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100amp sub panel Wire Size

You can put 3x 2/0 THHN and 1x #4 THHN in a 1.5" conduit and not be overfilled by NEC. It's not fun to pull however. I typically run 1" for 100A feeder of #4s, again not overfull.
And I am referring to conduit runs, not nipples.
Thanks for the tip about the #4 feeders.

I did use a conduit fill calculator for that run... there's code and then there's OMG I'm going to have a hernia if I pull any harder....
These days I go big on the conduit... and save money on the hernia surgery.
 
Thanks for the tip about the #4 feeders.

I did use a conduit fill calculator for that run... there's code and then there's OMG I'm going to have a hernia if I pull any harder....
These days I go big on the conduit... and save money on the hernia surgery.

I always oversize conduit from 1 size higher to double size.
 
I always oversize conduit from 1 size higher to double size.
I generally but not always follow this rule when running PVC underground, and I categorically refuse to use 1/2" pvc for any runs over 25' no matter the wire size. Generally, the percentage of allowable fill and the difficulty of the run informs these decisions - if it is right on the line of fill and the run is fairly long with close to maximum degrees of bend, then I will probably go up to the next size.
This is fine for most residential level projects, but you will not be very successful nor impress your project manager on commercial projects if you consistently do things like go up to 2-1/2" conduit for a 3 phase 200A feeder. The expectation is that you are knowledgeable and professional enough to control the variables and get it done within the budget. Sometimes this expectation is reasonable and doable and sometimes it isn't. The use cases vary enough that it is impossible to create a hard and fast rule.
There's a lot of institutional knowledge involved in how to pull wire without it turning into a hernia fest. It has to do with how to make up the "head" to whatever you are using to pull, using wire pulling lube, not making rat maze conduit runs to begin with, and knowing when it is time to bring in the mechanical tugger.
My old 30 year journeyman that I spent most of my apprenticeship under explained it in his usual pithy way: "The pipe comes straight, try to leave it that way. The first rule of pipe bending is: don't." He wasn't big on explanations, it took me a decade of experience to appreciate everything he taught me.
I'll share with you guys one of my insider tricks, picture attached. Klein foaming wire pulling lube in a handy squirt can is wonderful stuff and easy for anyone to obtain and use, even DIYers.
 

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I generally but not always follow this rule when running PVC underground, and I categorically refuse to use 1/2" pvc for any runs over 25' no matter the wire size. Generally, the percentage of allowable fill and the difficulty of the run informs these decisions - if it is right on the line of fill and the run is fairly long with close to maximum degrees of bend, then I will probably go up to the next size.
This is fine for most residential level projects, but you will not be very successful nor impress your project manager on commercial projects if you consistently do things like go up to 2-1/2" conduit for a 3 phase 200A feeder. The expectation is that you are knowledgeable and professional enough to control the variables and get it done within the budget. Sometimes this expectation is reasonable and doable and sometimes it isn't. The use cases vary enough that it is impossible to create a hard and fast rule.
There's a lot of institutional knowledge involved in how to pull wire without it turning into a hernia fest. It has to do with how to make up the "head" to whatever you are using to pull, using wire pulling lube, not making rat maze conduit runs to begin with, and knowing when it is time to bring in the mechanical tugger.
My old 30 year journeyman that I spent most of my apprenticeship under explained it in his usual pithy way: "The pipe comes straight, try to leave it that way. The first rule of pipe bending is: don't." He wasn't big on explanations, it took me a decade of experience to appreciate everything he taught me.
I'll share with you guys one of my insider tricks, picture attached. Klein foaming wire pulling lube in a handy squirt can is wonderful stuff and easy for anyone to obtain and use, even DIYers.


Of course I never ever do anything except residential for myself or help a friend
 
@timselectric back to one of my original questions on adjacent recessed panels, is it ok to run SER through a stud to connect them and derate. I’d extend the circuits (not and neutral only) through a nipple going between the panels.
 
@timselectric back to one of my original questions on adjacent recessed panels, is it ok to run SER through a stud to connect them and derate. I’d extend the circuits (not and neutral only) through a nipple going between the panels.
I would just use a larger (2") nipple for everything.
 
What about snake through FMC? Depends on if the panels are new or existing. If you have two identical ones (with at least one new) you have more flexibility to try to line them up.
Maybe FMC. Good ideas. My 200amp main panel is a GE, planning on getting homeline or QO for sub as all these circuits will need a new breaker anyway for todays code.

Would love to connect these via 6x6 wireway then inverter further to left. Boxes not to scale. lol. The recessed panels make this a challenge and want new sub panel recessed for consistency. Shelving unit coming down this weekend.
IMG_5459.jpeg
 
Sorry haven’t read the whole thread so I may be repeating. Is the wireway shallow enough to meet working space requirements?

What about move that recessed down closer to the wireway, within 24” so it qualifies as a nipple. And then punch a 2” or other large conduit aligned with the bottom large center KO you usually find. And additional ones depending on how many conductors you pass through.

Do the same with the main panel to go to the wireway
 
Sorry haven’t read the whole thread so I may be repeating. Is the wireway shallow enough to meet working space requirements?

What about move that recessed down closer to the wireway, within 24” so it qualifies as a nipple. And then punch a 2” or other large conduit aligned with the bottom large center KO you usually find. And additional ones depending on how many conductors you pass through.

Do the same with the main panel to go to the wireway
I would get a 6x6 which would be compliant. Can lower sub panel, no problem. Just need to figure how to get the cables from recessed panels into back of wireway.
 
Is the wireway shallow enough to meet working space requirements?
If by wireway, the OP is talking about a gutter there is no way an inspector would call him out on working clearance in that spot. We do this every single day without any issue at my company. Gutters are this weird meta-hybrid thing that is sometimes an enclosure and sometimes a conduit and inspectors know it's being used like a conduit in this case so they wouldn't call something like working clearance. Of course YMMV, but if that was called, I would be calling the building official.
 
If by wireway, the OP is talking about a gutter there is no way an inspector would call him out on working clearance in that spot. We do this every single day without any issue at my company. Gutters are this weird meta-hybrid thing that is sometimes an enclosure and sometimes a conduit and inspectors know it's being used like a conduit in this case so they wouldn't call something like working clearance. Of course YMMV, but if that was called, I would be calling the building official.

NEC specifically codifies an official depth for wireway somewhere. There are several possibilities for what you're seeing in practice
- Your company does something reasonable, either intentionally or accidentally by default
- Your AHJ is reasonable and doesn't care if you are a few inches over.

If you did a 12" out wireway you would be over the depth. But that would look ugly enough/obviously dangerous enough that good workers would not do it that way. And the AHJ would call it out if they saw it.
 
I would get a 6x6 which would be compliant. Can lower sub panel, no problem. Just need to figure how to get the cables from recessed panels into back of wireway.

What about get a 9" deep one, recess the excess into the drywall? So you are couple inches above and couple inches below. Then have conduit or smaller depth of wireway to jump over the studs.

The advantage of this is that you would not have to do a 90 degree turn inside the wall to enter the back of a surface mount wireway. The disadvantage is that it would look a little ugly with the conduits jumping over the surface, if you ended up using that.

Maybe you can get a metal shop to fabricate something to do the jump, or there is a standard prefab section type for this application, that you can buy and then join with regular rectangular profile sections.

(I don't know if this is an actual way people do it, just something I've theorycrafted as a DIY scrub).

Another idea I had is to put a second wireway in the wall behind the first one, and then join them with some really wide diameter conduit close nipples and fish through those. I'm not sure that is code compliant because the rear wireway is not accessible anymore. Depends on if you can call it accessible through those nipples.
 
I have custom fabricated wireways in this manner.
If you open the back of the large wireway to the same as the recessed wireway, it's still accessible, as they become one wireway.
 
I have custom fabricated wireways in this manner.
If you open the back of the large wireway to the same as the recessed wireway, it's still accessible, as they become one wireway.
That makes sense, that’s why I think that sounds better and way more convenient than joining with conduit. Do you have any pictures handy?

I briefly looked through an Eaton prefab pieces catalog and didn’t see obvious pieces to directly solve this (ie adapt a recessed 9” to dock with a shallower 3” surface one jumping over a stud)

I believe most AHJ will accept custom bent and fabricated metal wire ways? From the steel types that are allowed for metal boxes
 
That makes sense, that’s why I think that sounds better and way more convenient than joining with conduit. Do you have any pictures handy?

I briefly looked through an Eaton prefab pieces catalog and didn’t see obvious pieces to directly solve this (ie adapt a recessed 9” to dock with a shallower 3” surface one jumping over a stud)

I believe most AHJ will accept custom bent and fabricated metal wire ways? From the steel types that are allowed for metal boxes
I'm sure that pictures exist, but have no idea where they are now.
As long as you are piecing together UL listed parts, made by the same manufacturer, you should not have any problems with an inspector. (At least I never have)
When I needed something more custom, I used a local fab shop that UL listed what they made. "THE ELECTRICAL BOX COMPANY"
I wonder if they survived covid? It's been a while since I've done that type of work. But they could make anything that I could dream up.
 
is it ok to run SER through a stud to connect them and derate
A potential problem I see with this is getting a connector onto the wire. I would just use the largest practical nipple for everything, or failing that install two of them one for the feeder wire and one for everything else.
 
What about get a 9" deep one, recess the excess into the drywall? So you are couple inches above and couple inches below. Then have conduit or smaller depth of wireway to jump over the studs.
I have done something along these lines many times to get out of recessed panels.
I believe your maximum allowable difference in depth is 6" before it becomes an obstruction to working clearance.
 

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