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Swapping to lithium in my 5th wheel. Truck 12V 7pin disconnect needed?

KS_Kampers

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Ok.. I overworry things. I'm in the process of researching a conversion for my 5th wheel. I tow with a F250 2019 diesel. I've read that if you leave your trailer connected to the truck electrical, this can cause the lithiums to discharge into the truck when the truck is not running. I note that others say that while the truck is running, they do have the ability to provide a slight charge to the lithium bank on the trailer.

What is the best practice for the 7 pin 12V interface? DC/DC isolator or boost? Cutoff switch on the trailer? Leave it alone?

Tnx...

frank
 
I'd remove it or a DC to DC converter. At most you're pulling 30a which is helpful.
 
Hi, KS. Your post has two questions.

For your first question, regarding unwanted discharge of the 5th wheel Lithiums (back into the the truck, when the truck isn't running) - You should generally just remove the Trailer's 7-pin cable from tow vehicle's interface socket, whenever you will be leaving the truck engine off for more than around 1/2 hour. That definitely includes actual camping, but also includes long lunch stops.

Your second question concerns charging from the truck alternator. When the engine is running, nearly all modern "12v" trucks and SUVs maitain an operating voltage around 13.5 volts, using "ECM" management of the semi-smart alternator to keep voltage near that level. (In hard acceleration, the voltage can drop to less,. And right after engine start, the voltage wil be kept for a short time,to assist in recharging the starter battery.)

Because Lithium batteries "rest" at higher internal voltages than lead-acid btteries do, 13.5 volts does not normally provide enough excess "pushing powewr" above the voltage of the Lithium battery packs to send in very much power. That voltage is further reduced when current begins to flow within skinny wires - the resistance causes "voltage drop" at the end (by the batteries), and the amouint of "drop" incerases when more current and power is pulled through the wre path..

You will generally not see any any useful "charging" into the 5th wheel "House" batteries from the Truck, while towing down the road, unless you add a DC->DC boosting converter/charger unit within the 5th wheel. Those devices pull lower voltage from the 7-pin "Trailer-Battery-Charge" wire as input, and boost it higher to to actually charge the batteries - also slowing down (ansd eventually stopping) the current which they supply into the batteries, when they sense that the batteries are becoming near "fully charged".

They are not difficult to wire up, and they wil stop pulling power from the tow vehicle when the Tow Vehicle voltage falls low (as in the case of the engine not running, solving your first question as well.). The Victron models are more expensive than some others (such as Renogy), but they are also more configurable and reliable, offering both configuration and monitor capability from a cellphone App.) I think they're very good.
 
Does your 5th wheel use the house battery or separate battery for the emergency brakes?
 
Just a thought, but there is some wire that connects the battery to the 7-pin, right? Could you just stick a diode in there that would allow charging but prevent back feeding?
 
Fords have a relay that disconnects the trailer charge wire when the engine is off, it is in the engine compartment fuse box passenger side. Your battery won't discharge. I pulled the fuse on mine, don't miss the 5 or so amps charging at all....
 
Ok.. I overworry things. I'm in the process of researching a conversion for my 5th wheel. I tow with a F250 2019 diesel. I've read that if you leave your trailer connected to the truck electrical, this can cause the lithiums to discharge into the truck when the truck is not running.

This is not correct. Power is disconnected when the truck is off.

I note that others say that while the truck is running, they do have the ability to provide a slight charge to the lithium bank on the trailer.

Correct. I think Ford fuses the circuit at 30 amps. On a long drive it can potentially provide meaningful charge to a house battery but, I mean, just leave the house with it charged and don't worry about it.
What is the best practice for the 7 pin 12V interface? DC/DC isolator or boost? Cutoff switch on the trailer? Leave it alone?

I would just leave it alone and see what happens with your particular setup.

 
There is too little current coming through the 7 pin to help or hurt. I've actually measured mine from my superduty. If my solar is disconnected, I get a whopping 15a across 7 pin. Others have measured their trucks current and typically been in the 5-7a range. If my solar is activated, I will see 3-4a coming across the 7 pin. Ford's superduty doesn't allow back flow to the truck when the truck is not running.

If you want additional energy from the alternator, the easiest avenue is if you have upfitter switches, and install a DC/DC unit. I do have the upfitter switches, not quite sure why I ordered it, but I did. IMO, with my existing solar configuration, I don't need additional current from the truck.
 
Yes, you could probably ignore, but so easy to fix it.

The 7-pin wire goes into your trailer, find that wire that is the charging wire (12v+), do internet search for color codes on the trailer wires which are different color than the truck wires.
Then simply put an on/off switch (or DC circuit breaker) inline with that wire anywhere between the truck and your trailer battery, and disconnect/ turn off the wire to stop all charging, or turn it on if you want some, but
BUT, I advise using a DC to DC charger as mentioned unless you never need to, never plan to charge from the vehicle.

Your lithium batteries will be trying to pull a lot of amperage over the 7-pin, more, much more, than a lead acid battery would, and trailers are designed for lead acid batteries probably only as was the truck's wires. Lithium will pull more amps than lead acid.

5ers typically have a very long wire run as the wire comes out of the rear of truck then up to front of the trailer, not a very direct route. Long DC runs are bad.

Alternatively, there is probably a fuse on that wire you can simply just pull out if you do not want to do any work.

You should be able to leave your 7-pin plugged in while stopped. Unless your 7-pin is a do-it-yourselfer install where they hacked the trucks rear lights and/or 4-pin trailer plug to make wiring for the 7-pin, then as mentioned ,if it is factory installed, there will be a relay that turns off when your truck turns off so there will NOT be any electrical connection between your truck battery/alternator and your trailer anyway. The brake controller uses minimal power so is not a concern for days and days and days as far as power loss.
ALL trailer brakes use the trailer battery (or a battery on the trailer) to operate the brakes when the trailer breaks away from the vehicle in an accident. The brake controller does use vehicle power to operate the brakes under normal use, but will not be operating the brakes at all when parked unless you have a very broken controller....
 
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Your lithium batteries will be trying to pull a lot of amperage over the 7-pin, more, much more, than a lead acid battery would, and trailers are designed for lead acid batteries probably only as was the truck's wires. Lithium will pull more amps than lead acid.

5ers typically have a very long wire run as the wire comes out of the rear of truck then up to front of the trailer, not a very direct route. Long DC runs are bad.

Alternatively, there is probably a fuse on that wire you can simply just pull out if you do not want to do any work.

You should be able to leave your 7-pin plugged in while stopped. Unless your 7-pin is a do-it-yourselfer install where they hacked the trucks rear lights and/or 4-pin trailer plug to make wiring for the 7-pin, then as mentioned ,if it is factory installed, there will be a relay that turns off when your truck turns off so there will NOT be any electrical connection between your truck battery/alternator and your trailer anyway.....
0truck0 had a lot of good comments in that post, but I add this 'reply' to clarify his guess at the amperage over the 7-pin interfacece.

He is correct that nearly all fctory installed 7-pin interaces will only enable the the "Trailer Battery Charge" wire connection when the truck ignition is turned to at least "accessories". But some aftermarket installers may not have done that. He is also correct that you have the option of pulling the "TBC" fuse when you want to disable the truck battery connection, that will work even if the TBC wire doesn't go through an ignition-sitch managed relay. That fuse is probably inside the under-hood fuse box, but could be located under hte the dash board as well.

My complaint with 0truck0's post is his claim that "Your lithium batteries will be tryng to pull a lot of amperage", that part of his post wasn't correct. Lithium batteries, when not fully charged, don't actually PULL amperage at all - they only ACCEPT it, while the voltage on their terminals is high enough to push power into the batteries (and while BMS limits allow charging to occur).

When current into the batteries begins to occur, resistance within the wires along on the "long DC wire runs" causes the voltage difference at the battery terminals to fall. The amount of "voltage drop" varies according the amount of current, the wire sizes, and the wire lengths. (There are online calculators which you can use to create estimates.) In this situation, the running truck will have about 13.5 volts under the hood. If the coach batteries are all the way down to 20% state-of-charge, they will ACCEPT at least some charge current input until the voltage at their terminals falls below about 12.9 volts. But what is the maximum current which the wiring will allow, before creating too much "voltage Drop"?

If we assume a wire size of 10-AWG and a one-way distance of 40 feet, with source voltage of 13.5 volts, the end voltage will become inadequate to supoort higher levels of charging current at about 6 amps. Bigger or shorter wires could allopw for more current, buy you will not be able to charge those batteries at a higher rate - unless you add a DC->DC charger/converter unit.

The change to Lithium batteries wil not "pull a lot of amperage" when the wiring creates a lot of voltage drop - and the wiring will do that, unless you increase the wire sizes ($$$$) or add a boosting converter/charger unit.
 
The trailer battery charge circuit on factory installed systems has a diode that prevents backflow from the trailer side into the vehicle's electrical system.
 
lol, thanks for your input ricks, but ask me how I know you can burn out a 130 amp alternator on one drive....

more about alternators. They are meant to cycle, not run continuously. While there are 100% duty cycle alternators out there I will take a strong bet that anyone asking will not have a 100% duty cycle alt installed or they would not be asking. Regular alternators are meant to keep a starting battery charged, and to charge back the starting battery after an engine start, not to charge banks of dead batteries. They charge a lot at first, then when batteries are quickly topped off the alternator will really only provide the current that the vehicle needs, nothing more.
Typical for truck to have 90 amp alt, or even 130 amp alternator, but they do not put out this much very often. 130 is what we used to call "Ambulance Alternator" in the old days, as they had more power requirements. Today's vehicles are more power hungry and I really havent kept up with the industry lately.

DC to DC is a really good choice.
I have used dioeds but you do lose voltage across the dioed, so it is not ideal for long runs where you lose voltage anyway. The doide I used was on a class-c so batteries were much closer to the alternator than would be a trailer. A battery isolator solenoid would be a better choice as no voltage drop occurs across the solenoid (solenoid simply cuts the connection when the vehicle ign is off).
 
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