and yet another marine/boat setup--Charging questions

I really appreciate Will making a separate section for marine applications, and thought I would post my question here since I have learned so much but so much more to learn, lol. I have an interesting set up, I believe it can benefit more boat users that are using multiple batteries for trolling motor. I live in a lake community and have a lift on one of the lakes but they do not have shore power available so I have always had to use additional electronics to allow for batteries to charge not only starting battery but also trolling batteries (for me its a 24v, 2 battery setup). There are several vendors that make such devices and they make them to work with lithium batteries, at a high level when charging they place the batteries in parallel and when the starting battery hits 13.2v then it opens up and allows the trolling bank to be charged from the alternator. I used one of these setups for 10 years but ended up getting a new boat and wanted to go with Lithium for the trolling batteries and got one of the newer versions for lithium batteries. Why I thought I would bring this up is one of the nice things about the units is that by placing the batteries in parallel to charge it allows them to equalize across the batteries vs when they are in series.

My question is I purchased to powerurus 100ah batteries with bluetooth and they appear to charged up fine, both my onboard battery charger and home is noco genius which has a lithium setting. One thing that I have noticed when charging from the blue tooth screen is when its close to max charge it displays a cell overvoltage message. I also notice that the charge mos light goes to off, so it appears that the BMS cut the charging off, but that is just me guessing. The other thing I have noticed is internally the voltage difference is .065v, I think the other battery is .05v. One thing I noticed once the charging stops the cells appear to balance more and it goes down to .001v. I've attached a screenshot of one of the batteries when almost fully charged, but thought maybe I could get some insight into how things are working and what the app is telling me.

Thanks

Need to let the cells balance while charging. Set the charging to 13.55v, and hold until cell differential is under 0.010v. Then increase charging by 0.05v. Hold while cells balance again. Repeat until you reach desired charge voltage.

Easy Fix
Do not use bms for protection
Adjust the charge profil to 13.8 volt
Your battery will still charge to 99%
That the battery can do 14.6 do not mean you have to charge to that point
If you charge to 99% you never have cell overload.

A bms is really a last defence to protect your battery.
A cell is 3.65volt max the optimal is really lower its 3.45 /3.55 volt .
Stay in that range and never wil your bms shutdown.
Only by overload the systeem if you pull long time power

If the battery is first use it will need some time to adjust by the bms .
And its slow charging the option to do so.
For the rest cells are not always the same never .
See my own pictures of my cels.

You see one of the picture bms pop up.
That is the bms balance wat is active
What is balance the cells
The first picture you do not see that on of my cell is overload so all is fine .
But this battery i use are from France make.
And are sell by Victron Blue Power shop .
Cost a lot and are running for now about 3 years .

Thanks for the replies but most of us fisherman have on board chargers and what we are really looking for is an onboard charger that may be better suited for Lithiums than most etc. Currently my boat came with a noco genius pro 10 x3, 3 10a charging leads, one for each battery (starting (agm), trolling battery 1 and trolling battery 2). I am going to look at some other units and the charging profiles and I guess I would like to know which one would be better suited, I like the idea of maybe under charging it if that is the better alternative.

Noco genius Pro(what I currently have):

Minn Kota Precision Charger:


PromarinerHD sport (no lithium setting but the GEL setting looks like it may work)

Will look to see what some other options but again keep in mind, most of us that have boats and that are using them for trolling motor batteries usually have on board chargers that we use when we bring the boat back home, we plug in and the multiple bank output charges all of the batteries back up. Just looking for advice on charging profiles when looking at on board charges to help me know what I should be looking for in a charging profile. The promariner gel setting looks like it goes tops out at 14.1 and then floats 13.8, the minn kota lithium setting looks like it tops out at 14.2v, the noco that I now have appears to top out at 14.6v and with the balancing of the cells looks to be to high imho.

I think this could be a big help to us trolling batteries guys just trying to learn and know what to look for, thanks.

bishoptf said:

Thanks for the replies but most of us fisherman have on board chargers and what we are really looking for is an onboard charger that may be better suited for Lithiums than most etc. Currently my boat came with a noco genius pro 10 x3, 3 10a charging leads, one for each battery (starting (agm), trolling battery 1 and trolling battery 2). I am going to look at some other units and the charging profiles and I guess I would like to know which one would be better suited, I like the idea of maybe under charging it if that is the better alternative.

Noco genius Pro(what I currently have):
View attachment 219898
Minn Kota Precision Charger:
View attachment 219901

PromarinerHD sport (no lithium setting but the GEL setting looks like it may work)
View attachment 219903
Will look to see what some other options but again keep in mind, most of us that have boats and that are using them for trolling motor batteries usually have on board chargers that we use when we bring the boat back home, we plug in and the multiple bank output charges all of the batteries back up. Just looking for advice on charging profiles when looking at on board charges to help me know what I should be looking for in a charging profile. The promariner gel setting looks like it goes tops out at 14.1 and then floats 13.8, the minn kota lithium setting looks like it tops out at 14.2v, the noco that I now have appears to top out at 14.6v and with the balancing of the cells looks to be to high imho.

I think this could be a big help to us trolling batteries guys just trying to learn and know what to look for, thanks.

Click to expand...

I use a victron charge on the boat.
This model you can Program all what you like to do.
It go up to 30amps for one battery or split to2 battery
I have set it on 13.2 volts so it only charge to 60/63% on my battery (lipo4) and stop charge
Wy ? You think.
The solar panels wil do the rest .
But if thare is no sun it hold by battery stabel on that 60% if i go to low it can charge more.
With a switch on the bluetooth Program i can use full program and charge to 100% for the winter
This way i can use 2 program.

With the victron app you can select in demo model and see what you can do with out have the hardware.
One thing some hardware need a extra bluetooth unit what you have pay for it so you can Program it .
So not al things work like out the box.

I have 2 model on the boat.
And have test them my self..
Models are

De Blue Smart IP67-lader
Blue Smart IP22 Charger

Even the the big charger like multigrid unite.
Are fully program them.

This is the reason i like Victron stuff.

If you will use your own hardware the profile 14.1 volt are the way to go.
Personal i still find this to high.
A lipo4 battery is really on 13.8 volt 99% charge
And if you do not use the battery 24-7 and only use in the weekend.
And leave the charge on it well you are way
Its not good for a lipo4.

Personal i go for a new unit to charge
So i can shutdown the float option .
You do not need that function on a lipo4
It can even kill it if you do not use some power out of the battery.
I use the float option but in my case.
By fridge and freezer are 24/7 day on.
I life on a boat 24/7 so i use always power on the boat .
This way systeem is more stable .

bishoptf said:

I could get some insight into how things are working and what the app is telling me.

Click to expand...

The app is telling you that there is a small cell inbalance, the BMS detected cell overvolts and turned the charge path off. At that time, near full charge, the cell difference between the highest and lowest was 0.065 volts.
This is quite normal with new batteries and over time the battery will become better balanced. It's not a problem or an indication of failing to charge. The batteries will be achieving almost full charge. Unlike lead batteries there is no disadvantage in not achieving 100% charge.

There are techniques to speed up the balance process by lowering the charge voltage, you don't need to worry about this

Your Noco suggests a charge volts of 14.2 graph or 14.6 text, with no float volts. The battery will charge to BMS cutoff.

Lowering the charge volts too low can cause issues. The ballance process will only take place when the battery is a high state of charge and the BMS normally needs to see cell volts over 3.4 to 3.45, 13.6 to 13.8 volts battery. If the battery does not exceed these voltages, balance process will not occur, and the result over time is a loss of battery usable capacity.

Once you battery is charged expect to see a voltage of 13.4 or higher. This chart gives an approximate estimation for a resting battery, no load or charge.

mikefitz said:

The app is telling you that there is a small cell inbalance, the BMS detected cell overvolts and turned the charge path off. At that time, near full charge, the cell difference between the highest and lowest was 0.065 volts.
This is quite normal with new batteries and over time the battery will become better balanced. It's not a problem or an indication of failing to charge. The batteries will be achieving almost full charge. Unlike lead batteries there is no disadvantage in not achieving 100% charge.

There are techniques to speed up the balance process by lowering the charge voltage, you don't need to worry about this

Your Noco suggests a charge volts of 14.2 graph or 14.6 text, with no float volts. The battery will charge to BMS cutoff.

Lowering the charge volts too low can cause issues. The ballance process will only take place when the battery is a high state of charge and the BMS normally needs to see cell volts over 3.4 to 3.45, 13.6 to 13.8 volts battery. If the battery does not exceed these voltages, balance process will not occur, and the result over time is a loss of battery usable capacity.

Once you battery is charged expect to see a voltage of 13.4 or higher. This chart gives an approximate estimation for a resting battery, no load or charge.
View attachment 219976

Click to expand...

Thanks this helps a lot, I think I would prefer the charger to maybe not go so high but I guess the BMS will do it's thing and I shouldnt worry. I think I like the Minn Kota profile better which goes up to 14.2 but I guess it would probably do the same thing. Here are what the batteries are looking like after charging a few days ago and a little usage, very little.

bishoptf said:

Thanks for the replies but most of us fisherman have on board chargers and what we are really looking for is an onboard charger that may be better suited for Lithiums than most etc. Currently my boat came with a noco genius pro 10 x3, 3 10a charging leads, one for each battery (starting (agm), trolling battery 1 and trolling battery 2). I am going to look at some other units and the charging profiles and I guess I would like to know which one would be better suited, I like the idea of maybe under charging it if that is the better alternative.

Noco genius Pro(what I currently have):

Minn Kota Precision Charger:


PromarinerHD sport (no lithium setting but the GEL setting looks like it may work)

Will look to see what some other options but again keep in mind, most of us that have boats and that are using them for trolling motor batteries usually have on board chargers that we use when we bring the boat back home, we plug in and the multiple bank output charges all of the batteries back up. Just looking for advice on charging profiles when looking at on board charges to help me know what I should be looking for in a charging profile. The promariner gel setting looks like it goes tops out at 14.1 and then floats 13.8, the minn kota lithium setting looks like it tops out at 14.2v, the noco that I now have appears to top out at 14.6v and with the balancing of the cells looks to be to high imho.

I think this could be a big help to us trolling batteries guys just trying to learn and know what to look for, thanks.

Click to expand...

If you are looking for a better charger, then Victron, hands down. Of course there are others, but Victron is the one to choose if you want a step above.
Victron will allow many fine adjustments, instead of just picking "Lithium". Importantly you can adjust the voltage as described by others to give the BMS more time to balance. What is happening in your case is that the charger is charging the battery too fast, and a cell is going over voltage before the BMS has time to balance it. So, what you need to do is have the charger hold a charge that is not quite 100%, high enough for the BMS to start balancing, but not high enough to overcharge that one cell. You can see this in the Bluetooth app. Whatever voltage the battery is at when the BMS give the cell overvoltage, set the charger to just a bit below that. Then let it sit charging at that voltage for a few hours to a few days, until the cell difference is less than 0.01. You might then need to repeat that at a higher voltage to get all the way to 14.6V. Once you have done that, you shouldn't charge to 14.6V every day. Normal charging should be about 14V.

Important to note, cell balance can only happen when the batteries are very nearly fully charged. That is why balance seems to get better after sitting for a while after charging.

Ok so I am intrigued enough to play around with this some, looking for some clarifications. I purchased an IP65 unit, only 5amps but it will not be a primary charger but something that I would like to get the new batteries setup and fully charged. Right now I am still getting the BMS overvoltage warning and shutting down the charging. Once I get the victron what settings would I want to use to try to get things to balance out and continue to charging. One post stated that I would want to use 13.8v charge and then leave it at that voltage until the batteries balance out and then increase.

Just looking for some suggestions to know where to start, thanks.

bishoptf said:

Ok so I am intrigued enough to play around with this some, looking for some clarifications. I purchased an IP65 unit, only 5amps but it will not be a primary charger but something that I would like to get the new batteries setup and fully charged. Right now I am still getting the BMS overvoltage warning and shutting down the charging. Once I get the victron what settings would I want to use to try to get things to balance out and continue to charging. One post stated that I would want to use 13.8v charge and then leave it at that voltage until the batteries balance out and then increase.

Just looking for some suggestions to know where to start, thanks.

Click to expand...

I had the same problem with a new battery
Just charge it to 13.6 volt
The cell have to be 3.45 volt for the bms to work .
But on 13.6 volt i can charge the battery .
And than i leave it to rest .
Next day i charge it up to 13.8 volt and let it rest again.

Still today on 14 volts i have bms warning on 2 cells but i think its a translation Fault and means that the bms is balance the systeem.
I do not have bms over volt warning if that hit 3.7 volt it shutdown the charger.

The problem is that not all bms work the same .
And the protection systeem do not work the same.

Its really try and error.
So long the bms do not shutdown the charge or discharge is will be fine

Still not seeing the cells balance out like I think they should, but what I see is as the voltage goes up one cell always leads the way and the difference grows larger. If I stop the charging they eventually even back out but not sure how I am able to really get each cell close to 100%, any other suggestions or just ignore.

bishoptf said:

Still not seeing the cells balance out like I think they should, but what I see is as the voltage goes up one cell always leads the way and the difference grows larger. If I stop the charging they eventually even back out but not sure how I am able to really get each cell close to 100%, any other suggestions or just ignore.

Click to expand...

Ignore.
It will never be a 100% same cells
Thare will always be some differences between them.


Here are both of mine and you see that its the same.
Non are the same.

Thanks its just one appears to go above 3.4 but maybe 2 of them never reach 3.4 and wasn't sure if I really should care. The noco doesnt ramp down the amperage like I think it should to where it allows them to balance out. If I let it go the one cell just hits peak and the BMS turns off charging. Would be interesting if I had a 1amp noco if that would go slow enought to get things to balance out but will just leave it be for now.

bishoptf said:

Thanks its just one appears to go above 3.4 but maybe 2 of them never reach 3.4 and wasn't sure if I really should care. The noco doesnt ramp down the amperage like I think it should to where it allows them to balance out. If I let it go the one cell just hits peak and the BMS turns off charging. Would be interesting if I had a 1amp noco if that would go slow enought to get things to balance out but will just leave it be for now.

Click to expand...

The bms only balance if the cell go above 3.45 volts
So slow set you float higher on the volts
So your cells go over the 3.45 volt .
That is on a 12 volt battery a float of 14 volt .
By 24 volt battery its 28 volt .
By 48 volt its 56 volts.

But you cells look good balance so its fine for now.
So have fun with your new battery