diy solar

diy solar

EG4 18KPV x1 405 watt SEG bifacial 526 watt x 24 pcs. SEG-405-BMD-HV . How to wire PV

Model 3

New Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2021
Messages
7
Ground mount system with adjustable tilt angle.
24 x SEG-405-BMD-HV bifocal 526 watt panels
VOC= 34.73V
ISC= 11.07A
Distance between ground mount and EG4-18PVK
320 ft.
Tulsa Oklahoma area weather -20 possible.
I would like to run two strings of 12 in series to a combiner box, where they will be paralleled.
416.76 V 22.14 amps total.
From the combiner box it is 320 ft to the EG4 -18PVK .
Question: What size wire, and can I get away with just 2 wires running 320’ each.
 
can I get away with just 2 wires running 320’ each.
Yes.... and No
First, there needs to be a ground wire so the minimum is 3 wires. However you are probably asking if you need to run the +/- of both strings.
Let's work through it.

The Array Voc is 417V and the 18Kpv can handle up to 600V. That gives you a voltage ratio of 600/417=1.44. That is plenty for any cold temp adjustment.

The Array Isc of two strings is 26.14A. The Isc of MPPT 1 on the 18Kpv is 31A so your 2 strings can go on it. (Note MPPT 2 & 3 could not handle that).

EDIT: I did not calculate Isc for the Bifacial gain. It is possible for these panels to exceed the limit of the 18Kpv if there are 2 strings. See new post below.

So, the two strings can be tied together BUT....
The Imp of the panels is 13.10

1693170534027.png

The 18Kpv will only use 25A and your array Imp is 13.10 (Front side only) so if the panels are producing at full STC rating the MPPT would clip 1.2A. However, if we look at NOCT, the array will only produce 21.02

Now we have to consider the back-side contribution. If you get a 19% gain, the array Imp is likely to hit 25A even for the NOCT rating.

So.... Will it work with combing the strings at the array? Yes, but the MPPT may not harvest 100% of the energy the arrays could produce depending on conditions.

What should you do? If it were me, I would have a hard time deciding. The cost of 320ft of wire is painful.... but the thought of *possibly* not taking full advantage of the panels would bug the heck out of me. I would be tempted to spend the money on the wire and use two of the MPPTs on the 18Kpv

Edit: The two strings should be run all the way back to the inverter and use two of the MPPTs. See post 5 below.
What size wire,
First, let's calculate based on a single pair of wires. This is a little bit tricky because we have to decide what the Isc for the combined front/back will be. I will assume a 20% gain. That gives an Isc gain of 10.99A x 1.2 x 2 = 26.38A.

For NEC compliance the wire must handle 1.56 * 26.38 = 41.146A. Looking that up in the NEC ampacity table, we are at 8AWG.

Now we need to look at voltage drop.
Assuming we get a 20% gain the Imp will be 10.44A x 1.2 x 2 = 25.06. The MPP will cap that at 25A and our Vmp is 30.93

Pluging that into a voltage drop calculator, we get 1.756% loss so 8AWG is fine.

Now let's assume you are doing two runs.
The Isc is 10.99 x 1.2 = 13.188A. 13.722 x 1.2 = 16.47 Multiplying that by the NEC 1.55 factor we get 20.44A 25.67. Looking that up in the NEC table we see that you can use 12AWG 10AWG. If the wire has a 90degC rating, 12AWg10AWG is rated for 40A and that is good enough to cover the de-rating of putting all 4 current carrying conductors in a single conduit.

The 25A of the MPPT is no longer the limit so we need to calculate Imp. Assuming a 20% back-side gain we get 10.44 x 1.2 = 12.52. Putting 20.88 and 30.93 into a voltage drop calculator we get a voltage drop of 2.235%. 12AWG for each pair should be fine.
 
Last edited:
BTW: You should review this:
 
I just looked up wire costs and it turns out the cost of four 12AWG wires is not really much higher than two 8AWG wires....possibly even less!
 
UPDATE:
I realized that when I was looking at the Isc limit of the 18Kpv I did not calculate the Bifacial gain that could happen with ISC.

When I calculate a 20% gain on Isc I get 32.88A which exceeds the limit of the 18Kpv. If the Bifacial gain is higher, it just gets worse.

I must change my recommendation to NOT running both strings together back to the inverter. Run two sets of wires and use two of the MPPTs.
 
I would like to tag along on this one as I am in the planning phase using the same inverter and panels, although 36 panels with 3 strings of 12. Planning on 1 string on the roof, other 2 ground mount, location is south Iowa.

Wire sizing for the strings is confusing me even after reading this thread and the paper. Which Isc do we use, STC or NOCT? This thread seems to use both at times. Is there a rule for bifacial gain percentage, or do we make an educated guess on what it will be based on our installation, ie roof vs ground mount?

These panels have an STC Isc of 13.70, assuming 20% bifacial gain and the NEC 1.56 rule, gives me 13.70 x 1.2 x 1.56 = 25.65 amps, requiring 10 gauge(60/75C degree) before correction factors. For the roof mount panels can I legally leave out the bifacial gain, possibly allowing 12 gauge wire?

Does anyone know the temperature rating of the terminals in the EG4? I'd prefer to work from the 75 or 90 degree column in NEC table 310.16 for ampacity but have been unable to find that information. Also it appears most MC4 panel connectors are 85 degree C, meaning I cannot use the 90 degree column for ampacity.

Our record temperature in this area is 111F, although rarely above 103F. Do I need to temperature derate for above 104F? I will use XHWN-2 wire which is good for 90 deg wet/dry and likely have 4 current conductors in conduit. 75 degree terminals would give 10 gauge an ampacity of 35 amps. Can I then go to the 90C column, which shows 40 amps for 10 gauge to apply corrections of .8 for conduit and .87 for temperature, or do I need to stay in the 75C column? If so and I must apply the temperature connection, I would need 8 gauge unless I use 2 runs of conduit or direct bury.


Thank you for the help, this forum is helping a ton!
 
Wire sizing for the strings is confusing me even after reading this thread and the paper. Which Isc do we use, STC or NOCT? This thread seems to use both at times. Is there a rule for bifacial gain percentage, or do we make an educated guess on what it will be based on our installation, ie roof vs ground mount?
For calculating things for safety or equipment functional limits, I always use STC Isc and STC Voc.

For operational calculations of Imp in order to calculate voltage drops, I use Vmp and Imp. This calculation is not determining a safety issue or a equipment functional limit so we can be less conservitive and use the more realistic numbers. It could be argued that it is fine to use the NOTC but I typically use the STC just to be sure the wire is large enough. In this case, the STC vs NOTC made a difference in whether the MPPT would sometimes clip... so I pointed that out. Clipping is not a safety issue nor is it a damaging issue so it becomes a question of cost vs efficentcy vs what you think will happen in the real world.
Wire sizing for the strings is confusing me even after reading this thread and the paper. Which Isc do we use, STC or NOCT? This thread seems to use both at times. Is there a rule for bifacial gain percentage, or do we make an educated guess on what it will be based on our installation, ie roof vs ground mount?
That is a very good question. I have not seen a consensus on how to handle the Bi-facial gain and I always wonder the best way to deal with it.

In general, the Voc does not go up with the Bi-facial gain so the calculation of Voc is not impacted much.
This inverter limits Isc and the Bi-facial gain does impact Isc. For this case, I used 20% and that was enough to change my recommendation. If you want to be super conservative, use the max gain shown in the data sheet (In this case, 30%). The OP did not mention how they would be mounted and what the conditions are. If they are being mounted flat on a dark roof, it is probably OK to combine the strings.

The Imp calculation is for efficiency so getting it wrong is not a safety issue and wont damage equipment.... but no one wants to loose efficiency.
I used 20% gain in the calculations....That was just a SWAG.

These panels have an STC Isc of 13.70, assuming 20% bifacial gain and the NEC 1.56 rule, gives me 13.70 x 1.2 x 1.56 = 25.65 amps, requiring 10 gauge(60/75C degree) before correction factors. For the roof mount panels can I legally leave out the bifacial gain, possibly allowing 12 gauge wire?
That is a good question and I don't know. I have never seen the Bifacial gain addressed in the NEC. Technically, it seems to me that you should be allowed to ignore the gain (or only calculate it at some very low %). However, the NEC generally works off worst case....so I could imagine some future rule that would require using some large %.

BTW: Your numbers made me go back and look at mine and I had an error in calculation of STC for 2 strings. It is corrected above.
 
So after reading all the re-calculations and all the information on the bifacial gains, I’m steering towards the safer side and going with two strings of 10ga run in a single 1” grey pvc conduit at 18” deep.
 
I would like to tag along on this one as I am in the planning phase using the same inverter and panels, although 36 panels with 3 strings of 12. Planning on 1 string on the roof, other 2 ground mount, location is south Iowa.

Wire sizing for the strings is confusing me even after reading this thread and the paper. Which Isc do we use, STC or NOCT? This thread seems to use both at times. Is there a rule for bifacial gain percentage, or do we make an educated guess on what it will be based on our installation, ie roof vs ground mount?

These panels have an STC Isc of 13.70, assuming 20% bifacial gain and the NEC 1.56 rule, gives me 13.70 x 1.2 x 1.56 = 25.65 amps, requiring 10 gauge(60/75C degree) before correction factors. For the roof mount panels can I legally leave out the bifacial gain, possibly allowing 12 gauge wire?

Does anyone know the temperature rating of the terminals in the EG4? I'd prefer to work from the 75 or 90 degree column in NEC table 310.16 for ampacity but have been unable to find that information. Also it appears most MC4 panel connectors are 85 degree C, meaning I cannot use the 90 degree column for ampacity.

Our record temperature in this area is 111F, although rarely above 103F. Do I need to temperature derate for above 104F? I will use XHWN-2 wire which is good for 90 deg wet/dry and likely have 4 current conductors in conduit. 75 degree terminals would give 10 gauge an ampacity of 35 amps. Can I then go to the 90C column, which shows 40 amps for 10 gauge to apply corrections of .8 for conduit and .87 for temperature, or do I need to stay in the 75C column? If so and I must apply the temperature connection, I would need 8 gauge unless I use 2 runs of conduit or direct bury.


Thank you for the help, this forum is helping a ton!
 
So after reading all the re-calculations and all the information on the bifacial gains, I’m steering towards the safer side and going with two strings of 10ga run in a single 1” grey pvc conduit at 18” deep.
Lets see it installed!
 
Well, I have to apologize. I ended up with six or so Canadian solar panels that I had to use up so I combined that project with this one and I just finished it. Here are some of the photos of the six panel unit. Disregard the pictures of the fat old man standing in front of the panels I’m 6’1” so it’s just for size comparison, and yes this is a inexpensive eco-worthy sun tracker with quite a few modifications to support the weight and stress of six very large panels.IMG_0783.jpeg
 
I have definitely learned some things about bifacial panels that I would like to share: when the six panels are facing the sun and tracking the sun, they produce around 261 Volts, but when you point the panels straight up and use the bifacial portion of the panels because it’s pointing at the white rock underneath the array produces 270 Volts.
 
Many thanks to Filter Guy for walking through these wiring calculations! Incredibly helpful. (y) I bought a pallet of these SEG 405 panels and have to run a couple hundred feet to a ground mount. I got the first 6 up and running a couple days ago. Seem to be great panels so far and they are probably as large and heavy a panel that I can DIY install without significant assistance. Will probably upgrade my 6000 EX inverter to the 18k next year as it sounds like a good fit.
 
How did things fare in your part of town during the June '23 storm with the 100mph winds? Hoping your new setup will withstand that if it / when the Okie weather decides to do that again!
 
Wasn’t set up yet during that storm (thank goodness) it returns to flat during high winds, but if it didn’t I guarantee the neighbors would have seen a UFO lol.
 
Back
Top