Valence XP Super Thread

[Travis]

So if my laptop is connected all the time is that $600 u-bms doing anything?

Yes ... All of this info I have talked about in the first three posts & its in the manual. Having the laptop connected only enables the built in cell block balancers. The BMS does a lot more. It will turn on and off a high amperage relay to disconnect the battery Bank when there is over under voltage and over amperage conditions. It will also enable battery to battery balancing. The built-in boards have battery balancing bleed off resistors in addition to the cell block resistors. Because of the way the balancing boards operate The battery balancing is very important because the cell block bleed off resistors will not activate themselves because of a high-voltage condition. That's the job of the battery to battery bleed-off resistors. Most other brands will activate their bleed-off resistors all on their own in an over voltage situation. However the valence XP relies on the BMS

 

[Mrdanielmh]

Hi Travis, great post and information! I am based im the Uk and looking to get a u27-12xp for my camper. I can only find black ones which only have a 130ah capacity. I wondered if you had any thoughts or opinions on the black ones? Are they mostly the same? Worth trying to get a green one? I cantnfind5a data sheet anywhere!

 

[Travis]

Hi Travis, great post and information! I am based im the Uk and looking to get a u27-12xp for my camper. I can only find black ones which only have a 130ah capacity. I wondered if you had any thoughts or opinions on the black ones? Are they mostly the same? Worth trying to get a green one? I cantnfind5a data sheet anywhere!

I don't have any experience with the black ones. The manual for the green ones does mention it's upgrades over the black ones. It says. "
3. U-CHARGE REVISION 2 CHANGES AND UPDATES
3.1. U-Charge Rev 2
U-Charge Battery Modules:
• Communication cable connectors are now Amp Superseal automotive grade connectors
• Electrical and software backwards compatibility
• Communication cables and electronics are now field replaceable.
• Event logging capability has been added to the Battery electronics
• Balance current has been increased, reducing balancing time
• The handle on the U27, U24, and UEV models is now replaceable and removable
• The indicator LED is now moved to be more accessible when hold down features are used in a
system
• Module serial numbers are reported to the BMS
• Tamper proof features on the enclosure
Battery Management System (BMS):
• Fully sealed case to protect connections
• All low voltage communication, signal, and control lines are made through Amp Superseal
automotive grade connectors
• Tamper proof features on the enclosure
Accessories:
• Over molded bus termination connectors available
• Inter-battery bus supply voltage booster for large strings, available
• Communication connector adaptor for backwards compatibility to Rev 1"

 

[Mrdanielmh]

Perfect thank you!

 

[WinnieVan]

Travis -- this is incredible work you've put together! Thanks to you and everyone before you putting all this research into the batteries! Great to have this in one spot!

 

[Travis]

Travis -- this is incredible work you've put together! Thanks to you and everyone before you putting all this research into the batteries! Great to have this in one spot!

It appears as though the balancing board is active and enabled and working anytime the battery is communicating with something. So to answer your question about some kind of slave device to turn on and off with the ignition I would say yes. That should be possible. The U-BMS that muller industries sales would do exactly that. It even has an input pin to come from the ignition switch. It's expensive though.
If you want a do-it-yourself project based off a inexpensive little computer I have a feeling that this percentage gauge will get the job done. Click on this link will take you to a thread where a guy is using a small screen to communicate with the battery and show the percentage of charge.

Muller Industries - BMS for Valence U27-12XP

FYI, new product on market, a BMS for the Valence U27-12XP batteries Much less cost that Valence (hard to find) units, can program yourself easily. Tradeoffs, less overall features, but will probably handle 80% of users out there. https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/valence-battery-bms.html Many...

diysolarforum.com

You could connect the power for this little computer device to the battery and connect the power for the screen to the ignition switch and also to a momentary override switch so that you could check the state of charge anytime by pushing a button. The thing you have to realize though is that whatever is communicating needs to continue to communicate at all times during discharge otherwise the battery will not count the power coming out of it. in other words the percentage of state of charge will not remain accurate and will not drop when you're using power unless communication is active.
maybe you're not concerned with the state of charge being accurate in that case this device could be on only when you're concerned about balancing and that would probably get the job done. another thing to note is the balancers are slow so after a full charge you should leave the communication on until balancing is complete. This could take many hours and I think this is the reason the manual says you must let the voltage relax naturally without drawing any power from the batteries after reaching full charge.

Let me know if you try it. These are only my educated guesses I haven't actually tried it.

 

[Travis]

Travis -- this is incredible work you've put together! Thanks to you and everyone before you putting all this research into the batteries! Great to have this in one spot!

Perhaps one of the cheapest $250 manufactured devices to enable balancing between cell blocks would be this one. however it will not balance module to module so it's only good for people running all parallel systems.

Battery Management Systems :: Valence Battery Master BMS (VC1)

*Currently Unavailable Price is $250 This VC1 allows use of the original Valence bms that is built into each of the Valence U27-12XP batteries we stock This unit is the Master that controls each of the on-board slave units Only one is needed for each group of batteries wired together The VC1 plugs

www.thunderstruck-ev.com

 

[WinnieVan]

Doh -- I edited my post and lost the text since I was trying to put it in a different thread too....

I imagine doing this would basically ensure that my batteries are always balanced since I drive my RV a lot. Basically just a slave unit that connects to the batteries while the vehicle is on.

That in conjunction with a smart charger that provides over-voltage protection (Renogy DC-DC MPPT for me) and a Victron battery protect for 12v loads and a low voltage shutoff on the inverter for 120V loads would make these things pretty much fool proof -- at least for parallel connections. Obviously would love over current/temp/etc. protection if we end up getting that far -- but for my use -- I'm mostly doing parallel connections.

I should stock up on these batteries now -- I imagine the demand is going to skyrocket for these things if an open source and easy to build BMS becomes available!

Hope you find some time to keep working on it -- I'm good with computers but the code is hard for me to follow as I have absolutely zero experience with CANBUS. Happy to help where I can -- I'll peruse the code here shortly to see if I can understand what is going on logically.

Awesome work everyone -- this is what makes the internet so great.

Yeah -- I've seen that VC1 BMS.. definitely a possibility. My charger only goes to 14.4V and honestly I don't cycle my batteries that often -- so I reckon I'd be fine just "manually" balancing them by plugging them into a computer every-so-often.. or I could just let it ride... I reckon it'd be fine!!

 

[Travis]

It seems there is an abundance of high voltage U-bms's available. I have six of them. With a lot of help and some Bitcoin I have successfully reconfigured one for not just high voltage but super high voltage 550v. LOL and I'm using it now. I'm utilizing the pre-charge contactor as well. I think it can be reconfigured for a low voltage setup that's what I'll try next. 48v

 

[mannytheseacow]

I’ve had my laptop connected about a month now nonstop and two of my batteries won’t balance. They both have one cell bank that won’t go above 3.3v. I’m guessing this is why the batteries were retired. Has anyone else experienced this?

 

[mannytheseacow]

Also, if anyone else is tired of having their computer reserved for battery monitoring- I found a small Nextbook on eBay for $20 running windows 7 and it makes a really cheap/effective way to run the valence software 24/7.

 

[Travis]

I’ve had my laptop connected about a month now nonstop and two of my batteries won’t balance. They both have one cell bank that won’t go above 3.3v. I’m guessing this is why the batteries were retired. Has anyone else experienced this?

just being connected won't activate the balancing. You also have to bring the voltage up until you see some of the cells start balancing. The cell voltage indicator will be highlighted in blue when the balance resistor is active for that cell block. Normally between 13.8 and 14.6 volts is when you'll first start getting cells that need balanced. At any rate as long as you're above 14 volts the balancing should be initiated for sure and it might take five days holding it there. You can also take the side cover off if you get impatient and inject voltage directly to that sell block to catch it up. Once it's caught up it should remain in balance as long as you do a monthly balance. If it doesn't then there is a problem. Balancing every month won't take 5 days each time. Probably just a couple hours.

 

[mannytheseacow]

just being connected won't activate the balancing. You also have to bring the voltage up until you see some of the cells start balancing. The cell voltage indicator will be highlighted in blue when the balance resistor is active for that cell block. Normally between 13.8 and 14.6 volts is when you'll first start getting cells that need balanced. At any rate as long as you're above 14 volts the balancing should be initiated for sure and it might take five days holding it there. You can also take the side cover off if you get impatient and inject voltage directly to that sell block to catch it up. Once it's caught up it should remain in balance as long as you do a monthly balance. If it doesn't then there is a problem. Balancing every month won't take 5 days each time. Probably just a couple hours.

Hmm, I’m not sure I agree. The valence software has been communicating this whole time and indicates that balancing is active. I’ve watched the other 6 batteries balance out and seem to be working just fine but the other two are stuck on one individual cell bank. The batteries themselves stay at 13.8 - 14.1 v.

 

[Travis]

Hmm, I’m not sure I agree. The valence software has been communicating this whole time and indicates that balancing is active. I’ve watched the other 6 batteries balance out and seem to be working just fine but the other two are stuck on one individual cell bank. The batteries themselves stay at 13.8 - 14.1 v.

Yep you've described exactly what I've experienced except I've taken it one step further and let it balance for a very long time. You should read back I've gone into detail about it. It seems like two out of every 50 batteries need a lengthy balance. If you got them from me feel free to bring them over and I'll balance them for you or replace them if I can't.

 

[samike]

Great job with this thread Travis and everyone else chiming in with knowledge! I swear I have looked this thread and all other XP threads I could find and I don't think I have come across a definitive response to several folks asking similar questions regarding the BMS. An answer to my question below would be greatly appreciated.
I will be installing among other ancillary parts/pieces the following on my 1990 Class C Ford Econoline Camper/Truck
1. Renegy 300W Premium kit (40A MPPT charge controller)
2. 2000 W Pure Sine Wave Inverter
3. (1) XP 27 138AH battery------hopefully upgrading to 2 and maybe 3 batteries down the road

If I am connecting only a single battery now and in parallel down the road for a maximum of 3 but most likely 2, do I really need to have a BMS or a laptop with XP7 or can I allow my Charge Controller or a cheaper external battery monitor do what the BMS is intended for? Everything I think I've understood is that the BMS is only needed if hooking up in Series or for a large number of batteries?

A thorough reply so I can understand would be greatly appreciated as I am a neophyte to solar/batteries for the most part.

Thanks in advance for any and all responses and thanks for creating this forum Will!! You da man!

 

[Travis]

Great job with this thread Travis and everyone else chiming in with knowledge! I swear I have looked this thread and all other XP threads I could find and I don't think I have come across a definitive response to several folks asking similar questions regarding the BMS. An answer to my question below would be greatly appreciated.
I will be installing among other ancillary parts/pieces the following on my 1990 Class C Ford Econoline Camper/Truck
1. Renegy 300W Premium kit (40A MPPT charge controller)
2. 2000 W Pure Sine Wave Inverter
3. (1) XP 27 138AH battery------hopefully upgrading to 2 and maybe 3 batteries down the road

If I am connecting only a single battery now and in parallel down the road for a maximum of 3 but most likely 2, do I really need to have a BMS or a laptop with XP7 or can I allow my Charge Controller or a cheaper external battery monitor do what the BMS is intended for? Everything I think I've understood is that the BMS is only needed if hooking up in Series or for a large number of batteries?

A thorough reply so I can understand would be greatly appreciated as I am a neophyte to solar/batteries for the most part.

Thanks in advance for any and all responses and thanks for creating this forum Will!! You da man!

For your simple all parallel setup to accomplish balancing the four cell blocks inside each battery to each other you only need a laptop. As I've said before they have to communicate with something or they simply will not balance. I assume The victron systems communication is not adequate to accomplish this. In fact there are absolutely no systems except for the valence system and aftermarket systems created specifically for this purpose that will enable balancing.

I assume your inverter has a customizable shut off voltage set point which is good because it won't over discharge the batteries but since this is an RV your talking about you're probably going to have simple 12 volt loads pulling power from the battery so you are going to need a relay that will disconnect the batteries when they're dead or you will ruin them. Don't think you can be careful because no one is careful enough. You absolutely must have an automated system to disconnect the batteries when the voltage gets too low.

The cheap battery monitors that I posted near the beginning will work fine for this. Just get the right voltage and amperage for your needs.

Now if you want to be further confused
since your not dealing with that many batteries you could actually remove the valence balancing board completely and replace it with an aftermarket unit that will cover balancing and low and high voltage safety disconnect all in one unit. They're about $100 and you'll need 1 for each battery. I don't like that it's only 100 amps though because you are inverter is capable of drawing two hundred amps. If you bought this kind you should probably stack three of these on the first battery and then you can move them to the other batteries if you get other batteries later.

The way the valence system works really isn't better than other brands until you have a lot in series.

 

[samike]

For your simple all parallel setup to accomplish balancing the four cell blocks inside each battery to each other you only need a laptop. As I've said before they have to communicate with something or they simply will not balance. I assume The victron systems communication is not adequate to accomplish this. In fact there are absolutely no systems except for the valence system and aftermarket systems created specifically for this purpose that will enable balancing.

I assume your inverter has a customizable shut off voltage set point which is good because it won't over discharge the batteries but since this is an RV your talking about you're probably going to have simple 12 volt loads pulling power from the battery so you are going to need a relay that will disconnect the batteries when they're dead or you will ruin them. Don't think you can be careful because no one is careful enough. You absolutely must have an automated system to disconnect the batteries when the voltage gets too low.

The cheap battery monitors that I posted near the beginning will work fine for this. Just get the right voltage and amperage for your needs.

Now if you want to be further confused
since your not dealing with that many batteries you could actually remove the valence balancing board completely and replace it with an aftermarket unit that will cover balancing and low and high voltage safety disconnect all in one unit. They're about $100 and you'll need 1 for each battery. I don't like that it's only 100 amps though because you are inverter is capable of drawing two hundred amps. If you bought this kind you should probably stack three of these on the first battery and then you can move them to the other batteries if you get other batteries later. https://amzn.to/3aD2PQa

The way the valence system works really isn't better than other brands until you have a lot in series.

So, it sounds like I might want to pass on this less than 100 uses XP battery to save a few hundred as it will most likely not be much of a savings after the BMS purchase and labor to get it where I will need it? I got it for $600 but after 1 or 3 of the units you recommend I am at a Lion or BB battery cost. I don't even have a laptop running XP any longer so I will have nothing to communicate regularly with the internal load balancing module. Thanks for the thorough explanation Travis, much appreciated!

 

[morth]

So, it sounds like I might want to pass on this less than 100 uses XP battery to save a few hundred as it will most likely not be much of a savings after the BMS purchase and labor to get it where I will need it? I got it for $600 but after 1 or 3 of the units you recommend I am at a Lion or BB battery cost. I don't even have a laptop running XP any longer so I will have nothing to communicate regularly with the internal load balancing module. Thanks for the thorough explanation Travis, much appreciated!

The Valence software runs fine on Win 10.

 

[mannytheseacow]

Yep you've described exactly what I've experienced except I've taken it one step further and let it balance for a very long time. You should read back I've gone into detail about it. It seems like two out of every 50 batteries need a lengthy balance. If you got them from me feel free to bring them over and I'll balance them for you or replace them if I can't.

Thanks for the help, Travis. I’ve read and re-read the thread but it seems like a month of nonstop balancing should be sufficient to balance? I’ll leave them to balance for one more week and if they don’t come together I’ll take you up on your offer. I appreciate it.

 

[mannytheseacow]

The Valence software runs fine on Win 10.

Yes, windows xp, 7,8, 10... android devices running windows... the software is very flexible. I found a 4 tab version somewhere online. I can try to post it somewhere if anyone is interested.