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I wonder what kind of batteries are used in this bus

Thats what saving the planet with EVs looks like.
Remember when all the talk was about powering buses with flywheels? Like they weighed several tons and spun at like 400,000 rpm? Figures may be way off but I recall it was an enormous amount of energy but they believed could be harnessed safely. If that let loose its over buddy.
 
Batvette said:
Thats what saving the planet with EVs looks like.
Remember when all the talk was about powering buses with flywheels? Like they weighed several tons and spun at like 400,000 rpm? Figures may be way off but I recall it was an enormous amount of energy but they believed could be harnessed safely. If that let loose its over buddy.
Click to expand...

Yeah, because fires never happen with petroleum vehicles...
www.mercurynews.com

What’s causing all these bus fires? Roadshow

Know the rules on stopping for school buses. The fines are steep if you violate them.
www.mercurynews.com www.mercurynews.com
An intelligent person realizes that anytime you store a massive amount of energy in a small space, it's uncontrolled release can be catastrophic, and regardless of the current tech being used, it can happen. That's what intelligent people think anyhow.. the idiots of this world come up with all kinds of stupid remarks.

1653412197063.png
 
MurphyGuy said:
Yeah, because fires never happen with petroleum vehicles...
www.mercurynews.com

What’s causing all these bus fires? Roadshow

Know the rules on stopping for school buses. The fines are steep if you violate them.
www.mercurynews.com www.mercurynews.com
An intelligent person realizes that anytime you store a massive amount of energy in a small space, it's uncontrolled release can be catastrophic, and regardless of the current tech being used, it can happen. That's what intelligent people think anyhow.. the idiots of this world come up with all kinds of stupid remarks.

View attachment 95645
Click to expand...
When electric buses proliferate like diesel powered buses we can someday compare the fire rates. I think we are gonna find that without meticulous maintenance EV fires will become common to the point of rampant. Simply because of what happens when high current connections get loose as they will in mobile applications. I digress as that is my speculation but believe it is inevitable. Until then I stand by my comment, clarifying it as thats what an EV fire looks like.
Furthermore if youd like to compare the two, there is indeed quite a difference.
A petroleum based fire can be extinguished. If a lithium battery bank goes up in flames in an EV bus, run like hell. There isnt a damn thing anyone can do about it until the power is drained and or the thing burns to the ground. Then lets talk about the toxicity of the combustibles. AFAIK diesel fuel isnt particularly toxic to burn. In fact its designed to burn.

Can we say the same of lithium power banks? Look at that cloud rising above Paris. Any hazards in breathing that?

Your final comments in that long "trolling" thread lead me to believe you are a more reasonable person than I previously assumed. I think we can at least agree this will be uncharted territory.
 
Batvette said:
When electric buses proliferate like diesel powered buses we can someday compare the fire rates. I think we are gonna find that without meticulous maintenance EV fires will become common to the point of rampant. Simply because of what happens when high current connections get loose as they will in mobile applications. I digress as that is my speculation but believe it is inevitable. Until then I stand by my comment, clarifying it as thats what an EV fire looks like.
Furthermore if youd like to compare the two, there is indeed quite a difference.
A petroleum based fire can be extinguished. If a lithium battery bank goes up in flames in an EV bus, run like hell. There isnt a damn thing anyone can do about it until the power is drained and or the thing burns to the ground. Then lets talk about the toxicity of the combustibles. AFAIK diesel fuel isnt particularly toxic to burn. In fact its designed to burn.

Can we say the same of lithium power banks? Look at that cloud rising above Paris. Any hazards in breathing that?

Your final comments in that long "trolling" thread lead me to believe you are a more reasonable person than I previously assumed. I think we can at least agree this will be uncharted territory.
Click to expand...
In a vehicle fire, from an environmental perspective, the toxicity of the fuel is the absolute least of any worries... The rest of the vehicle is made of plastics, rubbers, and various other materials like coatings and paints, and with the exception of the steel, it all burns. .
..
Petroleum fueled vehicles burn all the time. Buses, cars, trucks, tractors, lawnmowers, motorcycles, boats, etc. Put enough energy in a single location and eventually, the laws of statistical probability will give you a show if you do it often enough.
.
As electric vehicles become more commonplace and the tech matures, we will see fewer fires, not more of them. Solid state batteries are about to make their way into the market, and they do not have the same problems.
.
All over the internet, I see people comparing 100 year old petroleum technology to the new electric stuff, and their ignorance is put on full display when they compare something old to something new.
 
MurphyGuy said:
In a vehicle fire, from an environmental perspective, the toxicity of the fuel is the absolute least of any worries... The rest of the vehicle is made of plastics, rubbers, and various other materials like coatings and paints, and with the exception of the steel, it all burns. .
..
Petroleum fueled vehicles burn all the time. Buses, cars, trucks, tractors, lawnmowers, motorcycles, boats, etc. Put enough energy in a single location and eventually, the laws of statistical probability will give you a show if you do it often enough.
.
As electric vehicles become more commonplace and the tech matures, we will see fewer fires, not more of them. Solid state batteries are about to make their way into the market, and they do not have the same problems.
.
All over the internet, I see people comparing 100 year old petroleum technology to the new electric stuff, and their ignorance is put on full display when they compare something old to something new.
Click to expand...
The event this thread is about doesnt tend to support such speculation.
Whats with this "100 year old petroleum technology" stuff? You got cars from 1922 driving around your city? That must suck!!!!
The rest of us are driving cars that are FAR more advanced than those. They should take all these mandates for EVs and instead apply them to make the most efficient gasoline engines they can.
 
Batvette said:
The event this thread is about doesnt tend to support such speculation.
Whats with this "100 year old petroleum technology" stuff? You got cars from 1922 driving around your city? That must suck!!!!
The rest of us are driving cars that are FAR more advanced than those. They should take all these mandates for EVs and instead apply them to make the most efficient gasoline engines they can.
Click to expand...

You are comparing a mature technology to a new technology and expecting the new technology to be as good as the mature technology.

The fact that I had to point that out to you is a bit disturbing.

Petroleum fuels, regardless of how efficient the cars are, pull carbon from deep in the ground and pump it into our atmosphere. Petroleum has to go.
 
La dee da, la dee da, sleepwalking into the abyss.

“The biggest obstacle is the infrastructure or lack thereof. To charge 3,000 to 10,000 pounds of batteries in a short time is challenging. No one is talking about the cost, but electricity will need to be generated somehow to be able to service these new chargers. I have attended two significant conferences this year on this topic. None of my questions was answered! Everyone is assuming or pushing for that the electricity providers will work some kind of deal with the national or local governments. The thought is that the government is in charge of providing the infrastructure. Assuming that electricity will remain low on price is not a good assumption.”
www.autoweek.com

Yes, Electric Big Rigs Are Coming—and We Drive Four of Them

From semis to box trucks, step vans to school buses, Freightliner has a test fleet of 40 rigs, with availability in 2022.
www.autoweek.com www.autoweek.com
 
MurphyGuy said:
You are comparing a mature technology to a new technology and expecting the new technology to be as good as the mature technology.

The fact that I had to point that out to you is a bit disturbing.

Petroleum fuels, regardless of how efficient the cars are, pull carbon from deep in the ground and pump it into our atmosphere. Petroleum has to go.
Click to expand...
A mature technology? Are you saying internal combustion technology is as advanced as it will get? And we CAN make comparisons here. The first electric car appeared in 1890.

en.m.wikipedia.org

History of the electric vehicle - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

That comment is silly! Theyve had just as long to get it right.
 
Batvette said:
La dee da, la dee da, sleepwalking into the abyss.

“The biggest obstacle is the infrastructure or lack thereof. To charge 3,000 to 10,000 pounds of batteries in a short time is challenging. No one is talking about the cost, but electricity will need to be generated somehow to be able to service these new chargers. I have attended two significant conferences this year on this topic. None of my questions was answered! Everyone is assuming or pushing for that the electricity providers will work some kind of deal with the national or local governments. The thought is that the government is in charge of providing the infrastructure. Assuming that electricity will remain low on price is not a good assumption.”
www.autoweek.com

Yes, Electric Big Rigs Are Coming—and We Drive Four of Them

From semis to box trucks, step vans to school buses, Freightliner has a test fleet of 40 rigs, with availability in 2022.
www.autoweek.com www.autoweek.com
Click to expand...

Pass the kool-aid please. ? It's the only way to get me to believe the government will solve our problems.
 
Batvette said:
A mature technology? Are you saying internal combustion technology is as advanced as it will get? And we CAN make comparisons here. The first electric car appeared in 1890.

en.m.wikipedia.org

History of the electric vehicle - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

That comment is silly! Theyve had just as long to get it right.
Click to expand...

Internal combustion tech is pretty close to being as advanced as it will get.. there are some more gains to be made, but not many.

The laws of thermodynamics are a real b!tch, and in the absence of some super meta-material, the conventional liquid fueled engine will not make many gains in the future.

There might be a better way to burn dead dinosaurs, but it won't be a conventional ICE, and the improved performance will not be any kind of disruptive change.
..

Batteries however, that's another story. Your 200 to 250 mile EV range will most likely be pushing 1000 to 2000 miles within a decade or two. In fact, within 30 years, EV's will most likely out perform all ICE technologies.
 
MurphyGuy said:
Internal combustion tech is pretty close to being as advanced as it will get.. there are some more gains to be made, but not many.

The laws of thermodynamics are a real b!tch, and in the absence of some super meta-material, the conventional liquid fueled engine will not make many gains in the future.

There might be a better way to burn dead dinosaurs, but it won't be a conventional ICE, and the improved performance will not be any kind of disruptive change.
..

Batteries however, that's another story. Your 200 to 250 mile EV range will most likely be pushing 1000 to 2000 miles within a decade or two. In fact, within 30 years, EV's will most likely out perform all ICE technologies.
Click to expand...
In opposition to your sheer speculation about future EV performance we also have recent advancements in ICE vehicles in just the last few decades. Cars today are more powerful today and get much better mileage, and are more reliable than they were in the 80s and 90s. Are you pretending they are not? Would you like proof?
All the big three automakers have 600+ horsepower sports cars you can just walk in and buy. In the late 80s they had half that power. The MPG is the same. Hybrid cars get far better mileage than 80s economy cars and have more safety and better features. The weight that goes into that could be saved and go to better economy if that were prioritized.
Put a 90s geo metro next to a new prius. They get the same mpg but the metro is a deathtrap with crankup windows and a 3cyl engine that cant do over 50mph up hill. They could design an economy car that got 75 mpg with metro creature comforts if the market desired. Thats a fact and geo metro clubs have contests for best mpg currently the record stands above 100mpg.


To say ICE technology has already peaked is just wrong. It will appear that way shortly as the govt mandates EVs and mfrs abandon ICE.

No one is saying EVs will not have evolutionary improvements. The issue is we are not even close to being prepared in charging capabilities for the govts accelerated implementation, and that for a significant part of the population they will never be workable.

Thats whats really pissing me off, that affluent liberals arent going to be affected by this and dont seem to care about those who will. Some neighborhoods in my city have block after block of apartment dwellers who have to fight to find a parking spot by 6 pm. There are dozens of cars parked on each side of every street. How do you propose they charge their vehicles every night? Nobody is going to fund 20 chargers on every block and the carbon cost in doing so would be insane. Let alone generating the power.
Its shocking that your faith in fantasy solutions has no concern for the fate of those worst affected when this all goes to hell.
The fact that liberals I know dont care that gas prices have doubled in my city shows they are just dangerous..
 
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WYtreasure said:
Pass the kool-aid please. ? It's the only way to get me to believe the government will solve our problems.
Click to expand...
Without going full on conspiracy theory with planned control of populations, its a given that officials in charge dont mind creating problems to give themselves a task to accomplish as well as make us feel we cant live without their expertise. Then theres the idea that people without significant struggles before them might channel their energies more efficiently into better causes- like ousting the powers that be and forging equality between socioeconomic classes. Solving our problems might put them out of work.
I think humans will always face some form of conspiracies of ideology. That is those who they oppose in numbers, dont have to have secret meetings or plans as they take action, they just do what youd expect people with a certain agenda to do.
Like government officials not bucking the status quo, or promising to end waste fraud and abuse while doing it themselves and covering up that of their peers.
Then again its not absurd to imagine all your local leaders having a meeting and coming up with ways to screw us and line their pockets.
 
Batvette said:
In opposition to your sheer speculation about future EV performance we also have recent advancements in ICE vehicles in just the last few decades. Cars today are more powerful today and get much better mileage, and are more reliable than they were in the 80s and 90s. Are you pretending they are not? Would you like proof?
All the big three automakers have 600+ horsepower sports cars you can just walk in and buy. In the late 80s they had half that power. The MPG is the same. Hybrid cars get far better mileage than 80s economy cars and have more safety and better features. The weight that goes into that could be saved and go to better economy if that were prioritized.
Put a 90s geo metro next to a new prius. They get the same mpg but the metro is a deathtrap with crankup windows and a 3cyl engine that cant do over 50mph up hill. They could design an economy car that got 75 mpg with metro creature comforts if the market desired. Thats a fact and geo metro clubs have contests for best mpg currently the record stands above 100mpg.


To say ICE technology has already peaked is just wrong. It will appear that way shortly as the govt mandates EVs and mfrs abandon ICE.

No one is saying EVs will not have evolutionary improvements. The issue is we are not even close to being prepared in charging capabilities for the govts accelerated implementation, and that for a significant part of the population they will never be workable.

Thats whats really pissing me off, that affluent liberals arent going to be affected by this and dont seem to care about those who will. Some neighborhoods in my city have block after block of apartment dwellers who have to fight to find a parking spot by 6 pm. There are dozens of cars parked on each side of every street. How do you propose they charge their vehicles every night? Nobody is going to fund 20 chargers on every block and the carbon cost in doing so would be insane. Let alone generating the power.
Its shocking that your faith in fantasy solutions has no concern for the fate of those worst affected when this all goes to hell.
The fact that liberals I know dont care that gas prices have doubled in my city shows they are just dangerous..
Click to expand...

The power that is currently being provided by car manufactures was being attained by enthusiasts 20+ years ago. The only difference is that manufactures saw what we were doing and how durable they were and started providing that directly to consumers. In `98 I took a 150hp neon and made a 600 hp neon with pistons, rods, 45lbs of boost and supporting mods for under $8,000. When manufactures watch a Viper see nothing but tail lights of a neon down the drag strip, they are forced to take notice. I did that that over and over again with Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi etc. ICE doesnt have much more room in it.
 
noenegdod said:
The power that is currently being provided by car manufactures was being attained by enthusiasts 20+ years ago. The only difference is that manufactures saw what we were doing and how durable they were and started providing that directly to consumers. In `98 I took a 150hp neon and made a 600 hp neon with pistons, rods, 45lbs of boost and supporting mods for under $8,000. When manufactures watch a Viper see nothing but tail lights of a neon down the drag strip, they are forced to take notice. I did that that over and over again with Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi etc. ICE doesnt have much more room in it.
Click to expand...
Thats a splendid story and we are all proud of your engineering prowess. How is that relevant toward billion dollar corporations if they focused their engineering resources on maximum efficiency vehicles?
As a side note, where is this car today? When you sold it, did it pass an emissions test, and did you offer the buyer an industry standard warranty like 3 yrs and 36,000 miles?
Just because you built a one off that surely required much attention to keep running and likely self destructed under normal operation, does not mean manufacturers were readily capable of marketing such a vehicle for reliable use to the public. So you had a 600hp hotrod 20 years ago. Heres a cookie. I said walk into a showroom and buy one from a major manufacturer. You couldnt 20 years ago, you can now. Perhaps in 20 more years they will be 1000hp, oh wait thats not gonna happen because investment in ICE technology has ceased due to government mandates.
Improvements in ICE vehicles continued right up until the Biden administration, its pure fantasy to assert it would not continue. Why didnt cars reach their peak 10 or 20 years ago? (your little ****box being irrelevant to mass production) Its just sheer coincidence that we can chart power and efficiency improvements until 2021, in all the manufacturers lineups? But youre claiming it all peaked 20 years ago. Whats your motivation for jumping into a discussion with such an intellectually dishonest argument? Do you have a solution for the charging infrastructure issues that EV proponents pretend dont exist? Can you show me where the carbon costs have ever been calculated in creating this infrastructure? Why would leftists pretend they want to save the earth while never wanting to analyze this factor in the climate change debate? Are they so stupid they dont realize that massive industrialization is involved... Precisely what they allege is causing climate change?
BTW that was a pretty dumb build. Theres a few 500 hp fwd chrysler econoboxes on youtube, theyre completely undrivable at full throttle. And theres a 7 second viper, so there.
 
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We wont even get into the most obvious of discussions... Have top fuel drag times stood still for several decades.... Formula 1 lap speeds...every motorsport field making advances with only small reversals for the sake of safety to slow them down or even competition.
The Indy 500 pole was the fastest ever despite numerous restrictions to slow the cars down since the previous record 25 years ago.
 
Batvette said:
In opposition to your sheer speculation about future EV performance we also have recent advancements in ICE vehicles in just the last few decades. Cars today are more powerful today and get much better mileage, and are more reliable than they were in the 80s and 90s. Are you pretending they are not? Would you like proof?
Click to expand...
Yes, send proof.
Fuel economy has improved, but not by much. It can be a tricky subject because the data is so easy to manipulate. We must compare apples to apples and you don't get that with "overall averages". Compare passenger trucks from 1995 to 2022 and passenger cars from the same period.
When the gov told the auto makers they have to improve average economy, all they did was offer more models of small cars that no one purchased.
As far as reliability? ROFLMAO.. My 1993 GMC never broke down.. except for the alternator that had to be swapped out every 50,000 miles using a 5/8 wrench and 10 minutes of my time, the damn truck never broke down once. My newer vehicle has broken down so many times I can't even remember them all. Same with two friends, both of their 2015 to 2020 vehicles have spent as much time in the shop as they have in their garages.
Reliability improved? My ass.. The only reliable vehicles these days are Toyota and a few other Jap brands. I've been a GMC guy all my life, that has now ended.


Batvette said:
All the big three automakers have 600+ horsepower sports cars you can just walk in and buy.
Click to expand...
And the general population is so utterly stupid they want that 600+ horsepower. My truck has 300 and its more than I need, even when hauling 10,000 lbs in a trailer. People are stupid.
Batvette said:
In the late 80s they had half that power. The MPG is the same. Hybrid cars get far better mileage than 80s economy cars and have more safety and better features. The weight that goes into that could be saved and go to better economy if that were prioritized.
Click to expand...
You're taking about 50 years difference! Of course modern vehicles are better..
Batvette said:
Put a 90s geo metro next to a new prius. They get the same mpg but the metro is a deathtrap with crankup windows and a 3cyl engine that cant do over 50mph up hill. They could design an economy car that got 75 mpg with metro creature comforts if the market desired. Thats a fact and geo metro clubs have contests for best mpg currently the record stands above 100mpg.


To say ICE technology has already peaked is just wrong. It will appear that way shortly as the govt mandates EVs and mfrs abandon ICE.
Click to expand...
You do know you're talking to a retired engineer who spent his career in the automotive industry right? There will be future improvements to the ICE, but they won't be anything that will shake your boots.. not even enough for a news article. In fact, most of the new automobile improvements in fuel economy aren't even related to the internal combustion engine.. they're made via materials science and reducing the weight of the vehicle.
Batvette said:
No one is saying EVs will not have evolutionary improvements. The issue is we are not even close to being prepared in charging capabilities for the govts accelerated implementation, and that for a significant part of the population they will never be workable.
Click to expand...
That's part of growth.. If we were prepared now, it would be a waste of money. You don't upgrade a 5000 amp service to 10,000 amps until you need more than 5000 amps. If they did upgrade the grid right now, people would be asking why the cost of power is going up when they don't need to upgrade right now.

Batvette said:
Thats whats really pissing me off, that affluent liberals arent going to be affected by this and dont seem to care about those who will.
Click to expand...
The problem with most conservatives is that the "god and religion" has made them scientifically illiterate.. and they still live by the old "What I don't know won't hurt me" mantra. LOL. We can't keep pumping carbon and other pollutants into the air. And the fact is, anyone who doesn't comprehend the reasoning behind that is an idiot. Even if it does harm our economy, we need to ditch burning petroleum because the other option is to destroy our environment, which would harm the economy as well. The problem is, there's a huge propaganda campaign funded by the oil companies, and conservatives don't understand even basic science. Go ahead, ask 10 random educated conservatives why C02 is a greenhouse gas.. what the functional mechanism is that causes CO2 to warm the planet.. I'll bet my barn you won't get a single correct answer that is even close.. What you will get is a bunch of nonsensical babbling about politics, and that's because they have no clue.
Conservatives, those who actually get an education beyond grade school, tend to be lawyers, accountants, and other non-scientific jobs.. Its almost unheard of for them to enter anything related to a hard science.

I'm mostly conservative.. about 70% with 30% liberal mixed in.. But being an engineer and a science geek, when it comes to matters of.. well.. matter.. I tend to side with the science, which the liberals tend to side with.
I've never actually understood that.. why would a liberal who doesn't understand science (most don't), side with the science anymore than a conservative who doesn't understand science? It doesn't make sense.

Whatever.. I don't care what liberal or conservative policies tend to be, if the science is definitive, then I'm on the side of the science.



Batvette said:
Some neighborhoods in my city have block after block of apartment dwellers who have to fight to find a parking spot by 6 pm. There are dozens of cars parked on each side of every street. How do you propose they charge their vehicles every night? Nobody is going to fund 20 chargers on every block and the carbon cost in doing so would be insane. Let alone generating the power.
Its shocking that your faith in fantasy solutions has no concern for the fate of those worst affected when this all goes to hell.
The fact that liberals I know dont care that gas prices have doubled in my city shows they are just dangerous..
Click to expand...
So we should allow our environment to be destroyed because it will make life inconvenient for apartment dwellers? Maybe we can solve the issue with public transportation? This way, these folks who live in stacked up apartments all crowded together sharing buildings, can also share transportation! Problem solved.
If you choose the city life were people are crammed in like sardines in a can, then you must also accept the limitations of that life. While you may benefit from having a coffee shop right outside your front door, and a fun museum two blocks away, you will also need to give up some stuff to enjoy that life style.
.
In an argument over our environment vs the lifestyle of people, I'm going to side with the environment every time.
.
Our society can't keep pumping out babies like Catholic rabbits and expect to keep all the luxuries and liberties we have. Pick one or the other.
 
MurphyGuy said:
Yes, send proof.
Fuel economy has improved, but not by much. It can be a tricky subject because the data is so easy to manipulate. We must compare apples to apples and you don't get that with "overall averages". Compare passenger trucks from 1995 to 2022 and passenger cars from the same period.
When the gov told the auto makers they have to improve average economy, all they did was offer more models of small cars that no one purchased.
As far as reliability? ROFLMAO.. My 1993 GMC never broke down.. except for the alternator that had to be swapped out every 50,000 miles using a 5/8 wrench and 10 minutes of my time, the damn truck never broke down once. My newer vehicle has broken down so many times I can't even remember them all. Same with two friends, both of their 2015 to 2020 vehicles have spent as much time in the shop as they have in their garages.
Reliability improved? My ass.. The only reliable vehicles these days are Toyota and a few other Jap brands. I've been a GMC guy all my life, that has now ended.



And the general population is so utterly stupid they want that 600+ horsepower. My truck has 300 and its more than I need, even when hauling 10,000 lbs in a trailer. People are stupid.

You're taking about 50 years difference! Of course modern vehicles are better..

You do know you're talking to a retired engineer who spent his career in the automotive industry right? There will be future improvements to the ICE, but they won't be anything that will shake your boots.. not even enough for a news article. In fact, most of the new automobile improvements in fuel economy aren't even related to the internal combustion engine.. they're made via materials science and reducing the weight of the vehicle.

That's part of growth.. If we were prepared now, it would be a waste of money. You don't upgrade a 5000 amp service to 10,000 amps until you need more than 5000 amps. If they did upgrade the grid right now, people would be asking why the cost of power is going up when they don't need to upgrade right now.


The problem with most conservatives is that the "god and religion" has made them scientifically illiterate.. and they still live by the old "What I don't know won't hurt me" mantra. LOL. We can't keep pumping carbon and other pollutants into the air. And the fact is, anyone who doesn't comprehend the reasoning behind that is an idiot. Even if it does harm our economy, we need to ditch burning petroleum because the other option is to destroy our environment, which would harm the economy as well. The problem is, there's a huge propaganda campaign funded by the oil companies, and conservatives don't understand even basic science. Go ahead, ask 10 random educated conservatives why C02 is a greenhouse gas.. what the functional mechanism is that causes CO2 to warm the planet.. I'll bet my barn you won't get a single correct answer that is even close.. What you will get is a bunch of nonsensical babbling about politics, and that's because they have no clue.
Conservatives, those who actually get an education beyond grade school, tend to be lawyers, accountants, and other non-scientific jobs.. Its almost unheard of for them to enter anything related to a hard science.

I'm mostly conservative.. about 70% with 30% liberal mixed in.. But being an engineer and a science geek, when it comes to matters of.. well.. matter.. I tend to side with the science, which the liberals tend to side with.
I've never actually understood that.. why would a liberal who doesn't understand science (most don't), side with the science anymore than a conservative who doesn't understand science? It doesn't make sense.

Whatever.. I don't care what liberal or conservative policies tend to be, if the science is definitive, then I'm on the side of the science.




So we should allow our environment to be destroyed because it will make life inconvenient for apartment dwellers? Maybe we can solve the issue with public transportation? This way, these folks who live in stacked up apartments all crowded together sharing buildings, can also share transportation! Problem solved.
If you choose the city life were people are crammed in like sardines in a can, then you must also accept the limitations of that life. While you may benefit from having a coffee shop right outside your front door, and a fun museum two blocks away, you will also need to give up some stuff to enjoy that life style.
.
In an argument over our environment vs the lifestyle of people, I'm going to side with the environment every time.
.
Our society can't keep pumping out babies like Catholic rabbits and expect to keep all the luxuries and liberties we have. Pick one or the other.
Click to expand...
Why would you claim switching to EVs will help fight climate change when the carbon cost of the charging infrastructure has never been calculated? Think its nothing? Biden promised 10 million jobs in his green agenda. What do you think they will be doing?
Any claims that EVs will be better for climate change are false until proponents make an honest analysis of the carbon cost of transforming the infrastructure.

I dont know why you wasted your reply with talk of conservatives, god, denying science, etc. No relevence to any arguments of mine it amounts to playing don quioxte to caricatures of the opposition in your imagination. Your last remark about pumping out babies I agree with. Latin America has been doing this for decades. Why is Biden letting them in so they can do it here too?
 
Batvette said:
Why would you claim switching to EVs will help fight climate change when the carbon cost of the charging infrastructure has never been calculated? Think its nothing? Biden promised 10 million jobs in his green agenda. What do you think they will be doing?
Any claims that EVs will be better for climate change are false until proponents make an honest analysis of the carbon cost of transforming the infrastructure.
Click to expand...
Where do you come up with this nonsense? Carbon cost for the charging infrastructure? What's the carbon cost for the petroleum distribution infrastructure?
Do you have some book "trick questions to argue about climate change for dummies"? The carbon cost of the charging infrastructure? ROFLMAO. Seriously, where did you come up with that? I know you didn't get it on your own, you were reading some oil propaganda website or other anti-earth conservative crap... I know that because the very question is just ridiculously silly.
It's like asking someone who owns some backyard chickens if they've calculated the cost to the biodiversity of the tick population...

.
Here's an answer for you to the ridiculous question you were given...
The carbon cost for EV's only needs to be less than it is for petroleum vehicles.
.
Renewable energy can provide most of our daytime energy needs and some of our night time needs.. That's way better than using fossil fuels all day and night.
Batvette said:
I dont know why you wasted your reply with talk of conservatives, god, denying science, etc. No relevence to any arguments of mine it amounts to playing don quioxte to caricatures of the opposition in your imagination.
Click to expand...
The source of the arguments is relevant.. for reference, I give you "the carbon cost of the charging infrastructure"

Batvette said:
Your last remark about pumping out babies I agree with. Latin America has been doing this for decades. Why is Biden letting them in so they can do it here too?
Click to expand...
America has been doing the same.
 
Batvette said:
Thats a splendid story and we are all proud of your engineering prowess. How is that relevant toward billion dollar corporations if they focused their engineering resources on maximum efficiency vehicles?
As a side note, where is this car today? When you sold it, did it pass an emissions test, and did you offer the buyer an industry standard warranty like 3 yrs and 36,000 miles?
Just because you built a one off that surely required much attention to keep running and likely self destructed under normal operation, does not mean manufacturers were readily capable of marketing such a vehicle for reliable use to the public. So you had a 600hp hotrod 20 years ago. Heres a cookie. I said walk into a showroom and buy one from a major manufacturer. You couldnt 20 years ago, you can now. Perhaps in 20 more years they will be 1000hp, oh wait thats not gonna happen because investment in ICE technology has ceased due to government mandates.
Improvements in ICE vehicles continued right up until the Biden administration, its pure fantasy to assert it would not continue. Why didnt cars reach their peak 10 or 20 years ago? (your little ****box being irrelevant to mass production) Its just sheer coincidence that we can chart power and efficiency improvements until 2021, in all the manufacturers lineups? But youre claiming it all peaked 20 years ago. Whats your motivation for jumping into a discussion with such an intellectually dishonest argument? Do you have a solution for the charging infrastructure issues that EV proponents pretend dont exist? Can you show me where the carbon costs have ever been calculated in creating this infrastructure? Why would leftists pretend they want to save the earth while never wanting to analyze this factor in the climate change debate? Are they so stupid they dont realize that massive industrialization is involved... Precisely what they allege is causing climate change?
BTW that was a pretty dumb build. Theres a few 500 hp fwd chrysler econoboxes on youtube, theyre completely undrivable at full throttle. And theres a 7 second viper, so there.
Click to expand...
Jesus christ you are simple. You dont think anything through at all, do you.

The example of the cars I built was simply to show that the power gains made by manufactures was easily attainable by anyone with some interest. As for fuel efficiency, they all tend to see economy improvements. Power and efficiency improvements all happened at a cost to emissions, and durability of course. Implying that anyone in the enthusiast community could achieve power, efficiency, emissions and durability (all four of them) improvements over the oem is just another example of how weak minded and pathetic the argument is and how desperate you are in the attempt to be right.

Reciprocating ICE has reached or has very nearly reached its limits unless there is a substantial change in fuel or materials. The advancements being made today are minuscule and coming at huge cost. We are well into the "diminished returns" part of the curve.

Electronic fuel controls have done nothing to improve peak power or efficiency. What they did was make it possible to improve the power and efficiency throughout the RPM range. This is the general theme of all the advancements made over the past 50 years. Variable valve timing and intake runners were the same thing. They made engines "more powerful" not because the peak power was substantially improved but because they were able to provide an engine that was able to change its dynamic characteristics on the fly and then have its fuel delivery and spark events match those changes resulting in an engine that had far more "area under the curve". There has been very little advancement in terms of actually improving the achievable peak fuel efficiency and power of a reciprocating ICE.

There are a few hopefull ICE developments that may result in actual huge improvements in ICE efficiency but they are huge diversions from what is currently "the standard". Things like this:


Just to demonstrate how absolutely stupid the arguments you make are, first you say this:
Batvette said:
(your little ****box being irrelevant to mass production)
Click to expand...
Then you say this,

Batvette said:
And theres a 7 second viper, so there.
Click to expand...

"so there." Really!? did you ever mature past elementary school?

You say my **** box is not relevant to mass production and then some how a 7 second viper that is expected to fail on any pass is relevant to mass production?

Am I supposed to be surprised a V10 displacing over 8 liters and is supercharged with hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on it and built with aftermarket parts and control developed 20 years after I built a 2 liter inline 4 and spent less than $10k on it, would outperform it?


Batvette said:
I said walk into a showroom and buy one from a major manufacturer. You couldnt 20 years ago, you can now. Perhaps in 20 more years they will be 1000hp, oh wait thats not gonna happen because investment in ICE technology has ceased due to government mandates.
Click to expand...

Yet today you can walk into a showroom and buy a 1000+ HP electric car


Please try to think before you type and then maybe you'd be worth further engagement.

Edit:

Responding to the stupidity made me forget to include this;

The point of bringing up my car from 20 years ago was the fact that 20 years ago, you could pick up a car from the dealership, take it home and for a few thousand dollars, literally quadruple its power output form 150hp to 600hp. Today, ignoring emissions and durability, the aftermarket and enthusiasts are lucky if they can eek out 10 to at best 25%. Again, that is completely ignoring emissions and durability. We are done making any substantial improvements in reciprocating ICE.
 
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