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teach me the roll of the BMS!!!

Urge38

New Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2023
Messages
233
Location
London Uk
Hi People

I get the BMS keeps each cell balanced.
BUT does it control over voltage or under voltage??

and is all DC voltage the same???

That last question sounds stupid as I am typing it, but I was thinking along the lines of a charger for wet lead acid compared to lithium.

you see, I have a schneider conext XW inverter charger.
from factory, it is set to charge wet lead acid,

at the moment, I cant get into the setting to chance this, as I need a coms box or sorts (insight home)

I was wondering how the BMS in my batteries would handle the charge from the Schneider with the factory pre-set charging paramotors???
 
A BMS is a Battery Manager. It manages & monitors the cells within a battery pack. It's primary purpose is to ensure that cells neer go below or above the "Allowable Voltage Range" which is from 2.500 to 3.650 Volts per cell. If the cells go out of that range they will suffer damage. Now LFP has a "Working Voltage Range" (just like every other chemistry) which is from 3.000-3.400 Volts per cell. This is because the chemistry has a Very FLAT Voltage Curve and this is the Range that delivers the actual specified AH from the cells.

The BMS will also monitor the battery pack Temperature and if Below 0C or above 55C Temp it will cutoff charge/discharge (Some BMS will allow a lower temp discharge which is OK to -20C Temp. LFP CANNOT BE CHARGED Below Freeing Temp!

SmartBMS can do more things like Bluetooth Interface & Device Interface to Inverters (Not all BMS' can interact with Inverters or only selected models). They also usually incorporate some form of Balancing. Passive Balancing only burns off excess voltage from cells that are higher than the others. This is pretty much useless on cells above 100AH - it is intended for smaller cell sizes. Active Balancing actually moves voltage from High Cells to Low Cells and this is far more effective. A rule of thumb for Active Balancers is to have 1A per 100AH of Capacity, so a 280AH Battery can comfortably use a 2A to 3A Active Balancer. This will keep cells within 0.010 - 0.020 volts between them (most are programmable).

LFP doe NOT EVER use Equalize !!!
It is Strictly CC (Constant Current)/CV (Constant Voltage)Charging
Where Float is CV which is when the battery cells get topped off & balanced internally.
* Active Balancing SHOULD start at 3.300Vpc so as to stay ahead of any imbalances and to prevent a large "job" at the end of charging cycle... Remember that Active MOVES power and does ot waste it. It will only run when cells reach a certain (programmable) voltage delta difference.

Please provide Make/Model of Battery Pack(s) you have,
Make / Model of BMS if known,
Specifics on your SCC and the Inverter/Charger

LFP is the closest Lithium Based chemistry to Lead Acid and essentially mimicks FLA with regards to charge profile.
Using a conservative profile and staying within the working voltage range + the little extra that is safe to use.
* Note that BMS Low Voltage Cutoff must be set, so that even if cutoff for low volts under load, to allow them to recover to a point where they can take charge without manual intervention. The operable voltage range is 2.800-3.450
12V: 4 cells, 11.2V - 13.8V
24V: 8 cells, 22.4V - 27.6V
48V: 16 cells, 44.8V - 55.2V
Bulk/Absorb up to the High Voltage Side shown above.
Float to same Hi Voltage -0.1V so 13.7, 27.5, 55.1

EndAmps/TailCurrent (when to switch to Float) is calculated as follows:
100AH X 0.05 = 5A or 280AH X 0.05 = 14A
If you have multiple packs in parallel (same sized) the EndAmps stays the same... If you have big/small packs then there is another formula for averaging it.
YES you CAN have different AH Packs in Parallel without issue.
YES you can add Battery Packs into your bank over time without issues (quite unlike FLA).
* BEST is t stay "Native" 12V Battery for 12V system, 24V for 24V system and 48V battery for 48V System... So NOT do the series batteries with LFP, it's a nasty path to trod.

Hope it helps & Good Luck,
Grab the resources from my Signature which will help you get more up to speed on LFP - building them, voltage charts & more.
Please Note: I was on FLA seems like forever ago... There is a LOT of stuff that you will have to forget & relearn. Many of the things that affect FLA do not even play with Li. Forget Peukerts Laws and all that... There is a bit of a curve but not bad. BTW: Beware of common Wives Tales that get pushed about... also look at people signatures, if they have no links to their systems etc, sprinkle their advice with lot's of salt.
 
A BMS is a Battery Manager. It manages & monitors the cells within a battery pack. It's primary purpose is to ensure that cells neer go below or above the "Allowable Voltage Range" which is from 2.500 to 3.650 Volts per cell. If the cells go out of that range they will suffer damage. Now LFP has a "Working Voltage Range" (just like every other chemistry) which is from 3.000-3.400 Volts per cell. This is because the chemistry has a Very FLAT Voltage Curve and this is the Range that delivers the actual specified AH from the cells.

The BMS will also monitor the battery pack Temperature and if Below 0C or above 55C Temp it will cutoff charge/discharge (Some BMS will allow a lower temp discharge which is OK to -20C Temp. LFP CANNOT BE CHARGED Below Freeing Temp!

SmartBMS can do more things like Bluetooth Interface & Device Interface to Inverters (Not all BMS' can interact with Inverters or only selected models). They also usually incorporate some form of Balancing. Passive Balancing only burns off excess voltage from cells that are higher than the others. This is pretty much useless on cells above 100AH - it is intended for smaller cell sizes. Active Balancing actually moves voltage from High Cells to Low Cells and this is far more effective. A rule of thumb for Active Balancers is to have 1A per 100AH of Capacity, so a 280AH Battery can comfortably use a 2A to 3A Active Balancer. This will keep cells within 0.010 - 0.020 volts between them (most are programmable).

LFP doe NOT EVER use Equalize !!!
It is Strictly CC (Constant Current)/CV (Constant Voltage)Charging
Where Float is CV which is when the battery cells get topped off & balanced internally.
* Active Balancing SHOULD start at 3.300Vpc so as to stay ahead of any imbalances and to prevent a large "job" at the end of charging cycle... Remember that Active MOVES power and does ot waste it. It will only run when cells reach a certain (programmable) voltage delta difference.

Please provide Make/Model of Battery Pack(s) you have,
Make / Model of BMS if known,
Specifics on your SCC and the Inverter/Charger

LFP is the closest Lithium Based chemistry to Lead Acid and essentially mimicks FLA with regards to charge profile.
Using a conservative profile and staying within the working voltage range + the little extra that is safe to use.
* Note that BMS Low Voltage Cutoff must be set, so that even if cutoff for low volts under load, to allow them to recover to a point where they can take charge without manual intervention. The operable voltage range is 2.800-3.450
12V: 4 cells, 11.2V - 13.8V
24V: 8 cells, 22.4V - 27.6V
48V: 16 cells, 44.8V - 55.2V
Bulk/Absorb up to the High Voltage Side shown above.
Float to same Hi Voltage -0.1V so 13.7, 27.5, 55.1

EndAmps/TailCurrent (when to switch to Float) is calculated as follows:
100AH X 0.05 = 5A or 280AH X 0.05 = 14A
If you have multiple packs in parallel (same sized) the EndAmps stays the same... If you have big/small packs then there is another formula for averaging it.
YES you CAN have different AH Packs in Parallel without issue.
YES you can add Battery Packs into your bank over time without issues (quite unlike FLA).
* BEST is t stay "Native" 12V Battery for 12V system, 24V for 24V system and 48V battery for 48V System... So NOT do the series batteries with LFP, it's a nasty path to trod.

Hope it helps & Good Luck,
Grab the resources from my Signature which will help you get more up to speed on LFP - building them, voltage charts & more.
Please Note: I was on FLA seems like forever ago... There is a LOT of stuff that you will have to forget & relearn. Many of the things that affect FLA do not even play with Li. Forget Peukerts Laws and all that... There is a bit of a curve but not bad. BTW: Beware of common Wives Tales that get pushed about... also look at people signatures, if they have no links to their systems etc, sprinkle their advice with lot's of salt.

and just like that, I am back to square one LOL LOL LOL

I actually thought i was getting somewhere in my learning curve but your reply has shown me how at the VERY START I still am LOL

All jokes aside, MAN DO YOU HAVE SOME KNOWLEDGE!!!!

My Batteries are from Fogstar UK see link https://www.fogstar.co.uk/collections/server-rack-batteries/products/server-rack-battery-48v-5-12kwh
the BMS is Pace

Yes, I am aware not to touch the equalizer button.
When I finally get a Schneider insight home, I will see if I can disable that button (equalizer)

all I am looking to do for now is to charge my Fogstar batteries Via my Schneider XW+ safely until I can find some one to sell/post me a insight home.

I live in the UK and its extremally difficult trying to buy parts and get help or information.

EVEN if you don't get back to me, I am very grateful for the above VERY detailed reply.
A million kind thanks
 
From what I have read, the Frogstar batteries seem pretty good.
I have been at this a while 8 years offgrid now... helped design & install solar greenhouses, lumber mills and much more locally... seems I became a local goto guy for info... my guides, docs and stuff have been circulating the web, even published a few things but I do not promo that and it's under one of my Pen Names which I do NOT disclose either. I also deal directly with some manufacturers (with NDA's) and such...

We do have a LOT of people here using Schneider Gear with LFP and no issues. I do not use Schneider gear so I cannot assist you with that. I use Midnite Solar, Samlex, Victron gear mostly but will use others for purpose for others.

I hear you on the UK Difficulties, quite a mash of issues to deal with made worse by Brexit. I know it has really tested peoples patience & understanding when it comes to the stupid economic blockages. I don't know what the current circus with VAT is between EU & UK on solar goodies but from what I understand it's not that bad.

Now for the purpose of clarity.
I am one who uses LFP within spec & conservatively so. The outcome is to prolong the serviceable lifecycle & capacity for as long as possible without compromising the safety of the cells. This crap costs a LOT so I have to make it last. I felt absolutely horrid when I scrapped my old Rolls Surette FLA Bank ($3500 CAD) and I am not interested in such repeats. For example, there is absolutely no point in charging LFP cells above 3.450V as there is no gain and only wear & tear above that voltage which is the edge of the Working Range. The people who drive their batteries from 2.500-3.650 are NOT doing themselves any favours, but they can so they do and don't appreciate the consequences.

PACE BMS: (Frogstar)
These BMS' are very similar to Seplos, TDT, GobelPower and others.
They are quite a reasonable BMS, passive balancing isn't worth a hoot though. PACE also has a LOCKED BMS so there are many parameters you cannot change and teh password is generally not available. Some have gotten the Passwords and posted them but I don't know them. Search here & on the Web / Youtube too and I'm sure you will find the software & password to let you in.

Myself, I use JKBMS' at this time with all of my packs (I build my own) but I am working with a company on a new BMS that should be going to Test Mode next week... hoping that it will be available in Q4 of this year. This will have support for many inverter/AIO systems. Bluetooth Droid/IOS & PC Software, RS232/485/CanBus will be included, precharge circuit, charge management etc, Can't say more due to NDA's, sorry...
 
Thanks again SteveS

I will be reading your replays a few times so as to let it sink in
Haha, if you do that on here.... you'll be reading forever. 6800+ posts LMAO...
I tend to fill in blanks for readers that come along later. Many people are annoyed with that because it requires more than just "skimming" it.
 

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