Is there a good way to make a residential system removable?

[Ellis Redding]

I don't see this as a common design plan.
Is there a way to design a system such that inverters and panels could be removed and just leave a standard grid-supplied system if the home is sold and the future owner doesn't want solar?

 

[SparkyJJO]

Ground mounts for no holes left removal. Rewire the critical loads panel as a direct sub panel off the main panel.

 

[RCinFLA]

Make an inverter/battery roller cart and have a house grid connection SOOC cable cord as if it is for a backup generator.
This is also a good way to get around permits/inspections/approvals, other than installation of backup generator port which is supposed to be permitted in most locations.

A backup generator arrangement can also have an auxiliary critical load panel but that officially needs permits.

Panel placement is dependent on house arrangement. They are hard to hide from a permit/inspection basis.

 

[Ellis Redding]

Make an inverter/battery roller cart and have a house grid connection SOOC cable cord as if it is for a backup generator.
This is also a good way to get around permits/inspections/approvals, other than installation of backup generator port which is supposed to be permitted in most locations.

A backup generator arrangement can also have an auxiliary critical load panel but that officially needs permits.

Panel placement is dependent on house arrangement. They are hard to hide from a permit/inspection basis.

Is there any way to install the backup generator arrangement such that it doesn't have a interlock? I suppose it would need a AutoTransferSwitch... does this make sense?

 

[SparkyJJO]

You have to isolate your backup power so it can't back feed the grid. Whether that is done with an auto transfer switch, or manual transfer switch, or interlock doesn't necessarily matter, but you need something to make sure you can't have both grid and generator on at the same time so that you don't kill a lineman fixing a downed powerline.

That's one reason why grid-tie inverters shut down during a power outage - so that when there is no grid presence due to a grid failure, you're not risking someone's life while they're fixing stuff that should be deenergized. Also, back feeding the grid could blow up your equipment if it isn't designed to connect in sync with it, or if your generator backfeeds trying to energize half your neighborhood, etc. All kinds of problems can arise from backfeeding.

 

[wattmatters]

I don't see this as a common design plan.
Is there a way to design a system such that inverters and panels could be removed and just leave a standard grid-supplied system if the home is sold and the future owner doesn't want solar?

Given the speed with which old rooftop PV systems are ripped down here in Australia in prep for a complete system upgrade, not sure I see the point. Impact driver to undo all the bolts/screws, wire cutters to cut the cables and rip 'er out. Load 'em on a truck/trailer. System is of no value to anyone anyway and so makes its way to recycling centre and landfill. It's a quick job but destructive on the old equipment.

Systems need to be mounted to meet safety / strength standards (e.g. wind loads, electrical safety standards) so don't expect things to be a simple as pulling out a plug and unclipping a mount. There will probably be roof penetration points to repair as well.

 

[JoeHam]

My system is set up that way.

I have a Schneider CSW4048 inverter that is fed with a 240 line from the main panel for backup when batteries are not enough.

The CSW4048 feeds a critical loads panel. It has the transfer switch and auto transformer built in.

If I wish the CSW4048 can be removed and the 240 line from the main panel will feed the critical loads panel as a simple sub panel.

My solar panels are semi-permanently ground mounted and would be fairly easy to remove also.

 

[Ellis Redding]

My system is set up that way.

I have a Schneider CSW4048 inverter that is fed with a 240 line from the main panel for backup when batteries are not enough.

The CSW4048 feeds a critical loads panel. It has the transfer switch and auto transformer built in.

If I wish the CSW4048 can be removed and the 240 line from the main panel will feed the critical loads panel as a simple sub panel.

My solar panels are semi-permanently ground mounted and would be fairly easy to remove also.

Would love to see this system. That's almost exactly what I'd like to create. The only thing better would be if I didn't need to create a separate panel...
Semi-permanent ground mount would be perfect as well. I want soemthing that isn't going to fly away or tip over, but doesn't require a permit.

 

[WYtreasure]

Hey aaron welcome to the show.

Most folks do mount things to walls.
Build your own non-combustible wall of equipment, put your batteries on a cart, add Anderson SB Connectors to your battery cables. Pull the cart the batteries unplug and you wheel it into the truck. Perform similar connections for DC in, AC out etc. and your carrying your equipment wall out the door (with some big dudes helping).

 

[JoeHam]

The only thing better would be if I didn't need to create a separate panel...

But that is what makes it so easy to remove the inverter and leave an intact system.

Would take minutes to do.

I will try to find a picture.

 

[JoeHam]

See here while under construction :

Sorry about the upside down picture.

 

[eabyrd]

Mine will be removed when I decide to sell. Evidence will consist of rwo plugged knockouts in the main load center, and a small hold in the siding

 

[Ampster]

Is there a way to design a system such that inverters and panels could be removed and just leave a standard grid-supplied system if the home is sold and the future owner doesn't want solar?

I left my grid tied system and panels but took my hybrid inverter and batteries. Removing panels and rails was not worth the expense to me versus the value of selling the home with GT solar and EV charger. I also took the panels off the patio cover which fed the hybrid inverter. I replace them with fiberglass shade panels. The GT system was permitted and had PTO with PG&E and hybrid was not permitted so that was another reason the hybrid would not have had value to buyer.

 

[WYtreasure]

I made mine easy to remove by putting the batteries on a cart.

 

[Ellis Redding]

I left my grid tied system and panels but took my hybrid inverter and batteries. Removing panels and rails was not worth the expense to me versus the value of selling the home with GT solar and EV charger. I also took the panels off the patio cover which fed the hybrid inverter. I replace them with fiberglass shade panels. The GT system was permitted and had PTO with PG&E and hybrid was not permitted so that was another reason the hybrid would not have had value to buyer.

Yea, Cali is probably another world compared to North Carolina.

 

[orangezero]

Much depends on the exact layout of your home, but my plan is to eventually build an island of solar power in a carport or detached garage next to my house. There is no power in that location now and adding it requires a decent chunk of work and cost anyway. Putting solar right there saves on cabling as well.

Basically, if the goal is to have all home circuits hooked up to solar and the power company you are complicating things and increasing the cost and in some cases reducing the usefulness of the system. When the power goes out, I don't NEED to have power to every circuit in my house. Some people do. I don't get it. I realize some homes have a lot of power requirements. I can run an extension cord to a fridge to keep my food from spoiling indefinitely with my current test solar setup, unless the sun gives out. I could even use an inverter to run a window air conditioner all day without really using any battery at all. I don't NEED my central air to run on solar.

The professionals worry about all kinds of issues and the safety of power line workers in an outage. And they should! And municipalities and coding people throw a big stink about this stuff and they should also. And it is also nutty to imagine we'd invent a system of power where the secondary system (solar) doesn't work when the primary power source (power company) fails. Power goes down and you can't use your solar? Just wow... there has to be a better way.

The easiest way in my mind to make it removeable is to have an all-in-one box similar to commercial made inverter/charge controller/batteries. Portable means you could move it around your house. A big house or big family could easily have an ancilary battery pack in a different physical location. It would go a long way to recharge laptops, phones, etc. and what else are people actually using now?

 

[wattmatters]

Basically, if the goal is to have all home circuits hooked up to solar and the power company you are complicating things and increasing the cost and in some cases reducing the usefulness of the system.

3 million Australian homes have just this set up.

When the power goes out, I don't NEED to have power to every circuit in my house. Some people do. I don't get it.

While supplying backup power to every circuit isn't necessary, I have disabled and frail elderly people to think about. Having power where they are able to use it matters, a lot.

My region has been experiencing devastating floods and power supply is at threat. Fortunately my town has escaped the worst but we are still experiencing outages.

The professionals worry about all kinds of issues and the safety of power line workers in an outage. And they should!

Isolating a system from the grid when required is not difficult. It can perform both grid-tied and isolated off-grid duties if required.

 

[orangezero]

If I had an independent solar/battery/inverter system already set up and wanted to connect it safely to my grid breaker box, how much would just those parts cost in Australia?

Too often I hear news of people locally or in other US states who don't get a battery and their solar system is worthless when the grid goes down (because of the way the system was designed). And then I see years later it happens again. If you have 3 million doing this, awesome. Do most have batteries as well? I feel my research on lifepo4 years ago always ended up being forums of Australians talking to each other about their lifepo4 cells. Meanwhile, we had $$$$$ batteries and few resellers. I don't think I know anyone locally that would even know what lifepo4 are.

I certainly get your point. Lots of different scenarios. Most people couldn't push around too big of a battery even on wheels. Stairs would cause issues, etc.

 

[wattmatters]

If I had an independent solar/battery/inverter system already set up and wanted to connect it safely to my grid breaker box, how much would just those parts cost in Australia?

You'd start with a grid tied inverter in the first place. Which is what happens. It's not a DIY market. We have a very efficient and competitive solar PV installation industry.

Too often I hear news of people locally or in other US states who don't get a battery and their solar system is worthless when the grid goes down

It may not operate when the grid goes down but that does not make it worthless. The point of such systems is to save households money by reducing grid imports and earning credits for excess production exported to the grid. They are not designed to supply power 24x7. Considering the vast majority of our grid is very stable, outages are not that common where most people live (the urban and outer urban areas of our cities). Such systems do a very good job of saving households money, especially if people make the effort to adjust consumption patterns to self consume. Payback periods are typically 3-5 years.

And then I see years later it happens again. If you have 3 million doing this, awesome. Do most have batteries as well?

Less than 3% of those homes have batteries. Home batteries make very little financial sense here. Solar PV on the other hand is a financial no brainer for anyone who owns (or is buying) their own home, has reasonably suitable roof space and expect to be in their home for 5 or more years.

I feel my research on lifepo4 years ago always ended up being forums of Australians talking to each other about their lifepo4 cells. Meanwhile, we had $$$$$ batteries and few resellers. I don't think I know anyone locally that would even know what lifepo4 are.

DIY and LiFePO4 is a very small niche market here. The vast majority have little clue about such things.

 

[WYtreasure]

If I had an independent solar/battery/inverter system already set up and wanted to connect it safely to my grid breaker box, how much would just those parts cost in Australia?

This may not answer your question but is this basically what you're looking for?
Just to be clear, I am NOT "endorsing" the product.

1PC 220V 3P Mini Intelligent Automatic Transfer Switch Circuit Breaker 63A Dual Power Change-Over Switch for Office Buildings: Amazon.com: Tools & Home Improvement

1PC 220V 3P Mini Intelligent Automatic Transfer Switch Circuit Breaker 63A Dual Power Change-Over Switch for Office Buildings: Amazon.com: Tools & Home Improvement

www.amazon.com

 

[wattmatters]

If I had an independent solar/battery/inverter system already set up and wanted to connect it safely to my grid breaker box, how much would just those parts cost in Australia?

But in answer to this cost question, it will depend of the specific requirements of the home.

But I will give our specific example which cost A$600, or about $US440 (supply and fit by licensed electrician).

We have an 11kW grid tied solar PV system. But occasionally we have grid outages and having backup is important to us.

So I had an electrician supply and fit a power inlet and "break before make" transfer switch so I could connect a generator to provide power the house. This isolates the off-grid power supply and backed up circuits from the grid.

Because my home is 3-phase power it required a 3-phase transfer switch but wired in such a way that the essential circuits being backed up could be joined on a single phase while operating on backup. No 3-phase appliance is included on the backup supply.

The cost of having a licensed electrician supply install the power inlet and the 3-phase transfer switch was A$600, or about $US440. Here such work must be done by a licensed electrician, so their time (licence, expertise etc) is the largest cost component.

Since then I have replaced the generator with an off-grid 2.2kW solar PV system, 18kWh battery + AIO inverter. Solar PV keep the batteries on float ready for backup duties, as well as runs some loads, mostly the pool pump during the day plus sundry electronics 24x7.

Because the power is supplied via a plug in power inlet, the off-grid system can be removed and just the power inlet and transfer switch left in situ - any new occupant can use the power inlet to connect their own backup power source. Not that we have any plans to move, but the off-grid system can be pulled down pretty quickly if needed. 6 panels on the garage roof and the batteries, AIO and sundry cabling, fuses/breakers etc can be pulled out pretty quickly.

We had a 4-hour grid outage last week - a massive rain event caused havoc. We were fortunate to escape the worst (lots of devastation here, a hundred thousand were evacuated) but I have friends to the south who will be without power for at least a week. Flipped the transfer switch and we were operating on backup. I may at some point replace the manual transfer switch with an automated version. I can redeploy the manual switch to the mancave where one day I'll power it via an off-grid system.

 

[orangezero]

But in answer to this cost question, it will depend of the specific requirements of the home.

Thanks for the details. (deleted the rest only to avoid long repeated repost)

 

[WYtreasure]

But in answer to this cost question, it will depend of the specific requirements of the home.

The cost of having a licensed electrician supply install the power inlet and the 3-phase transfer switch was A$600, or about $US440. Here such work must be done by a licensed electrician, so their time (licence, expertise etc) is the largest cost component.

Yep, it depends upon the requirements of the home as well as the community. $440 is a good price to install a transfer switch.

I personally relocated the electric meter (240 volts, single phase) and the gas meter on this house for $30 in permit fees and a couple hundred in materials. It would have cost thousands if I was paying an electrician and a plumber to do the work.

 

[orangezero]

This may not answer your question but is this basically what you're looking for?
Just to be clear, I am NOT "endorsing" the product.

I see enough advantages in an isolated solar system I haven't been looking for this. I doubt I could do it myself and I certainly couldn't use some of the same equipment I already have for "off-grid", and that means $$$$. Most of the issues I envision can be solved by $$ or $$$$$ in some way, but I'd rather put that towards more solar panels or more battery or a larger inverter.

I could probably stop ranting online and just learn what all the actual methods are, but then again, I have a LONG way to go before I would ever sell energy back to the grid. I have an electric vehicle, house electronics, and then almost unlimited need for extra leftover energy to heat hot water and maybe, maybe, THEN consider a safe way to switch to house power or sell to grid.

I would not consider myself a typical solar user, but then again we are all on this forum

 

[WYtreasure]

I see enough advantages in an isolated solar system I haven't been looking for this...

I would not consider myself a typical solar user, but then again we are all on this forum

I'm not nermal either. Connect to the grid, no thank you. Have you heard of "The Backhoe Effect"? It's when your numbskull neighbor sticks some metal in the underground utilities and fries everything in your house. The grid can stay there, my system is over here.