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Bottom Balance 150ah lifepo4 12 v 4s cells

Guardianwill

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Feb 19, 2022
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I've searched and searched looking for what would be an easy answer but yet came up empty so if this has been asked or discussed before please accept my apology. I'll give an example and then ask my question. Trying to bottom balance my cells and 1 is bad so you return it and they send another one which is no where near the three you have initially. Infact they are all bottom balanced to 2.71 volts. My question is, what resistor do you use to quickly discharge the over charged cell to meet and greet the other 3? Links to the correct resistor would be awesome as well. Please explain so I know why it will work as well. Sorry again for a super simple question.

Thank you for your assistance.

Guardianwill
 
In the vast majority of cases, bottom balancing is a complete waste of time.
Thanks, but the reason I am asking is because I originally bought a battery pack -- 4s 12 150ah prismatic cells and when I went to charge the pack with the victron the last cell ran away sprinting to 3.65 leaving the three other cells behind at 3.31 volts. So I took the bad cell, what I thought was the bad cell and sent it back. Received the replacement but alas it also performed like the original cell it replaced. I thought okay, lets swap bms's and I have a 120 2v overkill solar bms that I use to train with and it did the same thing, at about the 3.31 volt mark the last cell which was just replaced within a minute sprinted to 3.67 and of course turned the bms off and interrupted charge cycle. I send pictures and videos and I guess the vendor has no more and if the cell now being returned and the one they are sending doesn't work I will get a full refund. I just want to give this the best chance I can get even if some steps seem to be mundane and senseless noone can say I did not give it a fair shot. After the bottom balance and letting it rest over night I will put the bms on in addition to an active 5 amp active balancer and try charging either starting with 30 amp or 15 amp to full charge then take it apart and slowly top balance if needed. I have a working 150ah set from them and bought this to connect so I can have a 300ah portable gen.
 
Bottom balance is not a step on the way to top balance.
Yes it would have been a whole lot easier to just pull down that runner cell with a resistor or 12volt headlamp. It may not be bad, it just may have had a higher SOC than the others, as apparently did it's replacement. Without a capacity test it is hard to say anything about either of those cells.
 
Yes it would have been a whole lot easier to just pull down that runner cell with a resistor or 12volt headlamp. It may not be bad, it just may have had a higher SOC than the others, as apparently did it's replacement. Without a capacity test it is hard to say anything about either of those cells.
What size Resistor would you get? I have one ceramic which works fine for demostrating inverter precharge but it seemed not even to dent the battery cell in voltage...
 
The resistor you have is probably fine. It will not bring down the voltage quickly you just need to wait longer.
But more to the point, and as others said. You do *not* want to bottom balance. A cell ran up too quickly because they need a TOP balance. That isn't caused by or an indication of a bad cell. It's an indication the cells are a different state of charge and need a top balance. Cells can be balanced on the top or the bottom, but not both. If you bottom balance, that means that they will all reach 2.5V at the same time when discharged but will NOT reach 3.65V at the same time. One or more will run up. If you want them to all reach 3.65V at the same time, you need a TOP balance.
Moreover, the overkill BMS will (slowly) try to top balance as it charges. So, if you bottom balance it, you will be fighting the BMS, and very soon have a battery that is just out of balance.
 
What size Resistor would you get? I have one ceramic which works fine for demostrating inverter precharge but it seemed not even to dent the battery cell in voltage
It depends on the resistance in Ohms. I have used 5 Ohm power resistors. Using Ohms law it will pull .64 Amps an hour. Lower resistance several in parallel or a long piece of wire could be faster but more sparks. Best to do it at the top to see the effect on voltage more readily.
 
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@Guardianwill have you verified that this is not a BMS sense lead problem?
I suggest you independently verify the voltage of the cell in question.
Actually independently verify all the cells.
 
@Guardianwill have you verified that this is not a BMS sense lead problem?
I suggest you independently verify the voltage of the cell in question.
Actually independently verify all the cells.
not directly, in a sense, but using 2 different bms's one with a circuit board for the balance leads and then overkill with their long cabling. Tested the overkill as I always do to make sure all wires were correct and thats about it.
 
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Well, I guess when it comes in I won't worry so much about them being bottom balanced. I'll still use the active 5 amp balancer coming in with the bms and use the victron to charge. After it stops I'll pull it apart, only have a 2 amp power supply but hopefully should only take a day or two to top balance each cell. Then, let it rest and top it off all together and then fingers crossed I'll drain her down with a space heater -- haha it doesn't take too long a few hours to go through 150 ah batt pack and then try to regularly charge her up. If all works out great I'll recycle one last time and call it good.

I envisioned this like a good horse race, they all start off at a straight starting point, the gates raise, everyones heart now starts to thump and they near the finish line, as like most races, many of the time they are quite equal and when they cross the finish line a camera takes a snap shot and see's whose nose crossed first. Thus, charging at an equal voltage would allow them to charge equally and hopefully, if all goes well its a really close race and they finish equally as well.
 
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The overkill solar manual has an excellent guide to top balancing. I suggest following it exactly, as a mistake here can ruin your cells. A 2 amp supply may take a VERY long time. 4x150Ah cells is 600Ah. Assuming they are ~60 charged, that is 360Ah. At 2amps, that is 180 hours to top balance, or 7.5 days. Since you have attempted to charge them already, maybe they are 90% charged and won't take too long.

Once balanced, I would NOT use the active balancer, but monitor the cells with the overkill BMS. See how far they go out of balance and that the passive balancing in the overkill can keep up. It should have no problem at all keeping the cells in balance. If they go out of balance, then that indicates an issue with one or more cells, and the active balancer will hide that fact. New cells should not need continuous balancing after an initial top balance. If they do, they are low quality or defective.
 
Thanks, but the reason I am asking is because I originally bought a battery pack -- 4s 12 150ah prismatic cells and when I went to charge the pack with the victron the last cell ran away sprinting to 3.65 leaving the three other cells behind at 3.31 volts.

It's very possible that was the best cell of the bunch. It just happened to be at the highest state of charge.

So I took the bad cell, what I thought was the bad cell and sent it back. Received the replacement but alas it also performed like the original cell it replaced. I thought okay, lets swap bms's and I have a 120 2v overkill solar bms that I use to train with and it did the same thing, at about the 3.31 volt mark the last cell which was just replaced within a minute sprinted to 3.67 and of course turned the bms off and interrupted charge cycle.

It's very possible that was the best cell of the bunch. It just happened to be at the highest state of charge.

I send pictures and videos and I guess the vendor has no more and if the cell now being returned and the one they are sending doesn't work I will get a full refund. I just want to give this the best chance I can get even if some steps seem to be mundane and senseless noone can say I did not give it a fair shot.

The correct course of action is to top balance.

You have chosen to maximize the potential for worst case and you are giving it the opposite of a fair shot.

After the bottom balance and letting it rest over night

Why? Completely pointless.

I will put the bms on in addition to an active 5 amp active balancer

5A balancers don't work at 5A. You'll be lucky to see ~1A the majority of the time.
 
I envisioned this like a good horse race, they all start off at a straight starting point.

To use your analogy, horses start with maximum energy and potential. They deplete themselves by the end of the race, thus you want all cells at 3.65V.

You don't start a race with an exhausted horse.

 
So what exactly is this pack of yours? A pre-built kind of kit, or totally diy?

Just a thought - because this behavior is repeating itself, is there any chance you have dirty busbar connections (usually leads to higher voltage *readings* which can throw things off from the real value. If you swap cells around, does the condition follow the cell, or stay in the same place?

Tossing this out because we can't see it from a distance. :)
 
So what exactly is this pack of yours? A pre-built kind of kit, or totally diy?

Just a thought - because this behavior is repeating itself, is there any chance you have dirty busbar connections (usually leads to higher voltage *readings* which can throw things off from the real value. If you swap cells around, does the condition follow the cell, or stay in the same place?

Tossing this out because we can't see it from a distance. :)
Its actually a 150 ah kit from batteryevo. Comes with the circuit board balance and bms as well as the 4 cells. I guess they are discontinuing this for lack of supply and lucky me got the end of the crop.P9300005.JPG
 
Cool - now I know where the idea of bottom balancing came in. I've done it many times - but not for what we are doing here.

History - in the old days of diy EV's, bottom balancing was very popular. The reason being is that you would be only a block from home when your LVD would kick in.

But instead of pushing the EV a block to home, you would turn off the LVD, and limp back to your garage. The idea was that by doing so at bottom balance, all of the cells would hit the bottom at the same time, and non would go into reverse-polarity and be instantly trashed if they were out of balance at the bottom.

Most bottom balancers took their cells down to 2.7v, waited a day for the voltage to recover, discharge again and wait another day, discharge again and wait, and then proclaim that they were truly bottom balanced. But you are taking a big risk doing this manually, hence many opted for much bigger intelligent chargers with balance charge/discharge leads on them because of the inherent risk of doing this manually and taking cells down to zero by mistake.

In other words, bottom balancing is a very limited application scenario which you aren't in. You choose either one or the other method - not both.

For kicks, move the cells around to see if the problem follows the cell, or sticks with the slot. It is also possible that your multimeter isn't accurate. Maybe close enough for hobby work, but when dealing with LFP, where at the high end a 0.1V difference may be a go/no-go trigger, (like setting bleeders values between 3.4/3.5v etc), a Fluke out of the box (yes expensive) can be relied on. So can many other high-quality meters too. Just something to think about even though it may not fix your immediate issue.

Your BMS voltage readings can be off too. Let there be ONE standard to rule over all others. When doing LFP, a trusted meter is a must. Do you trust yours? :)
 
I also hesitate to mention this because it has been hashed out and covered in noise in the 7000+ message long compression thread...

Is there any difference if you just have the compression comfortably snug, and not "calibrated" ?
 
I also hesitate to mention this because it has been hashed out and covered in noise in the 7000+ message long compression thread...

Is there any difference if you just have the compression comfortably snug, and not "calibrated" ?
The compression is an easy task for me anyway, need to compress until the circuit board fits comfortably on top to connect. Then just enough ump so if the band or tape loosens just a hair you haven't lost your circuit board.
 
Cool - now I know where the idea of bottom balancing came in. I've done it many times - but not for what we are doing here.

History - in the old days of diy EV's, bottom balancing was very popular. The reason being is that you would be only a block from home when your LVD would kick in.

But instead of pushing the EV a block to home, you would turn off the LVD, and limp back to your garage. The idea was that by doing so at bottom balance, all of the cells would hit the bottom at the same time, and non would go into reverse-polarity and be instantly trashed if they were out of balance at the bottom.

Most bottom balancers took their cells down to 2.7v, waited a day for the voltage to recover, discharge again and wait another day, discharge again and wait, and then proclaim that they were truly bottom balanced. But you are taking a big risk doing this manually, hence many opted for much bigger intelligent chargers with balance charge/discharge leads on them because of the inherent risk of doing this manually and taking cells down to zero by mistake.

In other words, bottom balancing is a very limited application scenario which you aren't in. You choose either one or the other method - not both.

For kicks, move the cells around to see if the problem follows the cell, or sticks with the slot. It is also possible that your multimeter isn't accurate. Maybe close enough for hobby work, but when dealing with LFP, where at the high end a 0.1V difference may be a go/no-go trigger, (like setting bleeders values between 3.4/3.5v etc), a Fluke out of the box (yes expensive) can be relied on. So can many other high-quality meters too. Just something to think about even though it may not fix your immediate issue.

Your BMS voltage readings can be off too. Let there be ONE standard to rule over all others. When doing LFP, a trusted meter is a must. Do you trust yours? :)
I've decided not to worry so much about bottom balancing since most of the time if needed to be recharged it should be in the happy medium of inbetween and not bottoming out. Just didn't know and wanted to verify and do everything I can so if this doesn't work out when the cell arrives, hoping this Friday they can't say I missed a step or did everything I can and will get a full refund and they pay the shipping back. Then I am on the drawing board again since the project was dependent on 300 ah not 150ah.
 
Yeah, don't bottom balance because this is not your application.

I also notice that BatteryEvo state that they use "Overstock, Repurposed, and Surplus cells". Cool that they are upfront honest.

It just means that don't be surprised if all the cells don't match up for capacity and internal resistance together. There may be a slight skew away from lab perfection, and the diy'er should be prepared to accept and compensate for that by various means.

For example, did you clean your terminals before attaching the bms board with a non-soapy, non-metallic, NEW rough surface like kitchen scrubber? Maybe apply a SMALL dab of No-Alox and screw down? I think that's an important step that they miss in the video to make it seem plug-n-play.
 
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