMO. It will take strong people to take over again, and that will need time, by a lot.

I'm no expert in economics by any measure and have zero qualifications or education in the subject.. My wife however, does.. and she thinks we're in for a collapse.

 

[McCarthy]

Yeah, I see what you're saying but it's Big Tech's right to do so.. Freedom of speech isn't always an agreeable. My own anecdotal experience with facebook has been to delete most of my profile and limit my participation to their classified ads via their "marketplace". I no longer click their sponsored advertisements or participate in any other social aspect.. and when contacting others, conversations are moved to email immediately.

Facebook, and other big tech, has the right to regulate their platforms as they see fit... and we have the right to find another platform.


I agree for the most part.. but I also think its important to understand that it is indeed "WE".. not the government, not some elected leader, not some corporation.. "We the people" wanted cheap disposable crap so we started buying stuff made in China. Just look into this website's forums and see all the people using Chinese batteries, Chinese BMS's, Chinese Inverters, etc etc. And they'll be hooking up those inverters while wearing Chinese shoes, using Chinese tools..

There's no one else to blame but ourselves.


I'm no expert in economics by any measure and have zero qualifications or education in the subject.. My wife however, does.. and she thinks we're in for a collapse.

It is true, in the end it is "we" who allowed all the crap to build up. And weak leaders allowed this to happen as well, over the course of decades by now.

I don't buy Chinese made products as long as I have an option. None of my tools are made in China, most come from Germany or other EU countries, some from the US. I just bought a TIG welder. Instead of buying one of those $200 to $900 TIG welders on Amazon, made in China, I spent 6k on a high quality system made in Austria. The welding table doesn't come from Harbor Freight or Northern Tools but a small US based fabrication shop. Instead of getting away with 200 bucks, I spent 1k on it.

I have been preaching to buy US or at least non China made products for a very long time, but most don't want to hear it. They rather buy the same cheap crap every 2 years after it breaks, than a quality tool that may outlast them.

PS: our stock market and housing market is in a bubble, so a correction will come, at some point. The Feds printing money and increasing our national debt with no end in sight will seal that deal. If we end up in hyper-inflation, it will take decades to recover.

 

[Bob B]

Let me create a fictitious example:
The government outlaws all "added sugars" to foods.. It bans any and all food manufacturing from adding extra sugar that wasn't part of the original food ingredient that was grown. It also bans all sugar sales in grocery stores so you can no longer purchase 5 or 10 lbs bags of sugar.


So what do you think?

Trying to ban things doesn't work .... it just brings us a black market and organized crime. Costs law enforcement a fortune and doesn't prevent anything .... well, not much of anything.

That's exactly the lesson we should learn from prohibition and the war on drugs. One of them brought us the mafia and the other gangs that are much worse than the mafia.
If you then decide .... well, that didn't work, lets make it legal again ... then you have a large organized crime group that just moves on to some other type of crime.

If we spent more time in school teaching our kids about the effects of an unhealthy lifestyle instead of a bunch of woke mumbo jumbo we might have some effect.