Advice on brand and type of battery

[Tomthumb62]

Here now at 21:44 (utc rome), the situation is this:

Tomorrow morning I'm sure the soc will be at 19% 20%

I don’t think you’ve stated yet how you’re measuring SOC. If you’re basing it on voltage, then you can ignore that. It’s so inaccurate right now due to your damaged battery. Most SCC “measure” SOC based upon voltage. Kinda an estimate if your batteries are healthy, but very unreliable if your batteries are shot.

 

[frankz66]

I don’t think you’ve stated yet how you’re measuring SOC. If you’re basing it on voltage, then you can ignore that. It’s so inaccurate right now due to your damaged battery. Most SCC “measure” SOC based upon voltage. Pseudoaccurate if your batteries are healthy.

Sorry, as written I'm not an expert, but I see what the epever regulator gives me, so I assume SOC. I don't think the software provides anything else, I'm based only on that value

 

[Tomthumb62]

Sorry, as written I'm not an expert, but I see what the epever regulator gives me, so I assume SOC. I don't think the software provides anything else, I'm based only on that value

No worries. I’m no expert either. But you can’t rely upon your epever giving you anything reliable of SOC for a deeply damaged battery like you have.

When you get new batteries, get one of these:

Off-grid Solar Battery Monitors

Building a vehicle mounted solar power system? Let me help.

www.mobile-solarpower.com

Or Will currently doesn’t have this one listed on his site but has recommended it in the past:

Renogy 500A Battery Monitor with Shunt, High and Low Voltage Programmable Alarm, Voltage Range 10V-120V and up to 500A, 20ft Shielded Cable, Compatible with 12V Lithium Sealed, Gel, Flooded Batteries https://a.co/d/7IS5RBe

You still need to calibrate these kinds of monitors and use them properly, but you can get very accurate readings to the real SOC of your battery. Lots of YouTube videos to explain.

Edited to say, with a battery monitor that has an alarm, like the Renogy, you can program it to beep an alarm when you’ve used X amount of amp hours. Say your battery bank is 300Ah, at 50% you can safely use 150Ah. So when your alarm goes off, you know you’ve used 150Ah in your bank and you either need to turn off the load or hook up an AC charger, whether from the grid power or a generator. If you don’t, then you’ll damage your expensive batteries and end up back where you are now. The monitor can help you avoid that.

 

[RaySE]

Sorry but if I put all these batteries when will I ever be able to charge them ???

You were saying you read 230W to 250W on an average day, not? Let's say that is what your SCC can draw from your current system.

4h of sun x 250w is 1000w p day what you can store. Before we have determined that you use 1080W a per day.
So you are already short. Like TomThumb62 said you will need more battery capacity to cover cloudy days.
And you will need more panels to charge that larger capacity. --> if you don't add panels you won't get to charge to full capacity. And that also will damage your batteries over time.

If you have place try to add at least 1 panel. 3x180 = 540W --> in reality maybe 450w. x 4h of sun is 1800wh But in Italy you should have a little bit more daylight hours not? In the extra hours your SCC won't be able to draw 450w but at least enough so your load doesn't effect your batteries.
And then as said earlier more storage to give you a buffer. But think of your max battery capacity together with your possible extra panel. You can put in 300Ah of storage but if you don't expand your panels you will never charge that to a 100%

make calculations like this: 3x180= 540 reality 450w max x 4h is 1800W.

450W in 12V system is 37,5A --> you will need another SCC
450W in 24V system is 18,75 --> SCC is fine but you will need another inverter a 24V-->230V (do not connect your inverter to 1 battery of 24V setup !!)

 

[frankz66]

You were saying you read 230W to 250W on an average day, not? Let's say that is what your SCC can draw from your current system.

4h of sun x 250w is 1000w p day what you can store. Before we have determined that you use 1080W a per day.
So you are already short. Like TomThumb62 said you will need more battery capacity to cover cloudy days.
And you will need more panels to charge that larger capacity. --> if you don't add panels you won't get to charge to full capacity. And that also will damage your batteries over time.

If you have place try to add at least 1 panel. 3x180 = 540W --> in reality maybe 450w. x 4h of sun is 1800wh But in Italy you should have a little bit more daylight hours not? In the extra hours your SCC won't be able to draw 450w but at least enough so your load doesn't effect your batteries.
And then as said earlier more storage to give you a buffer. But think of your max battery capacity together with your possible extra panel. You can put in 300Ah of storage but if you don't expand your panels you will never charge that to a 100%

make calculations like this: 3x180= 540 reality 450w max x 4h is 1800W.

450W in 12V system is 37,5A --> you will need another SCC
450W in 24V system is 18,75 --> SCC is fine but you will need another inverter a 24V-->230V (do not connect your inverter to 1 battery of 24V setup !!)

Thank you for answering, but I think the battery is limited to its internal resistance, that is, if the panels deliver a maximum of 360 watts, it will take what you need. I carried out stress tests, I carried out a load of 350 watts and the battery held up, the panels delivered 18 amps. Also the starting point: a 500 watt flex, to try the starting point worked. So, I have a feeling that if I had to upgrade the panels the absorption would always be that of 250 watts. Only once did it happen that I had turned off the system including the panels for 1 day, the battery was low. Turning it all on at 11.00 am, the panels delivered a power of almost 300 watts, never happened. I know that the batteries have an internal resistance for charging, and as if I had to fill up on gasoline to a car with a 30-liter pump per second but with a small flow passage, so as far as I understand, the maximum that can absorb this battery that I have c100 would be about 18 amps, the panels give more but the battery is limited.That's what I understood! I attach the image where only 1 time this type of charge happened.

 

[frankz66]

No worries. I’m no expert either. But you can’t rely upon your epever giving you anything reliable of SOC for a deeply damaged battery like you have.

When you get new batteries, get one of these:

Off-grid Solar Battery Monitors

Building a vehicle mounted solar power system? Let me help.

www.mobile-solarpower.com

Or Will currently doesn’t have this one listed on his site but has recommended it in the past:

Renogy 500A Battery Monitor with Shunt, High and Low Voltage Programmable Alarm, Voltage Range 10V-120V and up to 500A, 20ft Shielded Cable, Compatible with 12V Lithium Sealed, Gel, Flooded Batteries https://a.co/d/7IS5RBe

You still need to calibrate these kinds of monitors and use them properly, but you can get very accurate readings to the real SOC of your battery. Lots of YouTube videos to explain.

Edited to say, with a battery monitor that has an alarm, like the Renogy, you can program it to beep an alarm when you’ve used X amount of amp hours. Say your battery bank is 300Ah, at 50% you can safely use 150Ah. So when your alarm goes off, you know you’ve used 150Ah in your bank and you either need to turn off the load or hook up an AC charger, whether from the grid power or a generator. If you don’t, then you’ll damage your expensive batteries and end up back where you are now. The monitor can help you avoid that.

Thanks for the indications, but I wanted to point out that the battery is new and it has always behaved like this, like its predecessor a battery equal to make and model but with a capacity of 80 amps. I will evaluate the purchase for the instrument well. However, in many people he told me that the soc is unreliable, but if that were so I don't understand how the epever regulator opted to choose this type charge control.
What do you think of this : shorturl.at/eFOZ6

 

[RaySE]

However, in many people he told me that the soc is unreliable, but if that were so I don't understand how the epever regulator opted to choose this type charge control.

As far as I know most SCC's display your battery voltage, however it is an indication, it isn't always very accurate.

 

[frankz66]

As far as I know most SCC's display your battery voltage, however it is an indication, it isn't always very accurate.

Then is it correct to say that considering that SOC measurements are very indicative, as someone has previously replicated I am frying the battery ?? I actually think that after so many users telling me the same thing, the manufacturer as epever is based on this measurement method. I say this always as ignorant or rather as an inexperienced, because if the measurements should be done accurately is there a regulator that does it? Thank you always for your answers.

 

[Tomthumb62]

Then is it correct to say that considering that SOC measurements are very indicative, as someone has previously replicated I am frying the battery ?? I actually think that after so many users telling me the same thing, the manufacturer as epever is based on this measurement method. I say this always as ignorant or rather as an inexperienced, because if the measurements should be done accurately is there a regulator that does it? Thank you always for your answers.

Yes there is a way to accurately measure SOC. I mentioned it in other comments. You want a “shunt battery monitor”. Look at my other comments for details. The renogy one is reasonably priced with good features. You still need to calibrate it and use it properly, but it’s very accurate compared to basing upon voltage. The monitor can read how many amp hours are going into your battery OR how many are coming out of the battery. If you want to know both, either get two monitors or write up a switch so that you can measure one or the other. You can’t measure both at once with one monitor, you need two separate monitors for that.

 

[RaySE]

I am sorry to say that I think it is not so much your Epever SCC but you as a user. Because you've discharged your battery way beyond its capacity you have ruined it. Your SCC is probarbly doing the best it can but because it reads fluctuating and maybe 'wrong' values because of internal damage it might be overcharging as well. So yes frying it.
You say somewhere the battery is new but you can kill a battery in one night.

Maybe it makes sence to fabricate a new simple setup. where you put a load on your SCC and/or on a different battery on a day you can constantly monitor what everything is doing and take measurements all day long. That way you can test your SCC if it is still okay and learn to understand what it does and when.

So maybe get an volt meter (multimeter) and an amp meter
Switch loads on and off during sun hours and darkness. So you can see and learn what your SCC is doing.

I've been playing around like that for months to 'watch and learn' I ordered a very cheap PWM from Amazon and hooked it up to 1 and or 2 old car batteries. A PWM is really not the best to get and I won't trust it on expensive batteries but I've been able to play around with it as I liked. If I would have done something 'stupid' I would have blown up a 8euro piece. To bad but that's how you learn.
Now that I've gattered some knowledge I'm about to order a quality MPPT and quality batteries for a backup system.
Later this is to be expanded to switch to solar only.

 

[RaySE]

Yes there is a way to accurately measure SOC. I mentioned it in other comments. You want a “shunt battery monitor”. Look at my other comments for details. The renogy one is reasonably priced with good features. You still need to calibrate it and use it properly, but it’s very accurate compared to basing upon voltage. The monitor can read how many amp hours are going into your battery OR how many are coming out of the battery. If you want to know both, either get two monitors or write up a switch so that you can measure one or the other. You can’t measure both at once with one monitor, you need two separate monitors for that.

I agree but shouldn't he test his battery in the first place?
If the battery is already ruined the shunt monitor wouldn't do any good too in my humble opinion.

 

[frankz66]

I agree but shouldn't he test his battery in the first place?
If the battery is already ruined the shunt monitor wouldn't do any good too in my humble opinion.

But if you talk about damaged battery, how do you only at once damage the battery? What does it technically mean to damage a battery? I can invence tell you that the first tests I did I really risked damaging a battery indeed I did but vrla batteries from ups that had to be charged at 14.50 but not equalized. By default epever has no parameters for agm, so it is wrong indeed very wrong to equalize the agm or vrla batteries. In fact, after a few months and not once, vrla lead batteries with epever parameters related to lead, proposed equalization, which made me get acid out of the vrla. I learned that agm gel 1 agm2 does not compartment equalized. Also the hoax, and that by asking for epever support, and showing the parameters they had replied that they were fine on agm, so equalized!

 

[RaySE]

But if you talk about damaged battery, how do you only at once damage the battery?

Literally drain it to very low voltage and way down its allowed DOD point would do a good job in killing it.

What does it technically mean to damage a battery?

Cooking it by overloading, Cooking it with extreme external heat while charging full power
By cooking they usualy mean such amount of overheating that the battery case/box swells up. This gives a risk of cracking and leaking acid, next to internal damage to plates.

Drain it to such low voltage that internal plates bend and possibly short cirquit,
You have multiple options to damage

 

[Substrate]

If I'm reading correctly, is your bank made up of multiples of used vrla agm's pulled from UPS systems?

[Update] Ah, I see this was one of your earlier experiments. Nevermind.

And that one of more gassed out with acid? Game over.

Why equalization is so misunderstood with AGM: because manufacturers, salesman, and even us shade-tree guys mix it all up. Here's the story:

1) NO, you should NOT equalize AGM. But what IS equalization? Equalization in the past referred to the Flooded Lead Acid method of raising the voltage after full charge to 15.5v or thereabout, and holding it there for many hours with a charger.

2) In a solar charge controller, some may indicated "equalize" setting for agm which is only applied every 28 days or thereabout for 2 hours. And this is ONLY 0.2V above your CV setpoint. Ie, you have a CV of 14.4v, and what they call an equalize at 14.6v in the controller is NOT like the super high voltage equalization of flooded lead acid above.

This small attempt to hold the voltage at 0.2v above normal for 2 hours once a month for agm, is to help compensate for the fact that it is really hard for agm to be fully charged via solar. That last 1% of charge needs at least 8-hours of "float" to complete. And for most, this is simply impossible, especially if one is doing daily-cyclic duty.

What makes if more confusing, is that this wimpy little "equalize" at only 0.2v higher than cv simply means truly fully charging the battery. And truly fully charging an agm, DOES equalize the cells internally. Most of the time, they are not truly fully charged, and the internal cells can get out of balance.

The problem is that salesman and others who don't really know this, assume that this is a mistaken reference to the FLA or flooded lead acid method, when it is not.

Sadly, this misconception will live on until the end of time. Unless you know the history of how it got so convoluted.

 

[Tomthumb62]

I agree but shouldn't he test his battery in the first place?
If the battery is already ruined the shunt monitor wouldn't do any good too in my humble opinion.

I agree with you. I think I’m getting a bit confused in a bit of language barrier.

AFAIK, the way to test a battery like this is to do a load test. In the states, you can take your battery to most any chain auto parts store, like Oreilleys and they will load test for free. Do you know of a better way?

We had two batteries we thought were damaged, brand new. Rated for 720CCA and tested 540 and 474 CCA. Both batteries were replaced under warranty.

 

[Supervstech]

Ok, let's all start over.

1. What are you running that draws 45W? Is the wattage at 12V or out of an inverter?

2. How much solar panel wattage do you have?

3. The epever3010 has a 30A output, At 12V that's a max wattage of 360W a bit more as the battery reaches full charge.so it can accept 1440Wh in a 4H solar day. More if you have lo ger days.

4. You mention an inverter, but only 5W please state what inverter you use.

 

[frankz66]

Ok and thank you for intervening.

The panels are 2 and they are 180 watts each in parallel for a total of 360 watts.

The regulator is an Epever tracer 3210AN 30 A

The inverter is a 500 watt 1000 watt green cell of pure sine wave cue.

The battery is an electonicx 110 ampe 12v C100 AGM1

I attach everything to you.

 

[Supervstech]

Ok.
The 45W load is through an inverter.
You could be MUCH higher than 45W…
How many Wh are you producing each day? The epever should have a screen that tracks it.

I think you are going to need more solar. At least twice what you have now.

You really should get at least 200Ah of LiFePO4 battery.

Lead acid batteries have two major problems for what you are doing.

1. They require bulk charge, and 100% recharge each day.

2. They waste a lot of energy in the charging process.

LiFePO4 batteries can handle low state of charge without failing. They accept most rates of charge, and are far more efficient in the charging process.

You can do what you want with lead acid, but you would need at least 400Ah and around 3000Wh of solar daily to keep it charged. A cloudy day, and he battery gets depleted too far with no way to recharge it, pretty quick the battery will fail.

 

[frankz66]

Ok.
The 45W load is through an inverter.
You could be MUCH higher than 45W…
How many Wh are you producing each day? The epever should have a screen that tracks it.

I think you are going to need more solar. At least twice what you have now.

You really should get at least 200Ah of LiFePO4 battery.

Lead acid batteries have two major problems for what you are doing.

1. They require bulk charge, and 100% recharge each day.

2. They waste a lot of energy in the charging process.

LiFePO4 batteries can handle low state of charge without failing. They accept most rates of charge, and are far more efficient in the charging process.

You can do what you want with lead acid, but you would need at least 400Ah and around 3000Wh of solar daily to keep it charged. A cloudy day, and he battery gets depleted too far with no way to recharge it, pretty quick the battery will fail.

Thank you for answering, I know as much as everyone who will switch to lithium .... at the moment many thanks