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Feedback on 24v system please

kenfused

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Nov 2, 2022
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Hi, I’m looking to design a small system with 4 panels, 260w each, using 24v system. Can. You please look to see if any improvements/ suggestions? Any ideas on favorite SCC, Battery, inverters as well. What gauge wires should I be using? What am I missing? Thank you!

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That matches very oddly close to my system. I made my own battery though. I just upgrade my wiring due to a melting buss bar incident to 4 AWG welding wire for battery and inverter connections. The stuff you have pictures looks good to me.
 
You can't put those 4 panels into that MPPT, they're combined VoC is 150.4v, you'd need an MPPT capable of 200v input which you're unlikely to find. If you already have the panels then you can get 2 100v MPPTs and run them in parallel.

Edit: sorry ignore me I completely failed to see your 2P2S setup. That should be fine. It's too early in the morning still for my brain to be engaged.
 
I wouldn't bother with one of those little black breakers, they are notoriously bad, just get another DIN rail mounted one like a Tomzn. As for battery your best bang for buck will be DIY followed by a server rack battery if you can find one. I built a 280ah 24v battery for around £1050 for cells/bms and box:

 
Does the sizing on my breakers and fuses look OK? Any suggestions on wire gauge?
Thanks
 
MPPT to battery should be 8AWG
Battery to inverter should be 2AWG at least, 1AWG would be better.

Fuses look OK and I've got no complaints on the breaker as long as you use a decent quality breaker and not go super cheap. I've been happy with my T-Tocas breakers, have even tripped a couple a couple times on accident and they worked fine.
 
MPPT to battery should be 8AWG
Battery to inverter should be 2AWG at least, 1AWG would be better.

Fuses look OK and I've got no complaints on the breaker as long as you use a decent quality breaker and not go super cheap. I've been happy with my T-Tocas breakers, have even tripped a couple a couple times on accident and they worked fine.
Why exactly 2 AWG vs an 4 AWG? 2000W should have a max pull of 83.3A on a 24V system (not taking in account for surge). 4 AWG can handle 95A. Is it just because it doesn't meet the 1.2 to 1.25 overage for circuit ratings?
 
2000W on the AC output side of the 24VDc inverter will have DC input current of about 98A due to inverter efficiency, 85% is typical.
 
I went with 4awg for my identical setup. 2awg would be better but I'll rarely be pulling more than 600w max through the inverter. Just make sure it's pure copper and not CCA.
 
2000 ac watts / .85 conversion factor / 20 volts low cutoff = 117.647058824 inverter amps
117.647058824 inverter amps / .8 fuse headroom = 147.058823529 fuse amps
That is right on the limit of pure copper 4 awg wire with 90C insulation by ABYC rules.
If it was me I would go to 2 awg to minimize the ripple.
If you are going for NEC rules then 1/0 awg is indicated.
 
2000 ac watts / .85 conversion factor / 20 volts low cutoff = 117.647058824 inverter amps
117.647058824 inverter amps / .8 fuse headroom = 147.058823529 fuse amps
That is right on the limit of pure copper 4 awg wire with 90C insulation by ABYC rules.
If it was me I would go to 2 awg to minimize the ripple.
If you are going for NEC rules then 1/0 awg is indicated.
Thank you for the explanation. Do you have a source or is this just a tribal knowledge thing? Not questioning, just wanna see what other stuff I can learn as well.
 
Thank you for the explanation. Do you have a source or is this just a tribal knowledge thing? Not questioning, just wanna see what other stuff I can learn as well.
Glad you asked.

The conversion efficiency is tribal knowledge based on test reports from forum users over the years.
My own inverter tested to ~.89% efficiency but its a Samlex PST which is considered teir 1 for HF=high frequency inverters.

20 volts low cutoff should be self explanatory.

2000 ac watts should also be self explanatory.
 
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Adding to what I've already said the .85 conversion factor is also used for top of the line LF=flow frequency inverters.
Even though they can approach .95 efficiency they also have significant surge capacity which the low conversion factor covers.
 
THanks, so 8 gauge everywhere, except 2awg from battery to inverter would be ok?
 
As your panels are on a 20A breaker you could get away with 10awg depending on the distance between them and the charge controller.

8awg between charge controller and battery will be good:


Unless you're pulling close to max from your inverter regularly then 4awg should be fine but 2awg gives a little safety margin. @John Frum gave the worst possible case which is best practice to spec to but in reality you won't hit those conditions. Your BMS low voltage cutoff should probably be well above 20v for example, and my Giandel 2kw gets 92% efficiency when I measured it.

Edit: that said if you use a 150A breaker then you should spec the cable to match, ie 2awg. I use a 125A breaker in my setup.
 
One thought about the solar charge controller connections. I believe the SCC can be damaged if live solar panels are connected to it without a battery connection first. Using a breaker from the SCC to the battery puts you at risk for that situation if you manually trip the 50 amp breaker when the din breaker is still connected. Using a 50 amp AML fuse like the type going to the inverter would limit that scenario.
 
Does the sizing on my breakers and fuses look OK? Any suggestions on wire gauge?
Thanks
Your MCB from SCC to Battery should be at least 20AMP, not 50 AMP. the current that will flow from the SCC to battery is almost the same from Solar Panel to SCC. and then from battery to inverter, it should be at least 90 or 100 amp. if you calculate the max current that will flow from battery to inverter it is only 83.33 max. Since you cant find 90amp you can go to the next available Amperage.
 
Your MCB from SCC to Battery should be at least 20AMP, not 50 AMP. the current that will flow from the SCC to battery is almost the same from Solar Panel to SCC. and then from battery to inverter, it should be at least 90 or 100 amp. if you calculate the max current that will flow from battery to inverter it is only 83.33 max. Since you cant find 90amp you can go to the next available Amperage.
It's fine to have slightly larger breakers so long as the cable is specced for the amps. And the current can be different between panels and mppt and mppt to battery. Not sure where you got that idea, if voltage goes down current goes up. It's a 40a mppt so 50a breaker is reasonable.
 
Your MCB from SCC to Battery should be at least 20AMP, not 50 AMP. the current that will flow from the SCC to battery is almost the same from Solar Panel to SCC.
Agree with ShaneC above for 50 Amps.
The thing that is similar in and out of the SCC is power (watts) and not current (amps). With 4 x 260 watt panels the peak power is 1040 watts at STC (and could even be a bit higher on a cold bright day). Vmp for the 2S arrangement is 61.4 volts so the max power would be 16.9 amps. The SCC adjusts the voltage to get max power (MPPT).

However, the voltage heading out of the SCC is fixed to the voltage of the battery which for a "24volt" LFP battery can range from 29.2 volts (3.65v per cell) to 20 volts (2.5v per cell) at the extremes. So if 1040 watts are coming out of the SCC (it will be less, but 100% efficient for simplicity) it will push a range of 36.6 amps at 29.2 volts or 52 amps! at 20 volts. (Note that this is the same "20 volts low cutoff" in the first line of John Frum's information-packed post #11 above)

An SCC with max 40 amps is fine because a) you are unlikely to hit conditions of 52 amps IRL and b) the SCC will just peak out at 40 amps and won't hurt anything, and c) a SCC with higher amps is more expensive. However, it is very possible that your system will occasionally hit the 40 amp output limit so a 50 Amp minimum fuse is reasonable.

When sizing fuses and breakers, we can make just 2 main mistakes: 1) If the fuse rating is too big, a too-small wire could be the weak point of the circuit when the amps are high and and burn (which is dangerous) or 2) If the fuse is too small, it can blow when it did not need to (which is a nuisance). From this perspective, there is often a rather large rage of "acceptable fuse/breaker values. The 20 amp breaker on the input side of the SCC is getting close to nuisance (as 17 amps is likely) so bumping up to 25 or 30 amps is all fine because the wires can handle it as ShaneC noted.

then from battery to inverter, it should be at least 90 or 100 amp. if you calculate the max current that will flow from battery to inverter it is only 83.33 max.

Using the same principles John Frum's posts for the inverter amperage are valuable because while 83.33 amps is the right math for 2000 watts by 24 volts, each of the adjustments he notes are trying to avoid possible nuisance situations. If you attach 2 heat guns to the inverter and draw 2000 watts, it will do what it has to provide 2000 AC watts, but because it is not efficient (0.85 std or 0.92 per ShaneC) and the battery may be low (20 volts in the extreme) and the inverter is actually capable of surging to 3000 watts, John's calculation will help avoid ever having a nuisance pop of the breaker.
 
what busbar do I need? 100A or 150A?
Bus bars get fun... A lot of the cheaper ones will claim 150A but that's across the whole strip. Each individual connection might max at 63a or lower for the little M4 or M6 screws. You want one with atleast an M8 screw for both your battery and inverter connections. It's really hard to find legit specs for bus bars unless you're willing to spend big bucks on the high brands
 
Bus bars get fun... A lot of the cheaper ones will claim 150A but that's across the whole strip. Each individual connection might max at 63a or lower for the little M4 or M6 screws. You want one with atleast an M8 screw for both your battery and inverter connections. It's really hard to find legit specs for bus bars unless you're willing to spend big bucks on the high brands
how about this?
 

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