I’m trying to run an EG4 6000XP without a battery at this time. It works great with just the PV enabled and it works great with the grid enabled however, when running with PV input as soon as we turn on the grid all the power seems to be coming off the grid ignoring the PV. This must be some setting, but I cannot figure it out. Can anyone help?
EG4 6000XP without battery
- Thread starter Hose
- Start date
sunshine_eggo
Happy Breffast!
Know nothing, but thougth I'd take a stab from the manual...
3 is battery typ no?
Setting 15 may need to be set to not power loads with AC.
Setting 19 enable?
Note that there are multiple cautions against using w/o battery. This is because rapidly changing loads may change too quickly for the MPPT to react, and you may experience unreliable output.
3 is battery typ no?
Setting 15 may need to be set to not power loads with AC.
Setting 19 enable?
Note that there are multiple cautions against using w/o battery. This is because rapidly changing loads may change too quickly for the MPPT to react, and you may experience unreliable output.
iwood
New Member
Bumping this. I am waiting for my EG4 280Ah battery to travel the seas so have my panels and inverter up and running along with grid input. I am seeing very little coming from the panels and the majority coming from the grid. And the diagram is missing the flow from the inverter to the load. I have only made two changes on the inverter: no battery and enabling the N-PE bond. Is there another setting I need to change (I cannot find anything that seems to fit) or is this the normal behavior of the 6000XP without a battery?
Is it because my load is less than the output of the panels and the inverter would have nowhere to put the excess since I have no battery? I assume the panels work in a kind of ON/OFF and can't put out a partial amount of power (without micro inverters). Can someone confirm?
Panels are 2 strings of 6 Silfab 490w getting full sunlight (no shade).
Monitor view of inverter:
Bright clear day:
Is it because my load is less than the output of the panels and the inverter would have nowhere to put the excess since I have no battery? I assume the panels work in a kind of ON/OFF and can't put out a partial amount of power (without micro inverters). Can someone confirm?
Panels are 2 strings of 6 Silfab 490w getting full sunlight (no shade).
Monitor view of inverter:
Bright clear day:
ScropusGobbleBottom
Corn Pop was a bad dude.
It is my understanding that the 6000xp will attempt to power loads exclusively with solar and when the sun isnt FULLY powering the loads it will switch to grid.
No halfsies. No fun, NO COMPROMISES!
No halfsies. No fun, NO COMPROMISES!
iwood
New Member
Did some further testing. Wanted to get the load above one of the strings potential output to see if it would kick in.
The good news is the 6000XP can run my 4 ton A/C with only grid power pass through using an easy start device.
The bad news is the PV is still not contributing even with the load exceeding the output potential of one string.
So either I've got a setting to change somewhere or the PV just doesn't do anything without a battery present.
The good news is the 6000XP can run my 4 ton A/C with only grid power pass through using an easy start device.
The bad news is the PV is still not contributing even with the load exceeding the output potential of one string.
So either I've got a setting to change somewhere or the PV just doesn't do anything without a battery present.
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
I think you misunderstand the working mode of an off grid AIO. They won’t blend grid AC with anything else without extra hardware like a double conversion setup.
So you only have 100W of solar. If your loads are smaller than 100W then it will be solar powered. If it is bigger than 100W, even by a bit, it will go to grid. And probably well before 100W since all you have buffering solar production are the capacitors in the inverter
This has been explained a couple times in the thread, can you share how this specifically conflicts with your understanding so we can correct it?
DIYrich
Solar Wizard
6000xp is not designed to blend. The eg4 3000 can blend.
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
No way around it with nowhere to get some electrons to make up any difference. Running an off-grid inverter without *some* battery is kind of odd. Things are going to turn off and on everytime the sun goes behind a cloud.
ScropusGobbleBottom
Corn Pop was a bad dude.
Right! It might do OK for a water heater, but I cant think of anything else.
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
Enphase and a couple other companies thought it was worth making a feature /s.
Maybe the training talks about some use cases.
Maybe the training talks about some use cases.
ScropusGobbleBottom
Corn Pop was a bad dude.
Thats called a Hybrid Inverter not a strictly off grid inverter.
iwood
New Member
I am not looking for it to blend. I am looking for it to use the solar. I don't have 100w of solar. I have 12 490w panels in two strings. I should have 5.8kW theoretically. But that's not happening. So what am I missing here?
ScropusGobbleBottom
Corn Pop was a bad dude.
iwood
New Member
Yes. You can see in first post in this thread the load was 435w.
Separately, I found a different page of settings. One of them is called "no batteries" which I have now enabled. Will see tomorrow if that allows it to use solar first and switch to grid if there is insufficient solar.
The EG4 user interface is, how can I put this nicely, in need of improvement.
iwood
New Member
Can someone answer this question:
If the solar circuit is being used, does the inverter need to take all of the current and put it somewhere? In other words, if my panels are outputting 5kW of power, does there need to be 5kW of consumption. If I have 1kW of load, can the inverter take only 1kW from the panels even though they are outputting more? Or does the excess need to go somewhere for the circuit to work?
And if the panels aren't being used, are they effectively open circuit even if they're connected to the inverter?
If the solar circuit is being used, does the inverter need to take all of the current and put it somewhere? In other words, if my panels are outputting 5kW of power, does there need to be 5kW of consumption. If I have 1kW of load, can the inverter take only 1kW from the panels even though they are outputting more? Or does the excess need to go somewhere for the circuit to work?
And if the panels aren't being used, are they effectively open circuit even if they're connected to the inverter?
chilly2
New Member
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2021
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- 173
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
Your screenshot indicated 100W of available solar at that time. Or 100W of solar draw. Unclear what it represents in this specific UI.
The 490W rating on the solar panel is in ideal conditions (STC). Which assumes a certain insolation and unrealistically low temperature. Lower insolation and higher temperature will reduce the output. What time of day and optimal out of orientation do you have? Can you share a photo of the installation so we can confirm shading? That has a complex impact on available solar.
No there is no need for a dump load in solar to use all of the power. It simply is dissipated harmlessly as heat in the solar panels. This unlike spinning generators and wind turbines where you need a dump load to properly load the mechanical components.
Yes
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
What priority mode do you have the inverter set to?
What happens if you cut the AC power from grid? This is worth trying because in most modes cutting grid AC will force use of solar.
Please start with a simple controlled load like a 20W phone charger. And nothing else connected. All of your loads are higher than those PV watts in the UI, TBH that should have given you pause.
What happens if you cut the AC power from grid? This is worth trying because in most modes cutting grid AC will force use of solar.
Please start with a simple controlled load like a 20W phone charger. And nothing else connected. All of your loads are higher than those PV watts in the UI, TBH that should have given you pause.
Feel free to direct message me your serial number. I can review your settings to ensure everything is configured properly.
iwood
New Member
OK. Managed to confirm the functioning of the panels which is what I really wanted to do as I only have limited time with the scissor lift!
I turned off the grid input into the inverter and it started using the panels. Loaded it up slowly with common use items and noticed my lines are pretty imbalanced (uggh, go figure). Nonetheless, loaded up L2 courtesy of the microwave and everything held up to the limit. Inverter ran at 108% for 2.5 mins before I decided not to push it any further.
Now I need my battery to show up!
@EG4_Eric, I will PM you my serial. I would like to get the inverter to use solar during the day while I am waiting for the battery. I'm in SoCal. It's always sunny and would rather not have the panels sit open circuit. Don't suppose you can help with battery availability as well!?!
I turned off the grid input into the inverter and it started using the panels. Loaded it up slowly with common use items and noticed my lines are pretty imbalanced (uggh, go figure). Nonetheless, loaded up L2 courtesy of the microwave and everything held up to the limit. Inverter ran at 108% for 2.5 mins before I decided not to push it any further.
Now I need my battery to show up!
@EG4_Eric, I will PM you my serial. I would like to get the inverter to use solar during the day while I am waiting for the battery. I'm in SoCal. It's always sunny and would rather not have the panels sit open circuit. Don't suppose you can help with battery availability as well!?!
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zanydroid
Solar Wizard
Just noticed the Los Angeles location.
You want to be careful with
You want to be careful with
- AHJ finding out you have non-compliant ESS. Non-compliance with residential code is guaranteed with most batteries you can pair with 6000XP
- POCO finding out you have disallowed blending mode / parallel operation (and smart meters are ubiquitous in California so the question is only about when they deploy the software to do it, the hardware is installed)
iwood
New Member
6000XP won't back feed to the grid if that is what you mean. Will only use grid if battery is low SOC and solar not sufficient. Assuming i can get it configured as such! But appreciate the head's up. I am following local jurisdiction with the intention of compliance. Battery may be the exception.
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
OK.
So here are the tradeoffs as I see it, vs a fully compliant hybrid that can blend:
- you will need extra batteries to absorb surge to avoid transferring back to grid when you turn on your biggest combination of loads + startup
- you will need to factor in the cost of getting rid of the non compliant hardware if they catch you. With 6000XP (which I think is UL1741 offgrid) you can get 9540 compliant batteries for $2100/5kWh now IIRC from the cheapest option reported to my DC ESS thread, plus balance of system such as racking as needed to maintain the listing.
- I think there is a hybrid UL1741SB hybrid growatt that costs only $500-700 more than the 6000XP, and can be used as hybrid + has more inverter output. It probably can also be rendered fully compliant with the same battery system referred to above.
iwood
New Member
I am seeing it as a potential race condition. It would appear the EG4 14.3kWh indoor battery is designed with high quality safety features. Even has built in fire suppression. While it looks like it was built for compliance, I admittedly have no idea if it will be. If it doesn't, I can repurpose it for use by my business.
Batteries I take very seriously. I have a lot of experience with "large" LiPo batteries (5-20Ah) for drones. LiPo being far more volatile and requiring active safety measures even when not in use.
Nonetheless, I should caveat everything I am saying here as it is all with very limited knowledge so far. I appreciate the design options you've suggested. My equipment is very much a version 1 with the idea that as I learn I will realize the limitations of my early decisions. This is a familiar MO for my professional work and hobbies for some time. It mostly works!
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
Not sure what kind of race condition you're thinking of (and I think about race conditions multiple times per week for work so I'm pretty creative about it).
So if you forgo inspection (which 6000XP won't pass in California unless you get a DC ESS -- check out this thread for the limited user experience with it on this forum), please look at R328 and enforce it on yourself. It includes limits on battery stack size and prohibits a lot of installation locations in a residence. It also prescribes vehicle impact protection.
There are summary PDFs provided by AHJ
The fire suppression is pretty common among 9540 compliant batteries. That indoor wall battery is 9540 listed with the 18kpv inverter So even though a battery might not be 9540 listed (*) to work with all inverters, it would still be held to a high safety standard.
IMO installing outside is better b/c you definitely have a robust fire barrier in the form of the house siding. In my case, I don't want batteries indoors anywhere. My garage is old enough to have bare studs and exposed rafters, so it would have to all be covered by drywall (not sure if it needs to be Type X) before I can install batteries.
Looking at the Discovery ESS, that is $1950 per 5kWh rack mount. Then $2000 for an enclosure that holds 6 batteries (fortunately this makes it weatherproof). VS $3500 for a 14kWh EG4 outdoor wall mount that can only be used with the 18kpv.
So let's look at this thread for 1741 certified inverters, running on 48V. These are all hybrids, I believe CEC listed and approved for all POCOs in California. SPH10000TL is the most compelling price point. $6500 gets you a hybrid with 5kWh outdoor battery that you can connect to the grid. VS $8500 for 18kpv with 14kWh outdoor battery. And the 18kpv can be configured with a 5kWh indoor battery, with 9540 certification, for $6500.
(*) which is what DC ESS means/helps with -- cross inverter compatible battery. Non DC ESS 9540, IE 9540 without clarifications/qualifications, is always approved with a combination of inverters and batteries. So if you look at the EG4 9540 listings for the 18kpv, you will see a list of like 20 different batteries and battery combinations that it is listed with. It's not really scalable since they have to test & list the full cross product. Well, the testing might not need to be destructive for all combinations, it might be extrapolated after destructively testing one combination. if they actually tested all 10 combinations listed on that certificate, that would be pretty expensive and polluting.
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