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Question About Preventing Grid Backfeed

After all this discussion here and other threads guess I’m going to continue down the off-grid route. My 6000xp has been great, might just need to double or triple it up and store more energy. Was hoping the hybrids could truly stop anything going past the CTs.

Would like to see if the new Hoymiles string inverter with PLC meter device that attaches to lines from POCO meter could react faster but I doubt it.
 
What is the budget?
The two large items are a 40 amp stoven and a 30 amp dryer. Everything else is lights and plugs (standard stuff - microwave, occasional hair dryer, computers and electronic hardware, LED lights, etc.)


I don't think what I *need* is a unicorn, I think what I *want* most definitely is.
You have basically specified a home with an average level of electrification, and you would basically need a 10kW inverter and at least 10kWh of battery to run all that. That is pretty expensive in the scheme of hybrid

There is a difference between power and energy too. Stove takes a lot of power to run but doesn't use much energy. Dryer takes both. Dryer can be halved in energy and quartered in power by going to a heat pump dryer (also at the cost of taking more time to try)

Those 120V loads will mostly take low power but lots of cumulative energy. With the exception of the hair dryer and microwave which could well 1800W or VA. I think they are required to stay below 1800VA to be OK to run on household 15A circuits

You could put furnace air handler on the list of slow and steady loads that add up.

Trimming off the big power items will allow inverter to be cut in cost. Low power/high energy is most compatible with ROI. Because you want a lot of energy use to potentially offset (energy = money avoided to pay on bills), and low power allows smaller wires, lower output current batteries, smaller inverter.

The entry level decent inverters are like 6000XP or SRNE10K (there was another 10K a lot of people here were testing, I don’t keep track of those in detail because I am interested only in CEC and 9540 tier hybrid inverters for my home). One 5kWh battery would be enough to serve all but the dryer and stove stably during the day, and likely you will have close to 5kWh to draw from overnight. My house takes about 500W on average, probably down to 200W when people are asleep.

3 or 5kWh is also a standard size node for vendors (5kWh is server rack). Which falls out from the size class of the battery cells and from the power and capacity requirements. In the past the cheapest Enphase battery has been 3kwh and maybe 2kW of output. Now their latest starting increment is their battery named the 5P, which is 5 kWh / 3.84kW. While I don’t have interest in Enphase, I have found a lot of value in following their products and doing competitive analysis, since they pick products to sell that can get them the most mainstream customers. On average a NEM3 install likely includes a 5P, though a Battery 3 is probably sufficient to power all 120V daytime loads and buffer the solar

I would love to have an inverter - or components - that is relatively small for PV (I'm only planning about 2.5kW solar)

What is driving this 2.5kW limit? That is 6 panels.

You can try punching into PVwatts to get a month by month (ie seasonal) daily output from those panels.

but has the ability to provide enough battery power (watts and amps wise) AND be able to supplement grid power during peak usage time. All without the risk of backfeeding the grid.
The conclusion of the above thread is that you can’t really shrink the inverter to achieve inverter power output reduction with a double conversion system (and I sort of sketched a mathematical proof when I figured this out for myself). And you can’t use a parallel system because that can backfeed.

You can use a double conversion system to keep up on energy basis.
 
Would like to see if the new Hoymiles string inverter with PLC meter device that attaches to lines from POCO meter could react faster but I doubt it.
It would have to somehow react faster than the POCO meter.. which isn't really possible at this point. It would have to somehow predict the dropping of a load and adjust it's output before the load drops.

The only way to not get caught exporting is to never "export" more onto your AC lines than your 100% always on minimum loads. If you have something in your house that always uses 100 watts.. and never turns off or uses less than that, you could cover that load and be safe. But, if it ever drops off for some reason, you will export, briefly, until the exporting devices notices and adjusts.

For example.. in my house, I've got about 600 watts of always on loads. I cover about 200 watts of it using a GTIL. That gives me some safety if one of the loads stops running for some reason. I also have my GTIL set to NOT turn back on after a power outage, if it loses power, it turns off and stays off using a manual GFCI plug. I don't manually turn it back on until after I go around and make sure all my loads are back on.
 
large inductive load on the aio, drop grid tie, drop load, measure input of aio with loads on that input circuit?
Maybe I am misunderstanding something.
If you drop the grid connection, there won't be anything to measure on the input.
 
Maybe I am misunderstanding something.
If you drop the grid connection, there won't be anything to measure on the input.
If the input has a load other than the inverter I should have something to measure, the back feed will try to feed those loads and give my CT something to measure
Edit late now my brain is mush
 
Correct.

Only becomes an issue if 5000 watts, plus whatevers in your battery at the time isn't enough to power the loads of the inverter.
This does not really increase the power available except when the battery is flat. You would need bespoke real time power management (like, control loop adjusting output voltage to balance the power with the battery). That is not present in the chargeverter style double conversion designs
 
Would like to see if the new Hoymiles string inverter with PLC meter device that attaches to lines from POCO meter could react faster but I doubt it.
The energy meters that have to do some analog to digital protocol conversion are going to have to claw back latency from the jaws of that complex processing stack before any control loop is able to take a stab at it.
 
The energy meters that have to do some analog to digital protocol conversion are going to have to claw back latency from the jaws of that complex processing stack before any control loop is able to take a stab at it.
Yeah. Hope is dwindling.
 
This does not really increase the power available except when the battery is flat. You would need bespoke real time power management (like, control loop adjusting output voltage to balance the power with the battery). That is not present in the chargeverter style double conversion designs
The 5000 watts from the Chargeverter will increase the available DC power availability on your bus by 5000 watts plus what your batteries can deliver. It's not 100% perfect balance, but it will increase the DC power significantly.

Am I mistaken in this, @timselectric ?
 
No risk of exporting, in SBU mode. The inverter is never in parallel with the grid.
But if they're not in parallel then I can't do grid assist, right? So SBU won't be for me since I don't want either/or. It seems like the secondary charger with double conversion might be my way to go and I'll just have to eat the conversion costs from efficiency loss.

If I do a secondary charger, what specs should I look for in my inverter to make sure my AC-out can supply enough?
 
If the input has a load other than the inverter I should have something to measure, the back feed will try to feed those loads and give my CT something to measure
Edit late now my brain is mush
If the input doesn't see the grid, it's going to disconnect from it.
It can't do anything without seeing the grid.
 
It would have to somehow react faster than the POCO meter.. which isn't really possible at this point. It would have to somehow predict the dropping of a load and adjust it's output before the load drops.

The only way to not get caught exporting is to never "export" more onto your AC lines than your 100% always on minimum loads. If you have something in your house that always uses 100 watts.. and never turns off or uses less than that, you could cover that load and be safe. But, if it ever drops off for some reason, you will export, briefly, until the exporting devices notices and adjusts.

For example.. in my house, I've got about 600 watts of always on loads. I cover about 200 watts of it using a GTIL. That gives me some safety if one of the loads stops running for some reason. I also have my GTIL set to NOT turn back on after a power outage, if it loses power, it turns off and stays off using a manual GFCI plug. I don't manually turn it back on until after I go around and make sure all my loads are back on.
I’ve got an always on load of 1.4kw from a pool pump. When my EV stops charging at 11kw or Dryer stops, sure something would be picked up by POCO with hybrid.
 
If I do a secondary charger, what specs should I look for in my inverter to make sure my AC-out can supply enough?
FWIW, timelectric’s personally double conversion set up is only intended to top off a battery array with grid energy, it isn’t intended to boost power capacity.

Can you just chop off a subpanel for your 120V loads and do 6000XP SBU with a 5kWh battery? That is enough power for it. I doubt you can get cheaper/simpler than this

Also, this is a good check to see if a basic system is too rich for your blood. This will cost about $3000 in core inverter and battery, before balance of system.
 
What is the budget?
I knew I was forgetting something in my response! 😂
I don't really have a budget anymore. I was hoping to get the main components for $1500 or so, but after starting this research, I don't think it's going to be possible. So really, it's just going to be as inexpensive as possible to get what I need (or at least to get started).
You have basically specified a home with an average level of electrification, and you would basically need a 10kW inverter and at least 10kWh of battery to run all that. That is pretty expensive in the scheme of hybrid
I was thinking something around 8-12kw is what I would get depending on specs. I would love something like a 200ah battery or more, but I will probably start with 100ah or so and build up from there.
What is driving this 2.5kW limit? That is 6 panels.
Initial calculations, space limits, cost, how much I want to offset
You can use a double conversion system to keep up on energy basis.
At this point I think I'm going to go with an off-grid and a secondary charger to provide the grid assist without concerns of backfeeding.
 
FWIW, timelectric’s personally double conversion set up is only intended to top off a battery array with grid energy, it isn’t intended to boost power capacity.
Only because I have it setup that way.
It's all in how you set it up.
I only use it when the battery is low. But it can be used at a higher SOC.
 
At this point I think I'm going to go with an off-grid and a secondary charger to provide the grid assist without concerns of backfeeding.
That is not "grid assist". Grid assist increases amps available (grid assists when inverter is overloaded). In your setup, you are limited to whatever your inverter can supply.

6000xp is either-or, but not both (inverter, grid), so is safe.
 
That is not "grid assist". Grid assist increases amps available (grid assists when inverter is overloaded). In your setup, you are limited to whatever your inverter can supply.

6000xp is either-or, but not both (inverter, grid), so is safe.
True
This isn't the real grid assist functionality.
But the OP wants the grid to assist the undersized solar array.
While remaining inside of the inverters limitations.
 
I would love something like a 200ah battery or more, but I will probably start with 100ah or so and build up from there.
Note that the wall batteries, which use 280ah or so cells instead of 100ah, can be cheaper on a kWh basis. Server rack batteries also take up more floor space unless you flip them on end (which is allowed for most of them). I don’t know if there is a value priced flip up rack.

Initial calculations, space limits, cost, how much I want to offset
Panels are pretty cheap, and with 6 panels the fixed labor overhead of building out the conduit to carry the DC (per code compliance) does not get amortized well. The main constraint I can think of here is that more panels are hard to hide if your going full guerilla.

At this point I think I'm going to go with an off-grid and a secondary charger to provide the grid assist without concerns of backfeeding.
I don’t think SBU with the 4-5kW of inverter you can feed with a 100ah battery is that bad. Assuming you split off the 240V loads. You can probably set it up to transfer to grid once at the end of the day, for most days

And note double conversion means you are losing 15% or so efficiency when you are running from grid, which can happen bc you ran out of battery, or because you misconfigured something (and it is much easier to do this with double conversion than SBU). So that’s a 15% higher electrical bill off a high base rate.

The 15% buys an extra layer of insurance (not thought to be needed with 6000XP, which has UL1741 unlike the inverters that have burned people here), and smoother transition between on and off grid (but I think a lot of people run computers etc with an SBU transfer).
 
FWIW, timelectric’s personally double conversion set up is only intended to top off a battery array with grid energy, it isn’t intended to boost power capacity.
Only because I have it setup that way.
It's all in how you set it up.
I only use it when the battery is low. But it can be used at a higher SOC.
Even the way you have it set up.. assuming you have it always turned on and set for 48v and 100amps and aren't turning it on with some type of relay ->

If an inverter load is heavy enough that your battery dips below 48v temporarily, the Chargeverter is going to instantly kick in and deliver up to 100 amps at 48v if needed by the load(inverter).. as it will be trying it's best to maintain 48v. Once the load lessons, and battery voltage moves back up above 48v, the Chargeverter will be doing nothing.
 

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