Looking to build a system to replace generator setup

seneysolar said:

One thing ill say about Lithium is that it has forced everyone to pay attention as to not upset the BMS. Or at least wrap their mind around power in/power out and depth of discharge

Lead acids will drain far into an unhealthy SOC without notice and most folks just thought "its still working, must be ok". In the old days, the only notification was the beeping inverter for low battery cutoff. Driving blind generally. This gets them the bad reputation of short life, high maintenance.

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FLA truly are this. To get exceptional life, one must be OCD about FLA maintenance, keep good records for trending, timing equalizations, etc.

LordGarak said:

I'm able to get them for around 50 cents a watt here in Dartmouth now and they will ship via freight. I just got a quote for ~$400 to ship 8 panels to our property in Doyles. I was going to bring them over on the roof of my minivan but they are a bit on the heavy side so I'd only be able to take 2 at a time. Shipping might be quite a bit less to the depot in CB.

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Oh wow, where are the panels from?

sunshine_eggo said:

Wow. You are an alarmist.

You can't have it both ways. Lead acid will only freeze when the specific gravity is low. When the specific gravity is low, the acid is not as concentrated. Of course it varies by actual temperature, but if lead acid can freeze, the concentration of of the sulfuric acid is far lower than when fully charged.

A FLA at 25% SoC is good down to about -16°C.

It's not foolish to fall back on a technology that is centuries old and is still in widespread use today. Your reasons are your own, but you have no valid reason to shit on other people's choices when they are as valid as yours.

Looks like you have some 'splaining to do as well:

View attachment 206033

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That is the old system that I installed in 2020. I couldn't get LiFePO4 batteries here for a reasonable price then, little lone the cheaper than lead that I can get them now. It is only 1100Ah at the 100hr rate, with real world draw and not discharging over 50% it's only about 400Ah useable. Those batteries are Rolls S550 cost $2000 Canadian plus shipping and taxes. They are still doing ok but I think the capacity is already far below the specs, the current system doesn't track Ah or kWh consumed. The specific gravity when fully charged is getting a bit on the low end.

I'm building a whole new 48v system which I'm currently bench testing and will be installed in May. We will keep the 12v system going for a few more years just to run the DC fridge and water pump. The new system will take over all the 120v loads like Starlink.

I've personally seen a number of flooded lead acid batteries get over discharged and freeze. I also know people who have lost their entire bank to over discharging and freezing.

LordGarak said:

That is the old system that I installed in 2020. I couldn't get LiFePO4 batteries here for a reasonable price then, little lone the cheaper than lead that I can get them now. It is only 1100Ah at the 100hr rate, with real world draw and not discharging over 50% it's only about 400Ah useable. Those batteries are Rolls S550 cost $2000 Canadian plus shipping and taxes.

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I have 10kWh of Rolls S-605 6V (4X) made in 2015 that I picked up used in 2017. They are bulletproof, and I have outright abused them for 7 years with 0.3C charges and discharges. The only thing that's not hard on them is that they live in 72-85°F ambient.

LordGarak said:

They are still doing ok but I think the capacity is already far below the specs,

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Why? Have you tested capacity?

LordGarak said:

the current system doesn't track Ah or kWh consumed.

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This is a system limitation, not a battery issue. You admit that you don't have a monitoring system of any kind, but you still feel confident enough to conclude that "the capacity is already far below the specs."

LordGarak said:

The specific gravity when fully charged is getting a bit on the low end.

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Then it's clearly not being maintained per the Rolls Battery Manual. If you're having problems with a 3-4 year old Rolls FLA system, it's almost certain that the issue is poor maintenance and/or system design. Rolls batteries are very specific about properly charging their batteries and when equalization charges need to occur. I know from personal experience that if I deviate from these rules, my SG drops, and I lose capacity. When that happens, I run an equalization charge.

LordGarak said:

I'm building a whole new 48v system which I'm currently bench testing and will be installed in May. We will keep the 12v system going for a few more years just to run the DC fridge and water pump. The new system will take over all the 120v loads like Starlink.

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So you're a LFP fanatic while shitting on people's FLA choices without actually having used it?

Bold.

LordGarak said:

I've personally seen a number of flooded lead acid batteries get over discharged and freeze. I also know people who have lost their entire bank to over discharging and freezing.

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Personal experience isn't relevant if the incorrect conclusions are drawn. Those aren't battery problems. Those are battery management/design/user problems. If the batteries were over-discharged, then system loads were excessive and/or charging was insufficient. If they froze, then the designer/user didn't properly plan, or there was a system failure that allowed the batteries to over-discharge in conditions where they could be damaged.

You aren't describing battery failures. You're describing system/user failures that caused battery failure/loss.

There are plenty of examples of LFP failures resulting from bad management/design and just outright cell failure. BMSs regularly fail and can result in trashed cells/batteries.

LFP doesn't fix all problems. LFP has a different set of risks and vulnerabilities.

sunshine_eggo said:

I have 10kWh of Rolls S-605 6V (4X) made in 2015 that I picked up used in 2017. They are bulletproof, and I have outright abused them for 7 years with 0.3C charges and discharges. The only thing that's not hard on them is that they live in 72-85°F ambient.



Why? Have you tested capacity?



This is a system limitation, not a battery issue. You admit that you don't have a monitoring system of any kind, but you still feel confident enough to conclude that "the capacity is already far below the specs."



Then it's clearly not being maintained per the Rolls Battery Manual. If you're having problems with a 3-4 year old Rolls FLA system, it's almost certain that the issue is poor maintenance and/or system design. Rolls batteries are very specific about properly charging their batteries and when equalization charges need to occur. I know from personal experience that if I deviate from these rules, my SG drops, and I lose capacity. When that happens, I run an equalization charge.



So you're a LFP fanatic while shitting on people's FLA choices without actually having used it?

Bold.



Personal experience isn't relevant if the incorrect conclusions are drawn. Those aren't battery problems. Those are battery management/design/user problems. If the batteries were over-discharged, then system loads were excessive and/or charging was insufficient. If they froze, then the designer/user didn't properly plan, or there was a system failure that allowed the batteries to over-discharge in conditions where they could be damaged.

You aren't describing battery failures. You're describing system/user failures that caused battery failure/loss.

There are plenty of examples of LFP failures resulting from bad management/design and just outright cell failure. BMSs regularly fail and can result in trashed cells/batteries.

LFP doesn't fix all problems. LFP has a different set of risks and vulnerabilities.

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Yep, driving blind

So back to my issue.......is there an all in one 48v inverter one would recommend for my current setup? I'm guessing I can just wire in a female end to the inverter to plug my current 30A into? Then whenever I need to I can unplug from the inverter and plug into the generator

hunter2093 said:

So back to my issue.......is there an all in one 48v inverter one would recommend for my current setup? I'm guessing I can just wire in a female end to the inverter to plug my current 30A into? Then whenever I need to I can unplug from the inverter and plug into the generator

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No. The concern is the pump. What its surge current? Electric motors can bring high frequency inverters to their knees.

Your explicit power/energy needs are unknown. Recommending anything to you would be a guess at best.

hunter2093 said:

So back to my issue.......is there an all in one 48v inverter one would recommend for my current setup? I'm guessing I can just wire in a female end to the inverter to plug my current 30A into? Then whenever I need to I can unplug from the inverter and plug into the generator

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For your instance, id recommend a low frequency inverter charger like the Samlex EVO 4248. It can surge to 12000 for pump startups. Being split phase you can utilize both sides of your 100amp service panel. The beauty of the Samlex evo is it can take 120v input for the charger while still putting out 240ac to the cabin. Buy the remote controller that goes along with it for programming, its a must have if you need to customize it.

The AIO units will be HF with little to no real surge capabilities. An inverter/charger along with a nice charge controller matched to your array is better in my opinion. Then your solar can stay active while you are gone but inverter can be off. Arrive to your cabin with full battery every time.

sunshine_eggo said:

No. The concern is the pump. What its surge current? Electric motors can bring high frequency inverters to their knees.

Your explicit power/energy needs are unknown. Recommending anything to you would be a guess at best.

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This is the pump I have. It's a Burcam 1/2 hp shallow well jet pump capable of being 120 or 240v

hunter2093 said:

This is the pump I have. It's a Burcam 1/2 hp shallow well jet pump capable of being 120 or 240v

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If you are drawn to the AIO units for their simplicity, there are several pre-wired panel options available. They dont get much attention here as this is a DIY forum, but they deserve some consideration for someone taking on their first system in a remote location and wanting a LF inverter.
Heres an example of an Outback setup. Currently on sale too.

seneysolar said:

If you are drawn to the AIO units for their simplicity, there are several pre-wired panel options available. They dont get much attention here as this is a DIY forum, but they deserve some consideration for someone taking on their first system in a remote location and wanting a LF inverter.
Heres an example of an Outback setup. Currently on sale too.
View attachment 206185

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Thanks I will check this out!!

There is actually an entire section of this forum on that topic:

surge is typically 5X run, so 45A @ 115V or 5200W.

sunshine_eggo said:

surge is typically 5X run, so 45A @ 115V or 5200W.

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Currently it runs off a 3000/4000 w champion generator

hunter2093 said:

Currently it runs off a 3000/4000 w champion generator

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The unit may not pull the max rated amps, but since there's no measurement, there's nothing better to go on. Won't you be pissed if you spend the money, go through the effort and find your new equipment can't power the pump?

The rotating mass of the generator gives them a little margin over the pure electronics of an inverter when a surge is involved. I have a 3/4hp jet pump with about 900W run (4500W surge), and it brought my RZLEB 2000W/4000W surge inverter to its knees. It started okay on my 3500/4350 generator, but the generator output got ugly for a couple seconds (low voltage and low Hz).

A 3000W Multiplus-II with a legit 2X surge (6000W) should power that pump without issue. If you go with a cheap/lightweight inverter, I would not consider anything without at least 4000W max continuous output with the hope that the 5200W is higher than actual, and the 4000W inverter can actually deal with a little surge.

sunshine_eggo said:

The unit may not pull the max rated amps, but since there's no measurement, there's nothing better to go on. Won't you be pissed if you spend the money, go through the effort and find your new equipment can't power the pump?

The rotating mass of the generator gives them a little margin over the pure electronics of an inverter when a surge is involved. I have a 3/4hp jet pump with about 900W run (4500W surge), and it brought my RZLEB 2000W/4000W surge inverter to its knees. It started okay on my 3500/4350 generator, but the generator output got ugly for a couple seconds (low voltage and low Hz).

A 3000W Multiplus-II with a legit 2X surge (6000W) should power that pump without issue. If you go with a cheap/lightweight inverter, I would not consider anything without at least 4000W max continuous output with the hope that the 5200W is higher than actual, and the 4000W inverter can actually deal with a little surge.

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Not all inverters list the time associated with the surge capabilities. Some are only fractions of a second.
This is another reason to go LF inverter. My 4k Aims will surge to 12k for 20 seconds.

seneysolar said:

Not all inverters list the time associated with the surge capabilities. Some are only fractions of a second.
This is another reason to go LF inverter. My 4k Aims will surge to 12k for 20 seconds.

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Yep. My neighbor runs the Sigineer 24/6kW originally for his 3hp Grundfos deep well pump... 4000W RUNNING. Needed that 18k surge!

Between that and my own experience with the 3/4hp pump, I learned early on to not trust the 2X rating of the lightweight, high frequency inverters.

Honestly with that shallow well pump, i dont imagine a large startup. Id comfortably use a 4k LF.
Worst case is a soft start controller after the fact for under $200.