Harbor Freight Drummond Brand Shallow Well Pump. Anyone have experience? Startup current draw? (rated 10A @ 120vac)

[12VoltInstalls]

if i ever have 2-3x my current budget

living on less than $10k/year, there are often no good options. so we try to make do with what we can afford, within the limits of our skill and knowledge.

Why are you limited to $10K/yesr?

5-6-ish years ago I had a situation and I went unpaid for a number of months of work and I can tell you $10k/yr isn’t enough to pay insurance, eat, gasoline, phone, rent etc.

 

[ajtarnas]

ah! the short story is that in my life, ive found it very difficult to make money, but i'm good at saving money. most years since 2005 i have made ~$5k. i have never made more than $20k in a year.

global median income is around $10k/yr. the median income
in my census block is $16k/yr. i find it's actually fairly easy to live well in the US at $5k-$15k/yr. in other countries the low income combines with worse access to goods and service, lower quality of roads and other infrastructure, physical insecurity, etc. in the states the baseline is higher. not as high as in spain or italy or japan. but high enough for me. especially in bigger cheap cities such as pittsburgh, or cheap rural areas such as where i live presently in the mojave.

i own two cars (my biggest expense -- about $2k-$3k/yr for gas, insurance, maintenance, etc), i own my home (cost $20k), i live off grid, i buy my own groceries (~$1k-$2k/yr). for many years i was an avid dumpster diver and got
most of my food for cost of scavenging.

on this budget i just have to be frugal. for the last five years i've had a girlfriend who makes a similar income so we've saved to some degree by sharing expenses.

in the discussion above, the 3000w WZRELB was already a stretch at over $300, but my girlfriend really wanted it vs the 1500w inverter we already had. such decisions tend not to work out long term but we'll see.

 

[A.Justice]

Being that it states 1HP I assume you are estimating that 2HP to establish adequate startup headroom?

I’m curious, too, as 1HP is “technically” 768W but startup could be much higher

I've seen pumps take over 10x the rated current during startup. Especially when they are far away from the water source.

This pump was about 4 feet from the pool, and has MAYBE 3 feet of head, and still has an absurd inrush.

Full disclosure, that is a plug-in pump, without a cap, but even with a cap, the inrush can be nuts.

 

[Mattb4]

it seems to me that a 1/2hp shallow well jet pump would be a better fit. A quick perusal of Ebay provides links to several (though you might have to match up to your own pressure tank) for cheaper than HF 1hp unit. One I am looking at is ~ about $130.
Grabbing the rating.

Technical Specifications:

• Horsepower: 1/2 HP;
• Flow rate: 12.5 GPM;
• Shut Off Head: 156';
• Amps: 6.4A at 120V / 3.2A at 230V;
• Weight: 33 lbs;
• UL listed for USA.

• I do not know what the surge current is without testing but the amps is considerably lower then the HF Drummond.

 

[ajtarnas]

it seems to me that a 1/2hp shallow well jet pump would be a better fit. A quick perusal of Ebay provides links to several (though you might have to match up to your own pressure tank) for cheaper than HF 1hp unit. One I am looking at is ~ about $130.
Grabbing the rating.

• I do not know what the surge current is without testing but the amps is considerably lower then the HF Drummond.

the hf pump comes with an integrated pressure tank at $145. local parts and knowledge base, hf store nearby. no ebay pumps im seeing come close to this value.

 

[camelCase]

Two things come to mind reading this thread... the first is that I would suggest adding an inline pressure tank to reduce the frequency of the pump cycling. It shouldn't be so big as to overheat the motor but large enough to reduce frequency of on off cycles by a lot. A small cast off water heater would work for this if $$ is an issue. You would want to plumb into the bottom of the tank, only, as to maintain a head of air at the top of the tank if you did this, BTW.

Second, electric motors vary greatly in efficiency. If the motor in the discussed pump actually draws up to 10 amps and produces an honest 1hp of output power, then that puts it in the 60% efficiency range, which is pretty horrible, though not uncommon. That's the tradeoff you make when only paying $170.

 

[ajtarnas]

Two things come to mind reading this thread... the first is that I would suggest adding an inline pressure tank to reduce the frequency of the pump cycling. It shouldn't be so big as to overheat the motor but large enough to reduce frequency of on off cycles by a lot. A small cast off water heater would work for this if $$ is an issue. You would want to plumb into the bottom of the tank, only, as to maintain a head of air at the top of the tank if you did this, BTW.

Second, electric motors vary greatly in efficiency. If the motor in the discussed pump actually draws up to 10 amps and produces an honest 1hp of output power, then that puts it in the 60% efficiency range, which is pretty horrible, though not uncommon. That's the tradeoff you make when only paying $170.

i'm not quite sure what your recommendation is here. the pump has an integrated pressure tank, i think it's about 2gal. i can't see the advantage of adding another low-quality pressure tank. if i had the cash for a good quality pressure tank, i wouldnt be here.

i cannot use an old water heater in my situation. i would sooner switch back to a DC pump and build a 10-20' tall gravity-pressure water tower with a 55gal or 275gal batch-filled tank.

your guess that the pump
motor is of poor quality is shared by many. i would disagree that a $145 product must necessarily be of poor quality. i have dewalt cordless tools which have endured ridiculous duty cycle for years that cost $50-$100. if i were a better engineer i would use a dewalt motor for a pump.

because this hf drummond 1hp model is so common i may take the time some day to remove the motor and attempt to adapt a different better dc motor onto the pump turbine. but that's not in the card for the weeks ahead.

 

[camelCase]

As long as your system can handle the current draw, I don't see a problem with the motor, personally. It just is what it is.

I made a crude diagram showing how an inline pressure tank works. The key is the head of air at the top of the tank that compresses and expands to increase the amount of water that can be delivered between pump cycles. When a tap is opened, the air expands while the pressure drops, delivering gallons of water between pump cycles instead of a quart or two.

It doesn't have to be a water heater. That was just an example. Propane cylinders, boilers or anything that can handle the pressure and be plumbed with NPT threads will work. When I was a kid we had a shallow well and an ancient pump plumbed into a 100 gallon cast iron pressure tank. That tank did something really good to the taste of the water, BTW. I remember being so dissapointed with the taste of the water when Dad replaced the old pump and tank with a modern one from Sears.

 

[ajtarnas]

As long as your system can handle the current draw, I don't see a problem with the motor, personally. It just is what it is.

I made a crude diagram showing how an inline pressure tank works. The key is the head of air at the top of the tank that compresses and expands to increase the amount of water that can be delivered between pump cycles. When a tap is opened, the air expands while the pressure drops, delivering gallons of water between pump cycles instead of a quart or two.

It doesn't have to be a water heater. That was just an example. Propane cylinders, boilers or anything that can handle the pressure and be plumbed with NPT threads will work.

View attachment 103801

i am quite familiar with the principle. i find that it does not work well, and comes with too
many new maintenance issues to be worthwhile. since my household system is supplied by a 300gal tank that i haul water to fill on a weekly basis, having a 50gal pressurized inline tank in the desert heat is not reasonable.

in the past i found that the air pocket provides very poor pressurization and requires weekly maintenance. if you have a video or personal experience that shows otherwise i'd be interested in the details.

again, why do you think adding a 50gal low-grade pressure tank to the existing 2gal tank will help? i doubt it would cut the pump cycling down enough to help. it would need to reduce pump cycling by 10-20x for it to be worth my while to install a known good pressure tank with a modern bladder -- let alone one that just has an air pocket.

the present issue is that the inverter CANNOT happily handle the startup current draw. reducing cycling will cut down on wear and tear but likely not enough to matter.

 

[Mattb4]

the hf pump comes with an integrated pressure tank at $145. local parts and knowledge base, hf store nearby. no ebay pumps im seeing come close to this value.

Home Despot has a 4 gallon RO tank that sells for $41.15. Could easily plumb that it. BTW I notice HF Drummond is listed at$169.

 

[ajtarnas]

Home Despot has a 4 gallon RO tank that sells for $41.15. Could easily plumb that it. BTW I notice HF Drummond is listed at$169.

i have tried an RO tank before. it doesnt appear to give any benefit. maybe it's the 1/4" inlet/outlet.

throwing another $45 at a problem that is already too expensive plus labor time is not appealing. again, have you tried these ideas yourself? the cost of me following a random idea from you is too high. i've already tried these things.

hf has so many deals/coupons. the pump was $145 this week in yucca valley ca and sometimes cheaper. do you ever shop at hf?

i'm really not in this thread to hear more expensive and random advice from people who havent documented their own implementation of the idea. i'm going to stop posting until someone else with this pump shows up and has something to contribute from direct experience.

 

[camelCase]

Here's a page showing draw down volumes for various tank sizes and pressure settings.

Well Pump Drawdown Cycle Volume & Time

inspectapedia.com

As for personal experience, I lived in a house with a 100 gallon expansion tank and someone could get in the shower and it would take 4 or 5 minutes before the pump came on. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[shot428]

the hf pump comes with an integrated pressure tank at $145. local parts and knowledge base, hf store nearby. no ebay pumps im seeing come close to this value.

curious did you fill it with the proper amount of air? as it would vary with dif psi settings

have ours set to 40 ~ 60 psi, believe the bladder tank fill was 23 psi, was 105 f yesterday and pump runs bout once an hour

 

[Mattb4]

...

i'm really not in this thread to hear more expensive and random advice from people who havent documented their own implementation of the idea. i'm going to stop posting until someone else with this pump shows up and has something to contribute from direct experience.

You are correct I do not have direct experience of that pump. I do run a 1/2 hp GE jet pump to my 20 gal (42 equivalent) tank. and have for 25 years now. It is powered by grid though. I also have experience in making do on very little money. I used to shop HF frequently in the past but have found I can buy many identical items cheaper elsewhere. But unlike you I do not live close to HF so shipping cost makes a difference.

BTW my advice was/is free. You decide what the worth of it is.

ETA: BTW my 1/2hp jet pump ratings is 10.6 amps at 120vAC. I just ran it with a Kill-A-Watt meter connected watching the amps. It jumped to 9.8amps when starting at 30psi low set pressure. It then dropped down to about 9.4 amps while pressure rose along with amps. The final amps at 50psi shutoff reached 9.65a. I don't have an instantaneous readout so it is hard to say how much more max than the 9.8 amps was pulled. All I can go by is the reading from the meter.

 

[Jack Rabbit Off Grid]

I tried one of them and it didn’t work for me. I was powering with my Magnum 4448. Every time it started it would dim the lights and shut off the TV. I ended up replacing it with two Pentair 3.3 gpm pumps in parallel to a pressure tank. They only draw 104w each. Less then $75 ea on Amazon. I could have gotten away with one But didn’t know at the time.

 

[Jack Rabbit Off Grid]

I also tried this wired to 230v and it did the same thing. It’s currently for sale.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

would sooner switch back to a DC pump and build a 10-20' tall gravity-pressure water tower with a 55gal or 275gal batch-filled tank

If freezing is not an issue I’ve developed the idea that a 275-gal buffer tank with gravity is a great idea. 12- and 24V RV pumps are inexpensive and can provide good pressure. I have a 275gal tank on a trailer to bring water to my off-grid setup and it’s not as big of a pain as it seems, and in thinking ‘dug well’ versus drilled well (and the electrical needs of that pump) even a trickle of fill would bevmore than adequate to keep the buffer filled.

 

[TGPB]

I use a 12v washdown pump that puts out 5+ GPM at 70 PSI with a pressure tank to keep the pump from turning off and on all the time. I use a small tank on my trailer and a 80 gallon tank on my off grid cabin. Both pumps have lasted 10+ years.

 

[ajtarnas]

I use a 12v washdown pump that puts out 5+ GPM at 70 PSI with a pressure tank to keep the pump from turning off and on all the time. I use a small tank on my trailer and a 80 gallon tank on my off grid cabin. Both pumps have lasted 10+ years.

such extraordinary claims require PRODUCT NAMES AND SYSTEM PHOTOS! ?

 

[TGPB]

Small tank
Larger Tank these are usually available locally up to 120 gallons.
Washdown Pump

This pump has a built in pressure switch and an easy clean inlet screen. I have been very happy with it's performance and longevity.
The pump usually turns on about once a weekend. This depends on water usage like running the dishwasher and other use. The larger the pressure tank, the less frequently the pump will cycle.