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Your Ideal Offgrid New Construction Setup

Respectfully, the quote you received (in post #70), does that total include shipping? More importantly, did you get a quote for the balance of system components?

We want you to succeed, but hope you understand there are factors you may not have included (mistakes and oversight from inexperience)
 
KITROBASKIN said:
Respectfully, the quote you received (in post #70), does that total include shipping? More importantly, did you get a quote for the balance of system components?

We want you to succeed, but hope you understand there are factors you may not have included (mistakes and oversight from inexperience)
Click to expand...

The quote was actually for $73k, but didn't include solar mounts, PV Cable, and other (likely small dollar) items. I'm not done price shopping, but my point was that for around $20k over what I would have to pay the utility company, I can have a chance to vitually eliminate my energy costs well into the future.

I'll share more as I get closer to pulling the trigger. Thanks for your help!
 
Also, Quattrohead, I believe that since my installation is going to be in a shed, separate from our house, that the Victron does not need to be UL certified.
 
FWIW, I've found that people can think of a million downsides to just about everything. Keep doing your homework, research various suppliers, and find a good supplier (Current Connected has been solid for me). Personally, I don't think your thinking is off. I might make some different equipment choices, but those are just personal preferences. It's all doable. I have several friends who struggle with the idea of not being connected to the grid. They're great people, but have different priorities and fears. Keep at it.
 
Hey Gang, My builder is recommending that I skip the air tight fireplace and instead go with a boiler outside. I know almost nothing about them, so any and all guidance is appreciated! Ideally, it would be tied into our HVAC, hot water, and even a hot tub, if possible.
 
mecdatlanta said:
Hey Gang, My builder is recommending that I skip the air tight fireplace and instead go with a boiler outside. I know almost nothing about them, so any and all guidance is appreciated! Ideally, it would be tied into our HVAC, hot water, and even a hot tub, if possible.
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I think you are referencing wood boilers, and not gas. Assuming that... Wood boilers (commonly outdoor, although indoor units also available) are wonderful beasts, but they consume very large quantities of wood and require care and feeding 2-3x per day. This is not the same as putting a couple of logs in the woodstove, but more like putting a day's worth of woodstove wood into the boiler at each "feeding". And unlike a woodstove, you can't generally just let them go out and sit unattended for days or weeks if you decide to go away for a winter vacation because you have this pesky tank of water (and pipes) surrounding the boiler, and it can freeze.

I have several friends that use wood boilers here in Maine. They can absolutely provide enough hot water to heat the house (and maybe a barn), domestic hot water, and yes, even a hot tub. But most use 10-12 cords of wood each winter, and if they want to go out of town for a day or two, someone has to be recruited to go feed the beast. Personally, I decided to add more solar and go with an air to water heat pump backed up with a propane heating source as needed (still to be installed before winter) and I have more than 20 acres of forest available as a "free" wood source. The labor required to harvest 10-12 cords of wood each year and feed a boiler 2-3x per day was just more than I was willing to do.
 
mecdatlanta said:
I've learned about dual fuel heat pumps, but what about dual fuel hot water tanks? It seems to me that having both the hp and hot water tank being able to run on electric or propane would make January a lot easier to get through.
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If you have a battery bank that can be charged by the solar panels and from the propane generator, all of your electric devices are "dual fuel". I would keep it simple. You have the room for a large ground mount solar array. I would have all my appliances be electric except for heating of the home (location dependent) and instant hot water heater (expected usage dependent).
 
You bring up some good points Madcodger and SolarFlares.

As we become empty nesters (~5 years), we plan to spend our winters in south FL. So not only will there not be anyone there to feed the wood boiler five years from now, there won't really be a need for heat above that which is needed to keep pipes from freezing in the house. If we are away for 3 - 4 months during the winter, I am sure the solar + battery setup could handle generating enough heat to keep the pipes in the house from freezing. But then we still really only need to heat our home for our family for the next 5 winters in GA. So the wood boiler does seem like overkill...

Here are my options (let me know what you would do!):
  1. Keep adding solar until I get to the "worst case scenario" in terms of low winter sunlight and still have enough to heat our home. This assumes using electric-only heat pumps and/or mini splits.
  2. Keep adding batteries until I have so much storage that I could get through the worst case sunlight scenario. This assumes using electric-only heat pumps and/or mini splits.
  3. A combination of 1 and 2.
  4. Install a dual fuel heat pump so that I can heat using propane when solar is insufficient (this would allow me to have less solar and/or batteries).
  5. Install an air tight wood stove + chimney in our home.
  6. Install a wood boiler to heat our home and provide hot water for the next 5 years and whenever we decide to not winter in FL (pretty rare, but could happen).
After Madcoger's reply, a wood boiler seems less desirable (especially the freezing part - although I imagine I could run some heat tape to avoid freezing). The little research I did also seems to indicate that an installation costs $15k to $30k, depending on whether one chooses a conventional vs gasification solution. That's a steep initial investment. I could burn a lot of propane before I ever reach those numbers (and I wouldn't have to cut/split/stack/store wood!).

Keep in mind that I will have a propane generator, no matter what, to charge up batteries if they reach a predetermined low level.

I like SolarFlare's idea that, with a propane generator, I already have "dual fuel" in that it can charge up my battery bank during low sun periods. I also like the idea of keeping things simple. Introducing propane in the house, even if only to fuel the dual fuel hp, is less desirable to me than keeping everything electric. I guess it comes down to how much more propane would be consumed by the generator, to charge up the batteries and keep the all-electric hps working vs sending propane to dual fuel hps. I don't know the answer to that, but I assume that burning propane to generate heat is considerably more efficient than burning propane to generate electricity to then run an all-electric configuration of hps to heat a home.

Thanks for your feedback!
 
mecdatlanta said:
You bring up some good points Madcodger and SolarFlares.

As we become empty nesters (~5 years), we plan to spend our winters in south FL. So not only will there not be anyone there to feed the wood boiler five years from now, there won't really be a need for heat above that which is needed to keep pipes from freezing in the house. If we are away for 3 - 4 months during the winter, I am sure the solar + battery setup could handle generating enough heat to keep the pipes in the house from freezing. But then we still really only need to heat our home for our family for the next 5 winters in GA. So the wood boiler does seem like overkill...

Here are my options (let me know what you would do!):
  1. Keep adding solar until I get to the "worst case scenario" in terms of low winter sunlight and still have enough to heat our home. This assumes using electric-only heat pumps and/or mini splits.
  2. Keep adding batteries until I have so much storage that I could get through the worst case sunlight scenario. This assumes using electric-only heat pumps and/or mini splits.
  3. A combination of 1 and 2.
  4. Install a dual fuel heat pump so that I can heat using propane when solar is insufficient (this would allow me to have less solar and/or batteries).
  5. Install an air tight wood stove + chimney in our home.
  6. Install a wood boiler to heat our home and provide hot water for the next 5 years and whenever we decide to not winter in FL (pretty rare, but could happen).
After Madcoger's reply, a wood boiler seems less desirable (especially the freezing part - although I imagine I could run some heat tape to avoid freezing). The little research I did also seems to indicate that an installation costs $15k to $30k, depending on whether one chooses a conventional vs gasification solution. That's a steep initial investment. I could burn a lot of propane before I ever reach those numbers (and I wouldn't have to cut/split/stack/store wood!).

Keep in mind that I will have a propane generator, no matter what, to charge up batteries if they reach a predetermined low level.

I like SolarFlare's idea that, with a propane generator, I already have "dual fuel" in that it can charge up my battery bank during low sun periods. I also like the idea of keeping things simple. Introducing propane in the house, even if only to fuel the dual fuel hp, is less desirable to me than keeping everything electric. I guess it comes down to how much more propane would be consumed by the generator, to charge up the batteries and keep the all-electric hps working vs sending propane to dual fuel hps. I don't know the answer to that, but I assume that burning propane to generate heat is considerably more efficient than burning propane to generate electricity to then run an all-electric configuration of hps to heat a home.

Thanks for your feedback!
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Can the propane generator be autostarted based on a battery percentage level? I know the solark 15k has that capability and I'm sure the EG 18kpv does too. This would let you stick to using electric for the heat pump(s) and should be faily hands off. This also keeps your propane lines to a minimum and your thermstat programming to a minimum (doesn't need to control 2 different units).

As for the question of more panels vs more batteries, I would lean towards more panels since you have the space. And depending on your technical skill its probably easier to add more batteries down the road than it is panels. You could see how this operates over a whole year. If you feel like you are using too much propane to charge the batteries you can buy more batteries.

Side note, if you are using a hot water heater with a tank, make sure to install this on a smart circuit or a 240v smart switch you can control through whatever automation system you are using (if you more DIY i would recommend hubitat). In my case, I turn off my hot water heater during extended grid outages to save some battery power until the grid is restored.
 
SolarFlares said:
Can the propane generator be autostarted based on a battery percentage level? I know the solark 15k has that capability and I'm sure the EG 18kpv does too. This would let you stick to using electric for the heat pump(s) and should be faily hands off. This also keeps your propane lines to a minimum and your thermstat programming to a minimum (doesn't need to control 2 different units).

As for the question of more panels vs more batteries, I would lean towards more panels since you have the space. And depending on your technical skill its probably easier to add more batteries down the road than it is panels. You could see how this operates over a whole year. If you feel like you are using too much propane to charge the batteries you can buy more batteries.

Side note, if you are using a hot water heater with a tank, make sure to install this on a smart circuit or a 240v smart switch you can control through whatever automation system you are using (if you more DIY i would recommend hubitat). In my case, I turn off my hot water heater during extended grid outages to save some battery power until the grid is restored.
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Yes, the generator can be auto-started by the Victron also.

Good point about being able to take the hot water tank offline. (y)

At the end of the day, I buy propane and a generator to use both. I don't want to overuse them, but I'm not afraid to use a little more than I planed for / hoped. Like you said, I can always adjust if I find that I am using more than I'd like.
 
HalfBaked said:
Careful with stucco on metal. It will hold moisture against the metal surface, encouraging rust.
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Insulating is most effect on the outside of the structure at minimum two inches of closed cell ISo or Poly covered with wire lathe and then stucco
 
mecdatlanta said:
As we become empty nesters (~5 years), we plan to spend our winters in south FL. So not only will there not be anyone there to feed the wood boiler five years from now, there won't really be a need for heat above that which is needed to keep pipes from freezing in the house. If we are away for 3 - 4 months during the winter, I am sure the solar + battery setup could handle generating enough heat to keep the pipes in the house from freezing. But then we still really only need to heat our home for our family for the next 5 winters in GA. So the wood boiler does seem like overkill...
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I wouldn't buy 25 year panels to provide 5 years of heat. I'd go for the cheapest upfront cost even if the monthly cost is higher. Because you'll only have 5 years * 3-4 months = 15-20 months of that monthly cost. Plus it's not even your main source of heat, just supplemental / backup.

A simple propane furnace might be cheapest upfront. Or since you need a good generator anyway, maybe get a water cooled one that can easily send waste heat into the house instead of just heating the great outdoors. A generator driving heat pumps while also rejecting waste heat into the house is very efficient.
 
Here's our plan for the new property:

- Install air-to-water heat pump that will heat the hot water for the hydronic system most of the time. But, purchase one that has dual fuel capability (probably now switching to Viessmann instead of waiting for Mitsubishi) for especially cold periods, or periods of extended lack of sun.
- Use propane as that dual duel, for several reasons. Those include already having it on hand for the generator, and the fact that a less expensive (compared to a boiler) tankless hot water heater could be used when that propane-fueled hot water is required. Definitely install a buffer tank in the system.
- I would not generally rely on the generator to produce electricity that will power the heat pump, especially during coldest weather, as it becomes an inefficient way to ultimately do what the propane heat source could do.
- I also plan to automate this and hope to use a Hubitat device for that (I own four of them), although that depends somewhat on being able to integrate with the heat pump. I think but am not certain that there is already an integration between the Cerbo GX and Viessmann system, but you'll need to check on that yourself as I'm using EG4. It shouldn't take much to just tell the heat pump to go into economy (lower room temp) mode while telling the tankless to take over, but that's the next convo with my HVAC person.

One thing I'm discovering is to plan FOR, but not AROUND, worst case scenarios. In our area, we might get a few days of subzero weather each year, but those temps typically occur for only a few hours overnight, and only for a few days at a time. The dual fuel system can deal with that easily, without having to install a crazy-expensive heat pump or massive numbers of panels or batteries. The same is true for electricity generation. If the generator can be relied on to recharge batteries for that one week of the year when it's especially overcast (and a few "top ups" here and there as needed) that's a lot less costly than either over paneling or installing an excessive number of batteries. All things in moderation, as they say.
 
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Madcodger said:
Here's our plan for the new property:

- Install air-to-water heat pump that will heat the hot water for the hydronic system most of the time. But, purchase one that has dual fuel capability (probably now switching to Viessmann instead of waiting for Mitsubishi) for especially cold periods, or periods of extended lack of sun.
- Use propane as that dual duel, for several reasons. Those include already having it on hand for the generator, and the fact that a less expensive (compared to a boiler) tankless hot water heater could be used when that propane-fueled hot water is required. Definitely install a buffer tank in the system.
- I would not generally rely on the generator to produce electricity that will power the heat pump, especially during coldest weather, as it becomes an inefficient way to ultimately do what the propane heat source could do.
- I also plan to automate this and hope to use a Hubitat device for that (I own four of them), although that depends somewhat on being able to integrate with the heat pump. I think but am not certain that there is already an integration between the Cerbo GX and Viessmann system, but you'll need to check on that yourself as I'm using EG4. It shouldn't take much to just tell the heat pump to go into economy (lower room temp) mode while telling the tankless to take over, but that's the next convo with my HVAC person.

One thing I'm discovering is to plan FOR, but not AROUND, worst case scenarios. In our area, we might get a few days of subzero weather each year, but those temps typically occur for only a few hours overnight, and only for a few days at a time. The dual fuel system can deal with that easily, without having to install a crazy-expensive heat pump or massive numbers of panels or batteries. The same is true for electricity generation. If the generator can be relied on to recharge batteries for that one week of the year when it's especially overcast (and a few "top ups" here and there as needed) that's a lot less costly than either over paneling or installing an excessive number of batteries. All things in moderation, as they say.
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I hadn't really considered air-to-water. Why did you decide on that path? As I search Viessmann on youtube, I only seem to find non-US installs. Air-to-water in general seems to be less talked about than air-to-air systems. My biggest fear would be getting into a technology that isn't widely supported here in the US. Are you not concerned about that?

The home automation stuff is interesting, but I feel like I am missing something. Other than turning lights on/off, opening/closing power blinds, etc... What is the main reason for needing home automation? HVAC systems come with their own set of controls, so I don't need to use home automation solutions for that. I also think that the Sol Arks and Victrons of the world allow for some automation and control over what gets power and when, if I am not mistaken.
 
Our lot is sloped. Does anyone have any insights they can share on setting up panels on a sloped lot? Do you recommend an off the shelf rack system, or is DIY the way to go?
 
mecdatlanta said:
I hadn't really considered air-to-water. Why did you decide on that path? As I search Viessmann on youtube, I only seem to find non-US installs. Air-to-water in general seems to be less talked about than air-to-air systems. My biggest fear would be getting into a technology that isn't widely supported here in the US. Are you not concerned about that?

The home automation stuff is interesting, but I feel like I am missing something. Other than turning lights on/off, opening/closing power blinds, etc... What is the main reason for needing home automation? HVAC systems come with their own set of controls, so I don't need to use home automation solutions for that. I also think that the Sol Arks and Victrons of the world allow for some automation and control over what gets power and when, if I am not mistaken.
Click to expand...
Home automation for your HVAC and hot water heater and other large loads will let you turn them off to conserve power when your batteries get low. Or you can schedule them based other factors like time of day or temperature or if you are home or not. Conserving power will be the name of the game now that you are completely off grid.

mecdatlanta said:
Our lot is sloped. Does anyone have any insights they can share on setting up panels on a sloped lot? Do you recommend an off the shelf rack system, or is DIY the way to go?
Click to expand...

Which direction is the slope? Hopefully south facing. That would be the easiest. But I'm sure others can chime in with ground mounts they recommend.
 
SolarFlares said:
Home automation for your HVAC and hot water heater and other large loads will let you turn them off to conserve power when your batteries get low. Or you can schedule them based other factors like time of day or temperature or if you are home or not. Conserving power will be the name of the game now that you are completely off grid.



Which direction is the slope? Hopefully south facing. That would be the easiest. But I'm sure others can chime in with ground mounts they recommend.
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I would say the area where I am thinking of putting the panels slopes more west, but slightly south.
 
That's great for grid-tie with higher time of use rates in the afternoon.
Offgrid you want power all day.

How steep a slope? You might make WSW array parallel to ground (or maybe steeper sloped, depending on altitude of sun when facing that way, and whether you want more winter or summer power.)

But also make an array tilted more East, to catch morning sun.


I've used Unirac U/LA because that's what a vendor sold me years ago.
Iron Ridge has a similar product.
Both use aluminum rails with either top-clamp (good for roof mount) or bottom bolts.
Convenient and robust, not cheap. With panels so cheap it hurts to spend more $$ on mounts than panels.

Very handy to use commercially available rails and hardware.
Salvage steel pipe and DIY brackets should keep cost down.

Most would used piers set in concrete. Some use ground screws rotated in by auger motor on a tractor.
 
mecdatlanta said:
Some great questions. The utility is not going to reduce the $30k+ charge since it's only to my house, which is going to be at the back of our lot.

I don't yet know the total cost of the project. I just assumed that the payback would be somewhere around 10-15 years. I also assumed that going off-grid would be the way to go with new construction. Maybe I'm wrong?

I know a lot of folks up our way heat with propane. I was hoping to only use that as a secondary source and that was the thinking behind the dual fuel heat pump.

We will have a well. Thanks for the info on Grundfo!
Click to expand...


You;

Some great questions. The utility is not going to reduce the $30k+ charge since it's only to my house, which is going to be at the back of our lot




Caveat - I have not read thru this entire thread.

In BC Canada Electricity is created by “Hydro” Electric Dam & Residentially the low rate is 9 cents & high rate 14 cents per kWh CAD ,,, So your math will be different. The Province also owns the electricity & systems - Taxpayer Owned.

$30K to be “On Grid” 🤔

Once you pay for “The Grid” installation, it increases your “Property Value”. Other than possibly maintenance of the power lines assuming on your land only, your only cost is electrical consumption ,,, the monthly utility costs.

My Point is This; Human Brains have two sides ,,, Logical & Emotional. Often when faced with these choices in life humans choose an emotional choice ,,, there is nothing wrong with that, but we fool ourselves if we do not use our logical self to at least analyze our choice.

Appreciating Assets & Depreciating Assets; Your “Grid Tie In” could be an Appreciating Asset where as your “Solar Equipment” is most likely not. If it is, let’s buy a much & many batteries right now & sell them @ a profit in n 5 years.

Resale; What will somebody who will own your property want in the future 🤷‍♂️.

There are many many more “logical” items to ponder here.

I am Well Versed in such Economics & Decisions specially in relation to Construction. If you are not, I can help. To help I would need to see your economic analysis ,,, Your Math ,,, Your Logic ,,, Your Thought Process.

It is not “Either / Or” ,,, Solar / Grid ,,, Electricity / Propane ,,, Etc. You can have both. I have Natural Gas & Electricity ,,, Heat Pump & primarily use electricity ( it is a rigged game anyhow, but we have the option & like to cook with gas ).


IMG_0949.jpeg


Post in thread 'Why Bother!? $$$OffGrid$$$'
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/why-bother-offgrid.12484/post-138907



TLTR 🤷‍♂️; Why are you considering Solar vs Grid ?
 
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RV8R said:
$30K to be “On Grid” 🤔
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This is common in the USA and Canada for a rural property. There might not be poles, transformers, etc in the area. Just because you own property doesn't mean the utility is going to spend tens of thousands of dollars to connect you to the grid.

I disagree with your resale premise. Someone wanting to buy rural property (especially this rural) most likely wants to be off grid and would see this as a positive. I agree panels and batteries depreciate but utility costs will also continue to increase. At what rate nobody knows for certain but many US states are adding additional expenses to power generation that is not "green". In Pennsylvania my utility rates went from 9 cents per kwh to 17 cents per kwh in 1 year. The only thing I know for sure is that it will never go down.
 
SolarFlares said:
This is common in the USA and Canada for a rural property. There might not be poles, transformers, etc in the area. Just because you own property doesn't mean the utility is going to spend tens of thousands of dollars to connect you to the grid.

I disagree with your resale premise. Someone wanting to buy rural property (especially this rural) most likely wants to be off grid and would see this as a positive. I agree panels and batteries depreciate but utility costs will also continue to increase. At what rate nobody knows for certain but many US states are adding additional expenses to power generation that is not "green". In Pennsylvania my utility rates went from 9 cents per kwh to 17 cents per kwh in 1 year. The only thing I know for sure is that it will never go down.
Click to expand...

Opinions & disagreeing with opinions are a staple of learning & fleshing out ideas ,,, I welcome them.

Your hypothesis of “someone” wanting to be “off grid” & “especially this rural” is your opinion based on what ? There could be a disconnection on my part or a blind parameter I can’t see. I’m Canadian, so 10 acres, sloped mountains, & rural are 3 separate ideas & I am not familiar with all “American’s points of view”, so all I have is my life experiences & common sense. $30K for grid is cheap from what I am use to, so it really all depends.

Serviced land typically is worth at least raw land cost plus services / utility costs ( otherwise developers would not do it ). Maybe it is different “there”, but I would have to review the details. There are a ton of factors, but a small 10 acre parcel & a service coming in from the back @ a cost of $30K I think is worth analyzing ,,, If that expenditure is not bolstering up the property value in the future for a sale to the future property owner I would be very surprised.

But Hey ,,, I gots lots O Ideas ,,, some are even good 😜


On the flip side; Someone after solar credits “floated” a $70K cost to the home owner / builder. $70K towards a depreciating asset & borrowing that cash or not investing it ,,, different locations different taxes different governments & other evil doers out there ,,, Different Results

I am a basic investor ,,, I like to get a return on my investments ,,, the more return the happier I am.

I invest in Solar ,,, when it pencils for me ,,, It can be the economical answer ,,, but that depends on the situation.
 
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