Vote early! 60amp scc vs 80amp - and - EPever vs Outback ? need your opinions.

[Arikaree]

All, am inviting your opinion:

My design is for an 800watt off-grid as follows:
(usage- run 110V wood working tools, sm compressor, sanders, charge cordless tools, vacuum, etc.)

4 200W mono panels, 2 pair in series (NewPowa)
3 or 4 100Ah LiFePo4 batts (ExpertPower)

Vote: Either 60 or 80 amp solar controller?

Vote: Either EPever Tracer, or Outback FlexMax? Or other?

I would consider a 60A controller adequate given the above, but kinda unsure.
Am unable to expand the number of panels due to space limits, so 4 panels is it.
If I found space, I would add a 2nd and separate system.

Outback is spendier and offers Lithium support, whereas Tracers are popular but somewhat prone to quality or support issues, and some question whether they actually support Lithium or not. (I am not a fan of programming "User" configs, am not that familiar with batteries.)
I only want to invest in 1 controller, and prefer USA support -- so what would you do in this case?

Thanks for your input.

Ps: this began as Will's 400W blueprint, grew to a hybrid 600W system, and matured as the Road King 800 (kinda).
I'm blaming graph paper as the cause of this growth.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

I can't in good conscience cast a vote in either category.

First, it sounds like you're using a 12V system. I wouldn't support that at all. You're listing items you plan to power that have large surge loads and high running current. 12V is not the best choice.

Outback FM60 or 80 does not offer Lithium support. It allows for manual entry of charge parameters and thus can be made to work perfectly well as any LFP support. The FM60/80 must NOT be used with a temperature sensor, or it will apply lead-acid temperature compensation, which is not good for LFP.

Personally, I have yet to find a LFP "canned" program that I would choose to use over my own preferred settings.

If 4X 12V are on the table, then I'd go 48V. Now you only need a 20A controller.

Furthermore, you likely need to have a 3000-4000W inverter with good surge to ensure you can power any high surge items.

 

[time2roll]

60 amp Outback or 60 amp Morningstar. Would not seem to need 80. I only read about problems with EPever.
I have the Morningstar running 10 years no issues, very programmable.

 

[chrisski]

Would really depend on woodworking tools. Really need to design the system for the biggest, which is probably the compressor. As mentioned, a lot of things that run on an 1800 watt 15 amp 110 outlet in a house or even on a 115 amp 110 volt outlet on a generator won’t have enough surge power from an inverter to run. THat is the tool I saw listed that may drive a 3000 watt inverter just to cover the surge.

 

[A.Justice]

The first thing you need to do is get a clamp on multimeter that has an "inrush" feature. They are like $35 bucks on Amazon. You also need to get a "line splitter", that will allow you to clamp the meter onto anything with a plug.

Power tools (all electric motors) normally have two ratings, One is the "running" amps, and the other is "locked rotor amps". The LRA can be up to 10x higher than the running watts. You need to figure out at most how many tools you'll be running at the same time, add a 25-50% margin of safety, and that's what you need your inverters wattage to be, the "surge rating" of the inverter will be slightly higher.

Your biggest issue is going to be the surge current on the power tools. You might find you need a very large inverter to start your tools easily. I have an old AC sawzall that pulls almost 40 amps for a fraction of a second. 40 amps, 120v, AC turns into over 400 amps at 12v DC.

Anyway, where I was going with that (and to bring this whole thing back around to your original question) was to say that a 12 volt system probably won't meet your needs for woodworking tools. A 24 or 48 volt system is generally recommended for over 2000 watts. If you go with a higher voltage, your wiring will be much smaller and cheaper as well. So to answer your question, I recommend using a smaller, higher voltage charge controller.

I've got this cheapo clamp meter, it seems to work well, and it was the cheapest one I could find.

JOAUIAX Inrush Digital Clamp... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B096Z9MCWJ?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

 

[fafrd]

All, am inviting your opinion:

My design is for an 800watt off-grid as follows:
(usage- run 110V wood working tools, sm compressor, sanders, charge cordless tools, vacuum, etc.)

4 200W mono panels, 2 pair in series (NewPowa)
3 or 4 100Ah LiFePo4 batts (ExpertPower)

Vote: Either 60 or 80 amp solar controller?

Vote: Either EPever Tracer, or Outback FlexMax? Or other?

I would consider a 60A controller adequate given the above, but kinda unsure.
Am unable to expand the number of panels due to space limits, so 4 panels is it.
If I found space, I would add a 2nd and separate system.

Outback is spendier and offers Lithium support, whereas Tracers are popular but somewhat prone to quality or support issues, and some question whether they actually support Lithium or not. (I am not a fan of programming "User" configs, am not that familiar with batteries.)
I only want to invest in 1 controller, and prefer USA support -- so what would you do in this case?

Thanks for your input.

Ps: this began as Will's 400W blueprint, grew to a hybrid 600W system, and matured as the Road King 800 (kinda).
I'm blaming graph paper as the cause of this growth.

I have been using a 200V Tracer AN6420 powered by 3 380W half-cut panels in 1S3P to charge a 24V LiFePO4 since September and have been very happy with it.

Epever’s documentation is poorer than Outback’s and email exchange can often be less efficient than possible due to occasional translation confusion, but I’ve been impressed with the quality of the product and the responsiveness and knowledge of the customer support.

I built my brother’s off-grid system using Outback, so I’m familiar with both product lines.

If you are building for critical path (need to do everything to avoid the possibility of a failure/outage) and/or have the budget for top-cabin, go Outback.

But it you are looking for best bang-for-the-buck and can deal with a limited amount of DIY sleuthing/screwing-around, the newer 200V Epever SCCs have full support for LiFePO4 batteries and offer more programmability and functionality than the Outback’s (two programmable dry contacts).

If you only have space for 4 panels, I’m not sure why you are using 200W panels.

I got 3 380W panels for $150 each and it seems like you’d be better-off starting off with 2 or 3 larger-sized panels to leave yourself a slot or two open for if/when you decide you need more daily generation…

 

[Rocketman]

My vote-
Move to 24v (or 48v) if at all possible.

I am a Victron fanboy! Used it on my MotorHome.

So assuming there is a great reason for staying at 12v:

Victron mppt 150/60 or a 100/50 if you don’t mind panels being clipped above 700watts.

Assuming a 24v system:
Victron mppt 100/30 (saved $ over 12v)
Smartshunt
Multiplus 3000 or 5000 (depending on your loads).
Cerbo (if you are an informational junkie - like me - and want to see what is happening on all aspects to the system at a glance).
Lynx distributor ( if you like a nice easy bus bar - but it is a little expensive).

There is cheaper stuff out there. But high quality gear is priceles.

The difference between 12v and 24v - the mppt is much cheaper! Much smaller wires - everywhere!!! Fewer amps!

 

[Arikaree]

Clarifications:
Wood working tools will be used 1-at-a-time. This is a hobby shop, nothing more.
12 inch DeWalt compound saw draws 15amp, compressor is likewise small, 12 amp I recall.
So I will use a surge clamp to determine an appropriate inverter. TBD.

Outback actually does support Lithium and provides a white-paper in their download section for caveats. Nothing that I understood however. That said, a google search returned a number of links and YouTube videos describing Flexmax and LiFePo4 batteries. BattleBorn provides a recipe for configuring a FlexMax.

A recent post here included a link to a Tracer 4410AN ssc manual. That download listed a lithium battery settings table for "LFP", that I assume means LiFePo4 batteries.

So in some sense I presume Outback, EPever and other controllers "support" lithiums. But why does this all have to be so obscure? Its sciience, not hocus-pocus shazam shoulda-coulda nonsense. Someone oughta write a book. Or host a Lithium For Dummies thread.

 

[Arikaree]

Forgot to include these...

Batts are 12 volt 100Amp hour, I don't care to deal with 24V batteries.

Panels are 12v 210watt each. I plan to configure 2 panels in series for 24V, and the other pair likewise, resulting in 2 PAIR of panels (4 total) feeding 24V to the controller. Voc of each panel is 22.4V.

Why four 210W panels?... best fit of panel size vs. output vs. available roof space on my wood hobby shop.
With 100+ mph winds here, my options amount to selecting the best from a few bad choices.

 

[williamolyolson]

Batts work similarly to panels, if you wire 2 12v batts in series, it comes out to 24v.. So, with 4 batts, wired 2s2p, you have a 24v battery bank.

Then run the 4 panels in series to a decent 40amp SCC.

 

[fafrd]

Forgot to include these...

Batts are 12 volt 100Amp hour, I don't care to deal with 24V batteries.

Panels are 12v 210watt each. I plan to configure 2 panels in series for 24V, and the other pair likewise, resulting in 2 PAIR of panels (4 total) feeding 24V to the controller. Voc of each panel is 22.4V.

Why four 210W panels?... best fit of panel size vs. output vs. available roof space on my wood hobby shop.
With 100+ mph winds here, my options amount to selecting the best from a few bad choices.

The fact you don’t want to deal with 24V batteries is fine, but if you have an SCC with MPPT, I don’t understand why you are limiting yourself to 12V panels.

The Tracwr AN won’t start charging until PV string voltage is at least Vbat + 2V, but it can easily charge a 12V battery with 40V panels or even a series string of 3 40V panels.

I’m not understanding why you think 4 12V panels is a better choice than 2 or 3 40V panels?

Wouldn’t it be easier/safer to install 2 400W panels to withstand 100 mph winds than doing so with 4 200W panels???

 

[fafrd]

Batts work similarly to panels, if you wire 2 12v batts in series, it comes out to 24v.. So, with 4 batts, wired 2s2p, you have a 24v battery bank.

Good point (unless he has decided he has to go with 3 100Ah 12V batteries…).

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Clarifications:
Wood working tools will be used 1-at-a-time. This is a hobby shop, nothing more.
12 inch DeWalt compound saw draws 15amp, compressor is likewise small, 12 amp I recall.

15A * 120V = 1800W = 150A @ 12V

Get some beefy wires.

Batts are 12 volt 100Amp hour, I don't care to deal with 24V batteries.

Why? Negligibly higher cost on inverter, lower cost on MPPT, lower cost in wire.

Panels are 12v 210watt each. I plan to configure 2 panels in series for 24V, and the other pair likewise, resulting in 2 PAIR of panels (4 total) feeding 24V to the controller. Voc of each panel is 22.4V.

Would work great on 24V battery w/MPPT.

 

[Arikaree]

The fact you don’t want to deal with 24V batteries is fine, but if you have an SCC with MPPT, I don’t understand why you are limiting yourself to 12V panels.

Ans: somwere between ignorance and stupidity, my bad.

The Tracwr AN won’t start charging until PV string voltage is at least Vbat + 2V, but it can easily charge a 12V battery with 40V panels or even a series string of 3 40V panels

Yep, recently learned this. This led to my 12V battery bank theory.

I’m not understanding why you think 4 12V panels is a better choice than 2 or 3 40V panels?

Wouldn’t it be easier/safer to install 2 400W panels to withstand 100 mph winds than doing so with 4 200W panels???

Size matters,...wind-wise, was attempting to keep panel profile low. Turns out the NewPowa 24V 200W panel is slightly smaller than my existing 12v 200W panel, thereby making a wind "profile" 50% smaller than it is. My bad.

On the other hand, notwithstanding terrible wind events, you can't beat my mountain views here. Not bad.

FINALLY: these replies all are beginning to make sense.

A recent reply stated "Any decent 24V 40A MPPT controller would work"... any clue on make and model? From all my searching, most scc's handle 24V, higher amp controllers also handle 36 and 48V. I considered the 60A and 80A controllers due to their higher Max PV, 150V in my case.

re 15 amp DeWalt saw comment, "15A * 120V [not equal] to 150A", but 1800Watts. Am I not correct?

 

[fafrd]

Ans: somwere between ignorance and stupidity, my bad.

Yep, recently learned this. This led to my 12V battery bank theory.

Size matters,...wind-wise, was attempting to keep panel profile low. Turns out the NewPowa 24V 200W panel is slightly smaller than my existing 12v 200W panel, thereby making a wind "profile" 50% smaller than it is. My bad.

On the other hand, notwithstanding terrible wind events, you can't beat my mountain views here. Not bad.

FINALLY: these replies all are beginning to make sense.

A recent reply stated "Any decent 24V 40A MPPT controller would work"... any clue on make and model? From all my searching, most scc's handle 24V, higher amp controllers also handle 36 and 48V. I considered the 60A and 80A controllers due to their higher Max PV, 150V in my case.

re 15 amp DeWalt saw comment, "15A * 120V [not equal] to 150A", but 1800Watts. Am I not correct?

You have to ask your question more clearly.

You started asking about outback versus Epever - both will charge at 12V, 24V, or 48V.

Maximum string voltage is something you need to determine. With 150V max MPPT you’ll probably be limited to a 2S string (at least with newer, higher-powered panels). 200V max string voltage is more future-proof (if the premium isn’t too high).

So if you are now switching from 12V panels to 24V panels, the 40A Epever Tracer 4015AN is a solid budget choice or step up to the 50A Tracer 5020AN if you want to give yourself more headroom and future proofing.

And if along with your decision to move up to 24V panels your also considering moving to a 24V battery, max current charging a 24V battery with 800W of panel input will pretty much never exceed 30A, so you could even step down to the Tracer 3015AN if the savings @ <$100 is attractive: https://www.amazon.com/EPEVER-Charg...ocphy=9032080&hvtargid=pla-370802953904&psc=1

 

[Arikaree]

You have to ask your question more clearly.

You started asking about outback versus Epever - both will charge at 12V, 24V, or 48V.

Apologies for this, I thought I had most of my design nailed down. Not so much.

Maximum string voltage is something you need to determine. With 150V max MPPT you’ll probably be limited to a 2S string (at least with newer, higher-powered panels). 200V max string voltage is more future-proof (if the premium isn’t too high

So if you are now switching from 12V panels to 24V panels, the 40A Epever Tracer 4015AN is a solid budget choice or step up to the 50A Tracer 5020AN if you want to give yourself more headroom and future proofing.

Am stuck with my existing panels, 12v200W, am already invested, so no upgrades considered. Voc is 19.2; have earlier connected 2 panels in series and registered 36V. Regardless, a Max PV of 150V with the 4015AN (Triron series) appears a safe choice, capable of handling my existing panels. Cost is half of the Outback 60, I'll apply the savings to a 24V PSW inverter.

And if along with your decision to move up to 24V panels your also considering moving to a 24V battery, max current charging a 24V battery with 800W of panel input will pretty much never exceed 30A, so you could even step down to the Tracer 3015AN if the savings @ <$100 is attractive: https://www.amazon.com/EPEVER-Charg...ocphy=9032080&hvtargid=pla-370802953904&psc=1

Today's replies have convinced me to go with a 24V battery bank, it makes sense; I have four 12V 100Ah batts on hand to make that work.

The Tracer 3015AN has a MaxPV of 100V, so I'll opt for the 40A Triron 4015AN and its 150 max (if I can find it), else the Tracer 5415AN. Costs are equivalent.

This thread has been an immense help, adding to my several year's of mulling over Will's book, videos and other sources.

My thanks to all here for your patience, experience, and guiding me out of the murk. And here I thought I was on the home stretch when I opened this thread. Wow.

 

[fafrd]

Apologies for this, I thought I had most of my design nailed down. Not so much.

Am stuck with my existing panels, 12v200W, am already invested, so no upgrades considered. Voc is 19.2; have earlier connected 2 panels in series and registered 36V.

You need to calculate worst-case Voc at the coldest temps your panels will ever see (at night). At least a 1-2% increase is typical, so figure on just under 40V for a 2S string or just under 80V for a 4S string…

Regardless, a Max PV of 150V with the 4015AN (Triron series) appears a safe choice, capable of handling my existing panels. Cost is half of the Outback 60, I'll apply the savings to a 24V PSW inverter.

I’m not sure whether by ‘Triron’ you meant ‘Tracer’ or not, but you can easily get away with a 100V Tracer 3015AN since even a string of 4 of the panels you already have will never get close to 100V and your charge current when charging a 24V battery will never exceed 30A…

And as far as a 24V PSW, I’m very happy with my 3kW 24V Reliable PSW: https://www.amazon.com/Reliable-RBP...t=&hvlocphy=9032080&hvtargid=pla-825538526368

Today's replies have convinced me to go with a 24V battery bank, it makes sense; I have four 12V 100Ah batts on hand to make that work.

The Tracer 3015AN has a MaxPV of 100V, so I'll opt for the 40A Triron 4015AN and its 150 max (if I can find it), else the Tracer 5415AN. Costs are equivalent.

A 4015AN or 5425AN provides you with more headroom and future-proofing, so go for one of those if the price is right…

This thread has been an immense help, adding to my several year's of mulling over Will's book, videos and other sources.

My thanks to all here for your patience, experience, and guiding me out of the murk. And here I thought I was on the home stretch when I opened this thread. Wow.

If I was in your same shoes, I’d be more concerned that I had sufficient headroom on the inverter side of things rather than the charger. It sounds like you’ve got several motors you are charging, so make sure you’ve got enough inverter Watts to satisfy inrush currents.

That 3kW Reliable can handle inrush up to 6kW…

 

[time2roll]

If you are putting LFP battery in series there needs to be a method to keep them in balance.

 

[fafrd]

If you are putting LFP battery in series there needs to be a method to keep them in balance.

He stated ‘12V 100Ah’ which I assume means a standard LA battery…

 

[Arikaree]

He stated ‘12V 100Ah’ which I assume means a standard LA battery…

Nope... all LiFePo4's, from ExpertPower

I'll look into a decent battery balancer, unless anyone would like to make a recommendation.

EPever uses TRIRON for some "new and improved" Tracer lineups. Marketing.