newbie questions, solar/lithium in a 5th wheel, where to start?

[corn18]

Corn18, so the Lynx and Gerbo are nice to haves? Not gotta haves?

Yes, nice to have.

For the distributor, it really is not expensive for what you get. A pair of Blue Sea 1000A bus bars will run you $80 x 2 = $160. And I was able to eliminate 4 circuit breakers which cost $35 each. So my old setup was $300. The Distributor is $210 + $35 for 4 fuses = $245. And the install is so much tidier. The hack to get the LEDs working was another $10. So it seems like a no brainer.


vs.


The Cerbo GX is not economical. It just provides an easy way to manage all the Victron stuff and have a cool display inside. You still need a laptop and dongle to make some changes like LiFePO4 charge profile.

I did get a Raspberry Pi and got that working, too. It is a lot cheaper and fairly easy to do.

Or just stick with the Victron Connect app on your phone and get a dongle to change things on your laptop. That will do everything you need.

 

[Cajunwolf]

Some folks like an automatic transmission, and some folks like a stick shift.

 

[Butcher]

The great thing is that there is no wrong way.

One thing that should be looked at with a critical eye, is all the options. Weigh them out and figure out what works for you. Don't trust anyone that says 'This is the best way'. The best way is the one that was researched and thought about, looking at the positive and the negative sides. Building a project with one manufacturer may mean that everything works well together, but it also may mean that their software/firmware is limiting to your needs. Choosing different manufacturers may get you everything you want, but never get it to work in harmony.

In the end, when the project is completed, wishing you did it another way just ruins the hard work in the project. By discounting any method without research is just eliminating options.

I get that Victron and Battleborn are big names and cost big dollars but I would argue that they are not the best way to spend your money. Having a product that works well means you can demand top dollar. Where does those extra dollars go? Check out the CEO's house. You'll know real quick who's more important.

Plus the fact, for me, it's fun looking at what is out there and what people are doing. It's amazing the creativity that is being posted. Critiquing everyone's project and picking out what works best for you.

 

[Scycle]

I am also starting my 5th wheel system which is 50A, and I am just learning and thoroughly confused because I can't go all-in at this point but would like to boondock as much as possible, don't know about full time yet.

So where to start, I need a new battery so a couple lithiums are on my mind then it goes crazy from there considering everything else that's needed and the Multiplus sound simple. From what I've seen that all the parts needed to create the system may add up to the cost of the Victron if you include a decent inverter charger, transfer switch, and other components. It makes it easy to do the split phase as well although I've seen inverter chargers that do that on 12v now as well but cost with $500 of the victron alone.

If I could just change the batteries to lithium would be a nice start because that will cost enough, and I thought a couple solar panels used portable to charge batteries for now, then need a charge controller and so on and so on.

So I guess I'm looking for suggestions where to stop if I want to change batteries and charge them with solar and possibly expand?

 

[Helitech]

Like you, I have just started down the same road. We are looking at being able to dry camp for a week or so at a time. My Cardinal already had an inverter for fridge, I added 2000 watt inverter/charger from Xantrex, have 3 100 ah Rebel Lifepo4 batteries coming soon. Haven't installed solar yet, but I have all the wiring in place and the PV breaker installed

 

[Scycle]

Helitech.
I've seen people use the toggle type of circuit breaker for the PV as you did and others use the other type below, as long as they're sized correct, would either work? I was going to start with 2 100ah brand undetermined, but I don't have anything yet, except a monitor. I see 2 Lynx distribution boxes, but do you need 2,I was thinking about getting the Power-in version then add the hardware for the fuses. I also see what looks like an auto transfer switch, so is that for the new inverter? Is the Cardinal 30 or 50A?

 

[Helitech]

Helitech.
I've seen people use the toggle type of circuit breaker for the PV as you did and others use the other type below, as long as they're sized correct, would either work? I was going to start with 2 100ah brand undetermined, but I don't have anything yet, except a monitor. I see 2 Lynx distribution boxes, but do you need 2,I was thinking about getting the Power-in version then add the hardware for the fuses. I also see what looks like an auto transfer switch, so is that for the new inverter? Is the Cardinal 30 or 50A?

I think codes require both sides of the PV to be on a breaker, someone else will have to chime in on that. My DIN box cost $15 and the breaker was $16. I used the Lynx Power In with the fuse conversion. (Super easy to do) I currently have 2 spaces open, 1 will be for Solar and the other a Victron DC to DC charger. Transfer switch is for the Generator, I have an LP Onan 5500. The 2000 Watt Xantrex inverter/charger (Freedom XC Pro) has it own transfer relay. I installed a 30 amp breaker in my panel and ran 10-2 wire to the inverter, the 10-2 out of it and back to a 2 breaker sub panel. The circuits for a large number of my outlets are then connected to the 2 15 amp breakers just like they were in the original breaker box. My Cardinal is a 50 amp. If I had more room (No generator) I would have gone with the Multiplus II.

 

[Paul_R]

I think codes require both sides of the PV to be on a breaker, someone else will have to chime in on that. My DIN box cost $15 and the breaker was $16. I used the Lynx Power In with the fuse conversion. (Super easy to do) I currently have 2 spaces open, 1 will be for Solar and the other a Victron DC to DC charger. Transfer switch is for the Generator, I have an LP Onan 5500. The 2000 Watt Xantrex inverter/charger (Freedom XC Pro) has it own transfer relay. I installed a 30 amp breaker in my panel and ran 10-2 wire to the inverter, the 10-2 out of it and back to a 2 breaker sub panel. The circuits for a large number of my outlets are then connected to the 2 15 amp breakers just like they were in the original breaker box. My Cardinal is a 50 amp. If I had more room (No generator) I would have gone with the Multiplus II.

Building codes don't apply to trailers, RV's, ect. But having a breaker on both sides is always a good idea if for no other reason than ease of isolation.

 

[Scycle]

Like you, I have just started down the same road. We are looking at being able to dry camp for a week or so at a time. My Cardinal already had an inverter for fridge, I added 2000 watt inverter/charger from Xantrex, have 3 100 ah Rebel Lifepo4 batteries coming soon. Haven't installed solar yet, but I have all the wiring in place and the PV breaker installed View attachment 87768View attachment 87771

I might do as far as the batteries, lynx power-in w/fuses so I'll have the catastrophic fuse and disconnect switch, what did you use? Looks like ANL fuse and maybe 4/0? It's tough to size components without the rest of the system but eventually I'd like to start with my 2 100ah, maybe 400w solar, 2000w inverter. Most system diagrams I see (even small ones) have a 400A fuse at the batteries but not sure what's in the lynx.

 

[Helitech]

I'm not going to be pulling huge loads, so I went with 2/0 cables and a 400 amp ANL fuse on a 750 amp rated fuse holder. I think a T fuse may be better though. In the power in, my fuses start at 60 amp and up to a 250 amp.

 

[Paul_R]

Good luck finding T fuses...

 

[Scycle]

This was a concern of mine when I first started my transition to LiFePO4 and solar. I had two inverters (one for residential fridge, one for the rest going through a sub panel), a converter/charger and two solar charge controllers. This turned out to be too complex. But it had lots of redundancy.

View attachment 79493


I grew weary of trying to remember how all of this worked and there is no chance my wife could operate this system, so I installed the MPII and that eliminated all of the complexity. Sure, I only have one inverter and the charger is now part of the inverter, but now the system is plug and play. It just works. I retained the dual SCCs because I am going to add more panels. I think this simpler system is more reliable than the redundant system. And I get a cool display in the camper.

View attachment 79495

Very nice diagram! This looks very close to what I envision except I will start about half this size and possible expansion. Wondering if this sounds reasonable: 2 100ah lithium, 2 100w panels portable for now, multiplus II (like simplicity, both lines back to rig panel, doesn't seem $$more than separate pieces), lynx power-in, 1 solar CC, & no Cerbo, display,etc? Questions: Would I be extremely oversized using your fuse and cable specs? Could the 50A breaker before the MP II be the Blue Sea din box or their breaker with the pushbutton/lever (not sure of technical name)? Is there a direct way to power the DC side of the rig panel? I see the DC/DC charger, but from what I gather from reading posts is that I don't need that with my TV ('21 F350 6.7) unless I want to fully charge the batteries-what is your TV?

 

[HRTKD]

I see the DC/DC charger, but from what I gather from reading posts is that I don't need that with my TV ('21 F350 6.7) unless I want to fully charge the batteries-what is your TV?

The purpose of adding a DC-DC charger is:
1. Provide a proper LiFePO4 charge profile
2. Don't overtax the tow vehicle's wiring and alternator.

Your 7-pin 12 volt circuit is limited to 30 amps (fuse and relay). A LiFePO4 battery has the potential to draw far more than that.

 

[Paul_R]

The purpose of adding a DC-DC charger is:
1. Provide a proper LiFePO4 charge profile
2. Don't overtax the tow vehicle's wiring and alternator.

Your 7-pin 12 volt circuit is limited to 30 amps (fuse and relay). A LiFePO4 battery has the potential to draw far more than that.

That 30 amp limit doesn't address an even more important concern - losses. The voltage your batteries will see after traveling down 40+ feet from your alternator on 10/12 gauge wire will be worse than useless. You need a dedicated circuit with a minimum of 4 gauge wire.

 

[corn18]

That 30 amp limit doesn't address an even more important concern - losses. The voltage your batteries will see after traveling down 40+ feet from your alternator on 10/12 gauge wire will be worse than useless. You need a dedicated circuit with a minimum of 4 gauge wire.

You don't need a dedicated circuit. I use a Victron 12/18 smart charger. My 10ga wire to the 7 pin and 30 A fuse on the tow vehicle are more than adequate to feed the 22-24V that the Victron needs to maintain a steady 14.2V @ 18A. And 18A is plenty while towing. It easily runs the residential fridge with some left over. The 1200W of solar on the roof takes care of charging.

 

[corn18]

Very nice diagram! This looks very close to what I envision except I will start about half this size and possible expansion. Wondering if this sounds reasonable: 2 100ah lithium, 2 100w panels portable for now, multiplus II (like simplicity, both lines back to rig panel, doesn't seem $$more than separate pieces), lynx power-in, 1 solar CC, & no Cerbo, display,etc? Questions: Would I be extremely oversized using your fuse and cable specs?

Fuses are for the wires, not the equipment. Using larger wires and the correct fuses to protect those wires is fine. Saves money if you plan to upgrade later.

Could the 50A breaker before the MP II be the Blue Sea din box or their breaker with the pushbutton/lever (not sure of technical name)?

Not sure what you mean. The 50A fuse is a dual pole 240V AC circuit breeaker. The Blue Sea breakers are DC. Maybe they make an AC 240V/50A dual pole I haven't seen.

Is there a direct way to power the DC side of the rig panel?

The MPII powers the DC side of the rig panel, even if the batteries are disconnected. I know this because I did it yesterday while troubleshooting a buzz. You can also power the DC side with just solar or just batteries or just the TV. I don't have switches in place to isolate all the systems, so the DC side just takes whatever is feeding it and sends it off to the batteries for charging or the DC loads.

Two days ago I was running the inverter off the solar only. Panels were getting 800W and that was plenty to power the inverter and run the residential fridge.

I see the DC/DC charger, but from what I gather from reading posts is that I don't need that with my TV ('21 F350 6.7) unless I want to fully charge the batteries-what is your TV?

My TV is a 2015 Chevy 2500HD gasser. I have a 160A alternator, 10ga wire to the 7 pin connector through a 30A fuse in the truck. That can deliver a whopping 13.2V @ 7 amps to the 5er batteries. I added a Victron 12-18 smart charger and that works a lot better. Just used the factory wiring.

 

[Paul_R]

You don't need a dedicated circuit. I use a Victron 12/18 smart charger. My 10ga wire to the 7 pin and 30 A fuse on the tow vehicle are more than adequate to feed the 22-24V that the Victron needs to maintain a steady 14.2V @ 18A. And 18A is plenty while towing. It easily runs the residential fridge with some left over. The 1200W of solar on the roof takes care of charging.

Yes, as long as you can dial up your charger to compensate for the losses you'll get in the wire between it and the batteries so the batteries actually see 14.2V you'll be fine. Just curious, how long is the run between the charger and the batteries?

 

[corn18]

Yes, as long as you can dial up your charger to compensate for the losses you'll get in the wire between it and the batteries so the batteries actually see 14.2V you'll be fine. Just curious, how long is the run between the charger and the batteries?

For my install, it's 4 ft through 8ga wire.

 

[Scycle]

Fuses are for the wires, not the equipment. Using larger wires and the correct fuses to protect those wires is fine. Saves money if you plan to upgrade later.

I'm going to use your sizing, it's makes sense.

Not sure what you mean. The 50A fuse is a dual pole 240V AC circuit breeaker. The Blue Sea breakers are DC. Maybe they make an AC 240V/50A dual pole I haven't seen.

Yes right that's AC, too much rolling around in my pea brain.

The MPII powers the DC side of the rig panel, even if the batteries are disconnected. I know this because I did it yesterday while troubleshooting a buzz. You can also power the DC side with just solar or just batteries or just the TV. I don't have switches in place to isolate all the systems, so the DC side just takes whatever is feeding it and sends it off to the batteries for charging or the DC loads.

Two days ago I was running the inverter off the solar only. Panels were getting 800W and that was plenty to power the inverter and run the residential fridge.

My TV is a 2015 Chevy 2500HD gasser. I have a 160A alternator, 10ga wire to the 7 pin connector through a 30A fuse in the truck. That can deliver a whopping 13.2V @ 7 amps to the 5er batteries. I added a Victron 12-18 smart charger and that works a lot better. Just used the factory wiring.

My window sticker lists 240CMP alternator, I see one up top, I thought there were two because I have two batteries-I need to check. I don't know what gauge wire is in the 7-pin. So I should be fine if I get the smart charger?

 

[Scycle]

Fuses are for the wires, not the equipment. Using larger wires and the correct fuses to protect those wires is fine. Saves money if you plan to upgrade later.

Not sure what you mean. The 50A fuse is a dual pole 240V AC circuit breeaker. The Blue Sea breakers are DC. Maybe they make an AC 240V/50A dual pole I haven't seen.

The MPII powers the DC side of the rig panel, even if the batteries are disconnected. I know this because I did it yesterday while troubleshooting a buzz. You can also power the DC side with just solar or just batteries or just the TV. I don't have switches in place to isolate all the systems, so the DC side just takes whatever is feeding it and sends it off to the batteries for charging or the DC loads.

Two days ago I was running the inverter off the solar only. Panels were getting 800W and that was plenty to power the inverter and run the residential fridge.

My TV is a 2015 Chevy 2500HD gasser. I have a 160A alternator, 10ga wire to the 7 pin connector through a 30A fuse in the truck. That can deliver a whopping 13.2V @ 7 amps to the 5er batteries. I added a Victron 12-18 smart charger and that works a lot better. Just used the factory wiring.

So I think I've come full circle on the planning side from basic to full blown and no where on the decision side. I'm curious about your opinion corn18 since you started small with separate/different branded components then updated and expanded if you think that's the way to go cost wise? I like the AIO for it's ease and right now looks like Victron has the only split phase output, but there is the MPP brand with one output only 1000w inverter. Even if I went with the MPII, I'm looking at other CC like the EPever and others but I know Victron is supposedly the best or at least more popular and many people go all Victron. I'm not so concerned about everything talking or the phone app, but do you think all-in-all there is substantial saving in using different brand components of equal quality?

 

[HRTKD]

It's hard to beat an all-in-one for a quick and easy install. But the need for split phase limits your options.

Look in the Solar Charge Controller subforum. There are a not insignificant number of problem posts about the EPEver controller. It's not a Tier 1 device like Victron or Midnite Solar. I would likely take an EPEver over Renogy.

Epever is money down the drain.

Well, seems Epever is a jinks product for me. Started with an Outback 80 which seem to be drifting voltage, so bought a 100 amp Epever unit. Checked one morn and found it died. Company said the would replace it, so got 2 60 amp units. Must have gotten a storm hit as today both bad. My Daly bms...

diysolarforum.com

 

[Scycle]

It's hard to beat an all-in-one for a quick and easy install. But the need for split phase limits your options.

Look in the Solar Charge Controller subforum. There are a not insignificant number of problem posts about the EPEver controller. It's not a Tier 1 device like Victron or Midnite Solar. I would likely take an EPEver over Renogy.

Epever is money down the drain.

Well, seems Epever is a jinks product for me. Started with an Outback 80 which seem to be drifting voltage, so bought a 100 amp Epever unit. Checked one morn and found it died. Company said the would replace it, so got 2 60 amp units. Must have gotten a storm hit as today both bad. My Daly bms...

diysolarforum.com

I don't know if it's a need for split phase, but would be nice and also easier than arranging the rv panel to power certain items on one line. I haven't researched extensively but it seems the tier 1 components are evenly priced to each other.

I see you have a F350 as well, mine is a 2021 and I'm wondering from your experience if a dc/dc unit is needed if I put lithium in the RV?

 

[HRTKD]

I don't know if it's a need for split phase, but would be nice and also easier than arranging the rv panel to power certain items on one line. I haven't researched extensively but it seems the tier 1 components are evenly priced to each other.

I see you have a F350 as well, mine is a 2021 and I'm wondering from your experience if a dc/dc unit is needed if I put lithium in the RV?

I have a 30 amp RV trailer, so split phase wasn't part of the equation. The Victron Multiplus II handles the two sides of the RV's main distribution panel. I helped a friend install one and the hardest part was setting the parameters.

I don't have the 7-pin circuit from the truck charging my LiFePO4 battery bank. I decided that I didn't want to deal with a DC-DC charger to enable a charge from the truck. I set up a small lead acid battery on the tongue to provide power to the trailer's breakaway brake system and that battery does get a charge from the truck through the 7-pin circuit. The LiFePO4 and lead acid batteries are distinct systems.

 

[Scycle]

I have a 30 amp RV trailer, so split phase wasn't part of the equation. The Victron Multiplus II handles the two sides of the RV's main distribution panel. I helped a friend install one and the hardest part was setting the parameters.

I don't have the 7-pin circuit from the truck charging my LiFePO4 battery bank. I decided that I didn't want to deal with a DC-DC charger to enable a charge from the truck. I set up a small lead acid battery on the tongue to provide power to the trailer's breakaway brake system and that battery does get a charge from the truck through the 7-pin circuit. The LiFePO4 and lead acid batteries are distinct systems.

I'm not looking to fully charge the rv battery bank with the truck only enough for breakaway system, but I haven't been able to get a consistent answer if there will even be an issue. I wouldn't think the truck manufacturer would not have the vehicle system protected from whatever might be plugged into it.

 

[corn18]

So I think I've come full circle on the planning side from basic to full blown and no where on the decision side. I'm curious about your opinion corn18 since you started small with separate/different branded components then updated and expanded if you think that's the way to go cost wise? I like the AIO for it's ease and right now looks like Victron has the only split phase output, but there is the MPP brand with one output only 1000w inverter. Even if I went with the MPII, I'm looking at other CC like the EPever and others but I know Victron is supposedly the best or at least more popular and many people go all Victron. I'm not so concerned about everything talking or the phone app, but do you think all-in-all there is substantial saving in using different brand components of equal quality?

For us, it came down to simplicity of use. The original, complex system did everything we wanted, but it was a cluge. Now that we have the MPII powering the whole AC distro panel powered via the MPII, the user experience is identical to being on shore power with the exception of load management while on batteries. Not much different than when we are at a campground with only a 30A hookup.

As far as brand, I got the blue disease. Once I got the Cerbo, I wanted everything on that slick panel. The only way to do that was to go all blue. I am even going to convert my tank monitors over to work on the Cerbo display.