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First 24v Build with BMS

KnewB

New Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2021
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51
Hi,

I'm building my first 24v lifepo4 battery using 8 30ah cells and a Daly 8s 24v 50a BMS. This is for a Trolling motor with a max draw of 20amps.

I have watched some videos and looked around but wasn't able to find info/videos with using a BMS. So I am unclear of the proper way of balancing or if I even have to before building the battery and adding BMS. some videos say bottom balance some say top balance so can some please clear this up for me?

I do have a balance charger, so can I just set these cells up in series w/o the BMS , connect the balance leads and main -/+ then let the charger do its thing?

tia!
 
I have watched some videos and looked around but wasn't able to find info/videos with using a BMS.
Read from start to finish please.

Then if you have any questions just holler.
 
I would recommend watching some videos as Joey suggests. As Joey mentioned, your trolling motor has a max draw of 20 amps. You may wish to review the specifications of your proposed battery pack versus the specifications of your trolling motor. The batteries and BMS should be matched to your application and should be designed appropriately for the environment you will be using it in. 30ah is a measure of capacity of a battery at a rate of discharge in 1 hour. Thus a 30 amp/hr battery means that said battery "should" provide 30A for 1 hour (1C). If your trolling motor draws 20 amps and you were to use it at full power (20 amps) for your battery pack, you would get less than 1.5 hours of discharge (less as these ratings are given ideal conditions etc.). http://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_battery_specifications.pdf
 
I would recommend watching some videos as Joey suggests. As Joey mentioned, your trolling motor has a max draw of 20 amps. You may wish to review the specifications of your proposed battery pack versus the specifications of your trolling motor. The batteries and BMS should be matched to your application and should be designed appropriately for the environment you will be using it in. 30ah is a measure of capacity of a battery at a rate of discharge in 1 hour. Thus a 30 amp/hr battery means that said battery "should" provide 30A for 1 hour (1C). If your trolling motor draws 20 amps and you were to use it at full power (20 amps) for your battery pack, you would get less than 1.5 hours of discharge (less as these ratings are given ideal conditions etc.). http://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_battery_specifications.pdf
thats max draw which we never use. the motor draws about 2/3amps at trolling speed and 6/8amps at running speed(to and from fishing grounds). its a brushless motor
 
Very cool. I'm sure you will be happy with that. I bought a Aquos Black Haswing 110lb thrust for my drift boat. It is also brushless but much less efficient at 24volts then the one you purchased which is why I asked. Rated for 1200 watts 50amp max.


my motor is half the size at 60lb thrust and its on a kayak not a boat so i get much better performance. haswing makes great products tho, i have the w20 which is a nice little reliable motor but doesn't have the trust i prefer
 
Read from start to finish please.

Then if you have any questions just holler.
great write up thank you! but not sure if that answered my question regarding why i cant just use a balance charger? what's the different between top balancing them in parallel at 3.6v and top balancing them at 28.8v in series with a balance charger?
 
what's the different between top balancing them in parallel at 3.6v and top balancing them at 28.8v in series with a balance charger?
You can't top balance at 28.8 volts.
Each cell gets charged individually even if they appear to be charged together.
 
great write up thank you! but not sure if that answered my question regarding why i cant just use a balance charger? what's the different between top balancing them in parallel at 3.6v and top balancing them at 28.8v in series with a balance charger?
Seems like you are determined to use your balance charger.
Which is fine.
The concept of top balancing still the same.

Here is something else I wrote on the subject.

Top balancing should be renamed to initial cell charging.

q: What is top balancing?
a: {
Top balancing is really just charging each cell until it is full.
We do this to ensure the capacity of the battery is equal to that of the weakest cell.
Which is as good as it gets.
}

q: What is bottom balancing?
a: {
Its not applicable to our application(low cost energy storage).
Google is your friend.
}

q: How should lifepo4 cells be prepared for use in a serial battery?
a: Charge each cell to precisely 3.625 volts as measured at the cell terminals.

q: What is a lifepo4 cell?
a: {
For the purpose of this writing a cell is an indiviual battery component.
Its minimum voltage is 2.5 volts.
Its nominal voltage is 3.2 volts.
Its maximum voltage is 3.65 volts.
NOTE: Always check the manufacturers documentation, there may be exceptions.
}

q: What is a lifepo4 battery?
a: {
For the purposes of this writing a lifepo4 battery is a collection of serially attached cells.
Typical configurations are 4s, 8s and 16s.
These configurations have nominal voltages of 12.8, 25.6 and 58.4 volts respectively.
The battery charge voltages are 14.6, 29.2 and 58.4 volts respectively.
NOTE: For the purposes of this writting a lifepo4 battery includes a bms.
}

q: What is the classic method for initial cell charging?
a: {
The classic method involves connecting cells in parralel and charging them as a large "logical" cell to 3.65 volts.
Parralel charging these huge cells with a typical bench charger takes a very long time.
Cells are usually delivered at aproximately 50% state of charge.
To parralel charge 16 cells for a 48 volt battery...
280 amp hours * .5 state of charge * 16 cells / 5 charge amps = 448 hours.
Cells have dramaticcally increased in capacity of the last few years but benchtop chargers have stayed relatively static.
}

q: What is your preferred method for accomplishing initial cell charging?
a: {
Assemble cells into a battery complete with bms.
Configure bms to disconnect when the first cell gets to 3.60 volts.
Charge at battery charge voltage until the bms disconnects the battery.
Wait overnight for the cells to settle.
With a bench charger set to ~5 amps and 3.65 volts charge each cell until it reaches 3.625 volts as measured at the cell terminals.
Be careful to stop the charge precisely at 3.625 volts.
NOTE: Don't leave this process un-attended for even a minute.
}

q: why is this your preferred method?
a: {
Like many on this forum, I'm using the big blue prismatic cells.
These cells are a great value but the terminals are usually tapped aluminum and prone to stripping.
I prefer to meticulously prepare all the battery hardware exactly once to minimize circuit resistance and wear&tear.
}

q: But wait, how do I charge individual cells that are already serial connected to form a battery?
a: {
Current flows from its origin to its polar opposite.
So just attach the charge leads via alligator clips to the cell's terminal posts such that the current goes through just that cell.
* a picture here would really be good.
}

q: Is it really that simple?
a: Yes.

q: Is there anything else I can do for bonus points?
a: Enable bms cell balancing but only during charge and only above float voltage.
 
You can't top balance at 28.8 volts.
Each cell gets charged individually even if they appear to be charged together.
correct me if I'm wrong but if I have the battery in series with balance leads from my balance charger hooked up and I'm charging via the main positive and negative, doesn't the main charge shut off when the first cell gets to 3.65v then the balance leads take over to fine tune the balancing? isn't that the point of a balance charger?
 
Last edited:
Seems like you are determined to use your balance charger.
Which is fine.
The concept of top balancing still the same.

Here is something else I wrote on the subject.

Top balancing should be renamed to initial cell charging.

q: What is top balancing?
a: {
Top balancing is really just charging each cell until it is full.
We do this to ensure the capacity of the battery is equal to that of the weakest cell.
Which is as good as it gets.
}

q: What is bottom balancing?
a: {
Its not applicable to our application(low cost energy storage).
Google is your friend.
}

q: How should lifepo4 cells be prepared for use in a serial battery?
a: Charge each cell to precisely 3.625 volts as measured at the cell terminals.

q: What is a lifepo4 cell?
a: {
For the purpose of this writing a cell is an indiviual battery component.
Its minimum voltage is 2.5 volts.
Its nominal voltage is 3.2 volts.
Its maximum voltage is 3.65 volts.
NOTE: Always check the manufacturers documentation, there may be exceptions.
}

q: What is a lifepo4 battery?
a: {
For the purposes of this writing a lifepo4 battery is a collection of serially attached cells.
Typical configurations are 4s, 8s and 16s.
These configurations have nominal voltages of 12.8, 25.6 and 58.4 volts respectively.
The battery charge voltages are 14.6, 29.2 and 58.4 volts respectively.
NOTE: For the purposes of this writting a lifepo4 battery includes a bms.
}

q: What is the classic method for initial cell charging?
a: {
The classic method involves connecting cells in parralel and charging them as a large "logical" cell to 3.65 volts.
Parralel charging these huge cells with a typical bench charger takes a very long time.
Cells are usually delivered at aproximately 50% state of charge.
To parralel charge 16 cells for a 48 volt battery...
280 amp hours * .5 state of charge * 16 cells / 5 charge amps = 448 hours.
Cells have dramaticcally increased in capacity of the last few years but benchtop chargers have stayed relatively static.
}

q: What is your preferred method for accomplishing initial cell charging?
a: {
Assemble cells into a battery complete with bms.
Configure bms to disconnect when the first cell gets to 3.60 volts.
Charge at battery charge voltage until the bms disconnects the battery.
Wait overnight for the cells to settle.
With a bench charger set to ~5 amps and 3.65 volts charge each cell until it reaches 3.625 volts as measured at the cell terminals.
Be careful to stop the charge precisely at 3.625 volts.
NOTE: Don't leave this process un-attended for even a minute.
}

q: why is this your preferred method?
a: {
Like many on this forum, I'm using the big blue prismatic cells.
These cells are a great value but the terminals are usually tapped aluminum and prone to stripping.
I prefer to meticulously prepare all the battery hardware exactly once to minimize circuit resistance and wear&tear.
}

q: But wait, how do I charge individual cells that are already serial connected to form a battery?
a: {
Current flows from its origin to its polar opposite.
So just attach the charge leads via alligator clips to the cell's terminal posts such that the current goes through just that cell.
* a picture here would really be good.
}

q: Is it really that simple?
a: Yes.

q: Is there anything else I can do for bonus points?
a: Enable bms cell balancing but only during charge and only above float voltage.
lol sorry am i not dead set on using a balance charger but just trying to understand why i can't, i don't like to know what to do more why i need to do it.

another good bit of info there thanks!
 
lol sorry am i not dead set on using a balance charger but just trying to understand why i can't, i don't like to know what to do more why i need to do it.

another good bit of info there thanks!
You can use it.
 
lol sorry am i not dead set on using a balance charger but just trying to understand why i can't, i don't like to know what to do more why i need to do it.

another good bit of info there thanks!
The balance charger would be much faster. I don't see a problem. Considering balance chargers are used to safely charge NMC which can comparatively easily blow up.
 
correct me if i'm wrong but if i have the battery in series with balance leads from my balance charger hooked up. and I'm charging via the main positive and negative, doesn't the main charge shuts off at the top voltage then the balance leads take over to fine tune the balancing? isn't that the point of a balance charger?
If it does charge via main positive and main negative then it will charge at system voltage.
for 8s lifepo4 that is up to 29.2VDC.
 
I balance charge my 4s LiFePO4 projects with iCharger X8 for first charge. What is annoying is that the balance leads for many BMS is smaller, if I recall correctly those use JST-PH, than the JST-XH connector on balance chargers. You either have to add a separate JST-XH connector addition to BMS connector or do what I did below and make a JST-PH female to JST-XH male wire to use with balance charger.
 

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