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Disappointing EVE 280K Results

This is a red flag you are getting GRAY market cells.
I have already assumed that these cells are grey market cells. How or why they are not the same date doesn't matter to me either. I also suspect they may have traveled through several places on their way to the vendors we actually purchase from them. Ten years ago I bought 72 Winston 10O Amp cells from a US based supplier for an EV conversion. They may have been Grade A but they also cost $300 per kWh. I am happy with my grey market cells that cost $125 per kWh. I bought four spares in case some were bad The spares are in a 12 volt pack I use to power my my relatives refrigerator when their power goes out.
 
Any BIG buyer of cells will require shipments all be tracked by PO/ LOT and cell grade. Imagine DELL or Tesla being informed by Panasonic they have to recall 18650 batch for safety.
I am not a BIG buyer and I don't have to imagine, two family members were affected by the recall of cars with cells made and sold by LG Chem. Stuff happens in life and there are no guarantees. So far I have been lucky but I do implement some risk management strategies from time to time.
 
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I disagree. This is a red flag you are getting GRAY market cells. Its not a terrible thing for us hobby folks but would be a disaster at retail market level.

Its a science of tracking. If your Lithium provider is sending cells from different MONTHS this tells me they were grouped AFTER a previous sale/return/reject etc.

Worked in a Lithium Ion battery plant for years.
LOT Numbers are created based on--just to name a few:
1. Batches of electrode (Anode & Cathode)
2. Date of Formation (Initial chare/Discharge)
3. Any process or component change or even shift change

LOTS are graded by performance (A-B-C-D-E-F-G-RECYCLE) FYI-- 18650 are different as grade D/E are usually hitting the nominal capacity on the datasheet. A&B are serious overachievers.

These are done to track ANY change or quality issue for recalls/warranty etc. Make no mistake this is a BIG deal. Any BIG buyer of cells will require shipments all be tracked by PO/ LOT and cell grade. Imagine DELL or Tesla being informed by Panasonic they have to recall 18650 batch for safety.

Another BB consumer. Good luck and be well.
"Gray market", 'aftermarket', call 'em whatever you want - they're CHEAP. Enjoy or not, nobody is being 'ripped off'. This thread is a joke...I'm out. ?
 
Another BB consumer. Good luck and be well.
"Gray market", 'aftermarket', call 'em whatever you want - they're CHEAP. Enjoy or not, nobody is being 'ripped off'. This thread is a joke...I'm out. ?
No one got ripped off.
No need to name call.
If facts hurt your feelings please feel free to go.
 
Another BB consumer. Good luck and be well.
"Gray market", 'aftermarket', call 'em whatever you want - they're CHEAP. Enjoy or not, nobody is being 'ripped off'. This thread is a joke...I'm out. ?
You agree on something.
You pay the price in full.
You receive a portion of what has been agreed.
Until new agreement is achieved, someone should be pi$$ed...
 
You agree on something.
You pay the price in full.
You receive a portion of what has been agreed.
Until new agreement is achieved, someone should be pi$$ed..
Yes that is how it works in the USA. When buying offshore one has to adjust expectations, otherwise you will be disappointed. You call it pissed. I call it not understanding what you are dealing with. If you want Automotive grade matched cells spend the extra dollars and get precisely what you bargained for. As mentioned earlier, these are grey market cells.
 
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Before ordering cells from Docan I'm getting measurement results with IR and capacity. Cell capacity is stated to be more than the offered one. I.e. 280Ah cell is sold as 280Ah cell with tested capacity close to 300Ah (my case). Based on these I would expect the cells to exceed the 280Ah capacity if they were advertised to do so before making the purchase. And if they don't - this is a rip-off.

I'm not going to test the capacity of the cells before assembling the pack. As long as IR is in norms and none of them has severe capacity degradation I'll be fine with the battery. If cells are batched then this shouldn't be an issue.
 
I think there is an issue with 280K made in December 2021 - January 2022 where they were low on capacity. All grades affected.
 
This is an expectation issue, not a cell/supplier issue. You just got 95% capacity cells for 50% the price.
You're absolutely right, it is an expectation issue.

What I personally find dumb as shit is that if Docan just straight up told us to expect x% less capacity, and explained that the reason they are slightly lower capacity is because they are new, but unused cells that didn't meet the EV spec - but that is reflected by their lower price, I would be fine with that (and clearly so would many others here, because most posters here acknowledge that this is in fact what we are buying).

So yes, it's an expectation issue, but the core of it is that Docan is taking no action to set the right expectation that a customer should have, then just ignoring customers when they inquire. It's bullshit.

Anyone that comes to this forum and reads the vendor reviews, probably has reasonable expectations, but it should really be on the vendor to set the expectations properly to avoid any misunderstandings.

In the end I would rather deal with a vendor who is at least honest about what they are selling (saying this as someone who has bought from Docan, but with the right expectations).
 
Out of curiosity - what was the price of the 280Ah EVE cells listed in the first post?
 
No mention of bloating? I ordered 32- 280 ah cells from Docan that I found on Will Prowse's online list. I didn't use a sales person/rep my first mistake maybe? I guess it doesn't make a difference now, I Just added to cart and checked out. I'm feelin kind of dumb now, the majority of them are bloated, I can't say that any of them are perfectly flat, at least the sides don't touch some more than others. I'm nervous about capacity testing them now, hoping for the best expecting less. By the way when I emailed Docan about the bloating and sent photos, they responded with " We checked with the factory and they said to cycle the battery 5 times and it should correct it" I'm not buying it! How serious is this bloated cell issue, should I even worry about it?
 
Real world: nobody is going to pay attention to a 5% reduction in stated capacity going from 280 to 266ah.

That's actually not bad for consumer level.

"But then they should sell them as 265ah!" If you were in business, a competitor with same cells would clean your clock by selling as 280ah. And sell them for single dollar less! Guess which one you click on first?

We don't complain about nimh AA's coming in at 5% less than rated. Although when hobbiests got their hands on analyzers, the same arguments appeared, and threats of consumer action appeared. The world needs to KNOW!! That didn't go far.

Sorry man, but actually 5% under for 3 of those cells, not bad. The one that actually did make it to 280, BONUS, not a rip off.

It's been this way forever. As a user, you ALWAYS derate the faceplate ah rating. Unless you actually are an OEM.
 
If the op actually cycled at 0.5C charge, (140A), as per the spec sheet instead of 40A, you actually might see some recovery.
 
If the op actually cycled at 0.5C charge, (140A), as per the spec sheet instead of 40A, you actually might see some recovery.
You do understand the spec sheet for the cells lists the max charge and discharge rates? Not rates you "have to use" for them to work properly.
 
No mention of bloating? I ordered 32- 280 ah cells from Docan that I found on Will Prowse's online list. I didn't use a sales person/rep my first mistake maybe? I guess it doesn't make a difference now, I Just added to cart and checked out. I'm feelin kind of dumb now, the majority of them are bloated, I can't say that any of them are perfectly flat, at least the sides don't touch some more than others. I'm nervous about capacity testing them now, hoping for the best expecting less. By the way when I emailed Docan about the bloating and sent photos, they responded with " We checked with the factory and they said to cycle the battery 5 times and it should correct it" I'm not buying it! How serious is this bloated cell issue, should I even worry about it?
How much do you consider bloated? The cell sides are almost never going to be perfectly flat.
 
How much do you consider bloated? The cell sides are almost never going to be perfectly flat.
Mine were slightly convex on delivery, probably because they were very cold.
Had to wait a day before I could start assembling the pack.
 
You do understand the spec sheet for the cells lists the max charge and discharge rates? Not rates you "have to use" for them to work properly.

I sure do. There is however what is called a "commissioning" charge, which is what industrial users (which these cells were designed for, not the average consumer), which typically exceeds normal-use specifications before you put them into service.

This *completes* the formation process - in the case of LFP that does not mean plate etching as with lead-acid, but ensures that the active material is equally responsive across the entire surface. That is not done at the factory since that involves time and energy costs, which would raise your price.

If this is not done, you run the risk or forming "tracks" of highly-responsive material, and less-responsive areas, leading to "hot spots" when high-current is needed. DIY EV users can spot these and lack of commissioning charges.

Consumers, who typically run very low SUB-C applications, never realize that this is a problem, because it is hidden from them with the use of a sub-c project.

These are industrial cells sold to consumers. If you want to play with big cells, then that means you need bigger toys. (chargers and so forth). Most consumers however, NEVER take that into consideration, and pamper their cells into poor performers.

Strictly speaking, by not realizing you have never commisioned a battery properly so that the entire surface area is equally responsive, and by using a sub-c application where this is not immediately apparent, those more active areas get worked harder than the less-responsive areas. Hence less cycle-life.
 
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Just to be complete - this commissioning / forming charge with higher current, (again, not plate etching as is done with lead acid, but is to ensure active material even response) is typically done *after* you have run about 5 cycles of normal "consumer level" type of low-amperage charging.

This sets everything up, gives the SEI layer a chance to form evenly, and then you can hammer them. Usually no more than 0.5C. After that, follow your manufacturer's allowable C rates for normal use.

If you haven't done this, but have run through a bunch of consumer level low-amperage cycles, then one might consider it an invitation to get a new toy. (bigger charger).

It is also the reason why nearly 100% of the out-of-the-box capacity-test videos immediately done at 0.5C are done improperly. :)
 
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@Substrate, the manufacturer is doing tests to confirm that the batteries are covering the specs. This is how they split them into grade A and grade B cells. Isn't this sufficient for forming the SEI layer?

My understanding is that these cells are ready to use when received. No instructions are provided by the manufacturer on the commissioning process. Still, they cover quite well the cell compression thing. If this was crucial I would expect to see it in the cell datasheets.

And by a new toy - if we consider the ~300Ah cells then we need a 150A charger. I have some serious doubts that the cost-benefit will justify it if we are talking about 1-2-3 DIY power banks.
 
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@Substrate, the manufacturer is doing tests to confirm that the batteries are covering the specs. This is how they split them into grade A and grade B cells. Isn't this sufficient for forming the SEI layer?
What we're most interested in is the formation and ageing process. This takes time, energy, sometimes human labor, which means money. If you rush this process, (due to customer demand or other forces), there can be a likelyhood that the cells are "Grade A" when they come off the line and tested prematurely, but become "Grade B" by the time it reaches your door. :)

So I make sure that I do an end-user commissioning process in case any of this was rushed.

A quick glance of manufacturing is around, but I found one quickly graphically demonstrating the process:


See the formation and aging process. And weasel-words like "up to 3 weeks". Will some manufacturers in a rush shorten that to 2 days? Maybe skimp on the formation? See what I'm saying - you don't know. Thus I do a mild followup just to make sure.

And by a new toy - if we consider the ~300Ah cells then we need a 150A charger. I have some serious doubts that the cost-benefit will justify it if we are talking about 1-2-3 DIY power banks.

What if Winston 1000ah cells were only $300 each? Would the end-user balk at buying a 100a charger just to be at .1C for charging, or still want to use the 10a programmable bench charger for top balance? The insufficient 10a bench charger. And a shirt pocket voltmeter.

Ludicrous I know, but sometimes some - but not all - diy'ers bite off more than they can chew when they go big. Especially as a first-project. I've done it myself numerous times and wished I had started out with the bigger toy (maintenance tools).

... running and ducking ....
 
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